Ladies' Grand Prix Final Points Breakdown

[ANW]

the tech caller in SA is a complete jerk, IMO

Couldn't agree more!!! Caroline was caught for underrotations that would have otherwise been neglected at other events, and I, frankly, do not agree with Mier's scores. One has to consider the the events in their entirety to make a decision on who is or should have made the GPF, and looking at Caroline's placements and predicaments (injury, strict technician, bad ice, etc.), I'd say she deserves her spot. Plus, she is more consistent, imo, than either Joannie or Mier.

 

[ChrisH]

OMG, Caroline's going to GPF! Awesome job, Caroline!

And it was well-deserved. Her qualification for the GPF should not have been such a nail-biter.

Callers were clearly MUCH more strict at SA than anywhere else, and as the season went on, the callers got more and more lenient culminating in NHK with the highest relatives scores (in terms of actual skating content).

:yes: If anything, the callers should've been lenient at SA and gotten stricter as the season went on. And we're not just talking about jumps, but also spins and sequences.

Anyway, come World Championship, they will all skate on the same ice, with the same technical and judging panels, and then we'll see how they all stack up against each other! (Well, except for poor Caroline, who won't get to go no matter what... She's the second after Mao to qualify for the GPF and not be age-eligible for the WC, right?)

Caroline is also too young for Four Continents. Argh! And for the World Junior Championships, she'll have to cut one spin and one or more of her transitions in the free skate. Can Ave Maria be trimmed or will she have a different program altogether? :scratch:

To be fair, Zhang should only have two triples downgraded at most in the SA LP: 3T and 3S. That still makes it a 5-triple plus two 2A program, with no falls or pops ...

At CoC, she also delivered a 5-triple plus two 2A program, with two falls (3F and 3Z) instead of two UR's. With both programs she scored under 100. She also delivered two beautiful SP's including 3F/3T's (the downgrade at SA was questionable, especially as they gave her credit for the 3T but not the 3F, bizzare!) .

Yes, the 3S was rightly downgraded. The rest of the downgraded jumps should've been left alone and instead gotten -1 or -2 GoEs. I figure that Caroline would've gotten around 168 at SA with consistent calling and possibly beaten Kimmie and Miki.

About that 3S, it was amazing that Caroline didn't fall. It took amazing reflexes plus flexibility for her to stay on her feet. She landed that 3S during the free skate warmup although it was still underrotated. (She also had a more finished choreographical movement after the landing of her 3Lo+2T+2Lo. In her actual programs, it looks like she loses her balance after that 2Lo. )

I'm not too worried about Caroline's underrotations. I think that she was better rotated at the World Junior Championships than at the JGP events last season. The challenge will be to get enough height to consistently receive positive GoEs. There are 10 jumping elements in total. Getting +1 GoEs on them instead of 0s yields +10 points right there.

Anyway, I think that the qualifiers should've been:
1 Kim
2 Asada
3 Nakano
4 Meissner
5 Zhang
6 Rochette

 

[slutskayafan21]

There are 10 jumping elements in total. Getting +1 GoEs on them instead of 0s yields +10 points right there.

Anyway, I think that the qualifiers should've been:
1 Kim
2 Asada
3 Nakano
4 Meissner
5 Zhang
6 Rochette

There are 7 jumping elements, not 10. Also Caroline will never be a skater who will rely on GOE gained from jumps. The important thing is to fully rotate them and not flutz or lip so they arent downgraded, 0 GOE is fine for her on jumps since she will never be one to rely on GOE from jumps.

 

[feraina]

There are 7 jumping elements, not 10.

SP+LP

 

[Mathman]

We all have our favorites and the skaters we want in the GPF over people we don't in.... the end result is what it is.

I agree 100% with this whole post.

Joannie isn't necessarily my favorite, and I undestand why she isn't there. But she still made less mistakes than others, and clearly belongs at the top. Oh well then, it's shades of Shizuka not making the GPF even when she was the third highest eligible scoring lady....

