Ladies Free Skate

[BelleFilleYuna]

He competed at SC and NHK. I don't remember how he placed, but some of his jumps were excellent.

Thx, Wrlmy!!
I was only following the last groupe of Men's event this season. Perhaps that's why I don't recall him.

 

[floskate]

Mao made the most mistakes, and she wound up last after the SP. But her biggest mistake was popping the 3F, a jump that ALL the ladies did in their SP.

Maybe Mao makes more mistakes because she puts too much pressure on herself and she allows herself to become too emotionally invested in what she does on the ice. She badly wanted to beat Yu-Na---too badly, and that's what did her in, not her technical content.

Are you a mind reader? How do you know Mao wanted to beat Yu Na badly and that's why she screwed the SP? She screwed the SP because she has had a mental block on her combo since Worlds where she first made an error on it. It hasn't been clean since then. I think missing the lutz was just a fluke. She stumbled going into her step entrance, lost speed and room and...that's that. Yu-Na has NOTHING to do with it. Mao herself has said how frustrated she is with her SP issues. (See crying fit after TEB SP)

Anyway what a wierd comp. I'm sure Mao is just delighted that she was able to come back with her best LP since Worlds and whether you like her or not - and some of you have made your feelings VERY clear in this thread :sheesh: - you have to give credit to a girl who can totally revamp her LP and deliver a jump layout that she's never attempted before and land everything at the most important event of the season so far. THAT takes guts. Extra props to her for sorting her toeloop technique. That is only going to get better from now on.

What's so exciting for me is that she still has so much to improve upon. She hasn't sat back and just relied on her jumps. She's working to improve and increase all her elements. Plus she has more mature programs and her personality is coming out more. I'm willing to bet she'll just go home and work even harder after reading the protocols. Rather than a kick in the teeth, it'll be more motivational for sure.

 

[chuckm]

Are you a mind reader? How do you know Mao wanted to beat Yu Na badly and that's why she screwed the SP? She screwed the SP because she has had a mental block on her combo since Worlds where she first made an error on it. It hasn't been clean since then. I think missing the lutz was just a fluke. She