I think people are making the mistake of thinking that the purpose of the six Grand Prix events is to determine who the best skaters are, then have them all skate against each other to see who is the best. No, that's Worlds.

IMO the purpose of Skate America, Cup of China, etc., is to put on a skating competition. After the events are over there is a grand finale where the winners of the six events square off against each other. But since there are fewer than six individuals who won a gold, you have to let in a few silver and bronze winners to fill up the roster.

It has nothing to do with who skated the best, which caller was tougher, or how many points someone got (except for tie-breakers).

:yes: If anything, the callers should've been lenient at SA and gotten stricter as the season went on. And we're not just talking about jumps, but also spins and sequences.

My impression is the that the ISU has always done it the other way around. They are stricter at the beginning of the season because they are trying to get skaters to improve.

Then when Nationals, Europeans, and Worlds come around, they lower the standards so that the watching world will see higher scores and "cleaner" programs. (That is, the programs won't really be cleaner, but the judges will give out fewer downgrades, edge calls, and negative GOEs to make it seem like they were cleaner.)

Anyway, I think that the qualifiers should've been:
1 Kim
2 Asada
3 Nakano
4 Meissner
5 Zhang
6 Rochette

That's absurd. Kostner got a first and a third. Rochette got a third and a third. Nothing else counts.

There are 7 jumping elements, not 10.

I think ChrisH was talking about the SP and the LP combined.

ETA:...as Feraina just noted.

 

[slutskayafan21]

SP+LP

OK sorry, I get you now.

 

[ChrisH]

Also Caroline will never be a skater who will rely on GOE gained from jumps. The important thing is to fully rotate them and not flutz or lip so they arent downgraded, 0 GOE is fine for her on jumps since she will never be one to rely on GOE from jumps.

I'd say that Caroline won't likely be a skater who relies on getting +2 GoEs on jumps. She has great control and I believe she will rely on consistency and power rather than overwhelming power. Caroline is already getting between +0.5 and +1.0 GoEs on her good jumps. (See her World Junior Championship protocols.) She is still young and adding to her jump arsenal. She might be the youngest lady to have done a clean 3F+3T in an international competition. Recall that she got a +0.4 and +0.6 GoE on it at the CoC. There's no reason, barring injury, why all of her jumps won't improve in the next couple of years. Her flutz (more like a flatz) is not that bad and might simply be related to difficulty in rotating it rather than due to poor technique. I would not be surprised if Caroline gets a consistent +1 GoE 3A by the 2009-2010 Olympics season. Caroline doesn't need to risk injuries trying to get +2 GoEs because she has such potential for great PC scores.

 

[enlight78]

I think you should get extra qualification points based or your score total.
If you have the highest score total you get an extra 15 pts next is 13 pts and so on. Skaters who scores are close or has a difference less then 10 points should be treated as a tie due to the facts scores come from different events

for example Yu Na kim already has 30 qualification points and she get an extra 15 for having the highest score.
Rochette already has 22 points and would get an extra 11 points for having the 3rd highest score along with Yukari.

 

[ChrisH]

My impression is the that the ISU has always done it the other way around. They are stricter at the beginning of the season because they are trying to get skaters to improve.

Then when Nationals, Europeans, and Worlds come around, they lower the standards so that the watching world will see higher scores and "cleaner" programs. (That is, the programs won't really be cleaner, but the judges will give out fewer downgrades, edge calls, and negative GOEs to make it seem like they were cleaner.)

Okay, but that won't work with only being strict in the first GP. They should be equally strict (gradual stricter) in all of the GPs and return to "normal" for the GPF, Nationals, and the ISU Championships.

That's absurd. Kostner got a first and a third. Rochette got a third and a third. Nothing else counts.

The current rules (emphasizing winning) did make qualifying for the GPF very interesting this year. In principle though, I don't like a system that creates shortages to raise interest. Ideally, I think if there were 8 GPs (and 8 ladies qualifiers), almost everybody would've been happier. I also liked Joesitz's idea of having "Opens". Geez, it looks like I want to see more skating events.

---

I think you should get extra qualification points based or your score total.
If you have the highest score total you get an extra 15 pts next is 13 pts and so on. Skaters who scores are close or has a difference less then 10 points should be treated as a tie due to the facts scores come from different events

for example Yu Na kim already has 30 qualification points and she get an extra 15 for having the highest score.
Rochette already has 22 points and would get an extra 11 points for having the 3rd highest score along with Yukari.

Hmm ...

1 Kim 30+15=45
2 Asada 30+13=43
3 Nakano 26+11=37
4 Meissner 28+7=35
5 Rochette 22+9=31
6 Kostner 26+3=29
7 Zhang 24+4=28
8 Meier 22+5=27
9 Ando 22+0=22

It's an improvement IMO, but I don't totally like it. It doesn't account for the strict calling at SA.

 

[ChrisH]

On further thought, the big US sports have wild card systems. I know that football and baseball do. I think that basketball does too and possibly also hockey. Winners in each division automatically qualify and overall records determine the wildcard qualifiers, so that teams stuck in tougher divisions can still get into the playoffs. Hockey seems to have a underdog (a wildcard team) win the championships every year.

ETA: I guess Mathman would say that a wildcard system would apply more towards the World Championships rather than the GPF.

 

[fourclover]

You're actually going to try and convince me that Kimmie, Caroline, and Carolina out-skated Joannie in the Grand Prix Series this season? You HAVE to be joking . . . the skating speaks for itself, regardless of the callers, the judges, the ice, whatever. There's no question Joannie out-jumped them all and her presentation, maturity, and style are very much appreciated in my eyes. The weakest part of her skating are her spins, but she was still better than those 3 IMO.

Joannie may have been good in her long but she lost all her points by bombing her short program at CoR. Consistency helps.

 

[saltypig]

If you look at other sports - in order to get into the playoffs it is the most number of wins in the season and not the most goals or touchdowns scored in the season.

Besides those that had to skate two events in a row do not have the benefit of those who had more time to rest in between events and then those that skated in the beginning of the season did not have have the benefit of more practice time than those that skated in the later events. How do you account for that?

Bottom line - like it or not that's how the cookie crumbles. I'd love to see Sarah, Joannie and Miki in the GPF finals but unfortunately that didn't happen.

 

[slutskayafan21]

Caroline is already getting between +0.5 and +1.0 GoEs on her good jumps. (See her World Junior Championship protocols.)

World Juniors are not judged the same way as Senior events though.

 

[kikakiks]

I know I'm going to be really impopular...
Please do follow my reasoning with points not scores total (it's useless to talk about it since these are the rules)

You are blaming this system as not in favor of Zhang, but she has been pretty lucky to get to the final. First, her assignments were designed such as to get at least bronze in both. Then, she was lucky about Kostner meltdown (if she didn't melt down that bad she would have been third). Then, she's lucky about Rochette bronze, then Meier, then Ando meltdown.

Boy, this girl is definitely blessed with fortune! If the girls above (except Rochette, who's the really unlucky one...) had skated their average she'd be the third out.

Another lucky one is Kostner, with two bad competitions she's in the final (however in NHK I still believe she played it safe)

 

[bekalc]

World Juniors are not judged the same way as Senior events though.

That's frankly ridiculous to say when the last two reigning world champs won the Grand Prix Finals, as reigning world champs...

The issue is that the field is now stronger than it was when Yu-na/Mao came on the scene (because there is Yu-na/Mao) and Caroline's jumps aren't as strong as Yu-na/Mao's were back then.

Joannie may have been good in her long but she lost all her points by bombing her short program at CoR. Consistency helps.

That just annoys me. Joannie's overall scores were 17 points higher than Meissner's and 29 points higher than Kostner and Zhang's. I get this is a tournment what have you. So yeah it's fine. But the scores say that Joannie was a lot more consistent than Meissner, Kostner, and Zhang. If Meissner, Kostner, and Zhang had Joannie's events, they wouldn't be anywhere near the Grand Prix Finals. Yes, Joannie needed to hit a clean short, but the fact still remains that in order to get the silver medal at her events, she needed scores that would have won Skate America/ NHK trophy, and would have easily given her the silver at Cup of China. For example, while Zhang had cleaner short programs, she still had more falls on the GP then Rochette had. Same goes for Meissner, and Kostner.

 

[feraina]

Then, she was lucky about Kostner meltdown (if she didn't melt down that bad she would have been third). Then, she's lucky about Rochette bronze, then Meier, then Ando meltdown.

Everything in life is a measure chance, a measure your own hard work. Caroline skated well enough so that she was there to take advantages of the other's meltdowns. Rochette doomed herself with her SP's. Meier skated poor LP's in both GP's. And Ando was given a very weak field at NHK -- she completely destroyed her own chances with that last LP. So if these missed out due to not bad luck, but their own mistakes, how can you then call someone who skated well enough to go in their place as merely being "lucky"?

In truth, Miki was held up a lot at SA. Caroline should've beaten her for the silver, and her qualification for the GPF should never have been as precarious as it was.

 

[bekalc]

Everything in life is a measure chance, a measure your own hard work. Caroline skated well enough so that she was there to take advantages of the other's meltdowns. Rochette doomed herself with her SP's. Meier skated poor LP's in both GP's. And Ando was given a very weak field at NHK -- she completely destroyed her own chances with that last LP. So if these missed out due to not bad luck, but their own mistakes, how can you then call someone who skated well enough to go in their place as merely being "lucky"?

In truth, Miki was held up a lot at SA. Caroline should've beaten her for the silver, and her qualification for the GPF should never have been as precarious as it was.

Miki had more clean jumps than Zhang had at Skate America. I don't think she was held up.. (And Miki had an underrotated jump too)

Sure Joannie's bad shorts her, but well the point of the matter is that if she had a weaker field she would have been in the GPF.... Still this is a good lesson for Joannie because if she wants to medal at worlds, she will face those skaters and she has to do cleaner longs.

But Fairly, I'm not sure how you can say luck wasn't involved when Joannie's scores are much,much,much higher than the last 3 GPF qualifiers.

 

[Mathman]

If Meissner, Kostner, and Zhang had Joannie's events, they wouldn't be anywhere near the Grand Prix Finals.

If.

The fact is, we don't know what might have happened if what did happen hadn't happened. It is what it is. :yes:

 

[feraina]

The fact is, we don't know what might have happened if what did happen hadn't happened. It is what it is. :yes:

Amen.

Anyway, no matter how the final six had played out, there would've been a lot of whining and moaning.

 

[bekalc]

If.

The fact is, we don't know what might have happened if what did happen hadn't happened. It is what it is. :yes:

I don't disagree with the results of the GPF, and Honestly I'm more annoyed with Kostner making it, after the dismalness of NHK than I am with Zhang. But I think it's ridiculous to point out Joannie's shorts as underserving because well given her skates she still scored much higher than 3 of the competitors in the GPF. If everyone skates like the did in the GP

Its should be a big gap between Yu-na, Mao, and Yukari and the rest of the field. Becuase Yukari's scores are closer to Mao's and then they are to the rest of the group...Interestingly enough Mao's scores are closer to Yukari's, then Yu-na's.

Of course what can you do though? If Joannie had skated better at worlds last year, she wouldn't have had to face Yukari.. So it is her own fault there. Kostner earned the right to not have to skate against Yukari. So did Meissner.

Hopefully though Joannie's high scores this season, will put her in great stead with the judges come Worlds time. Because right now, she's clearly the fourth best lady in the world scores wise.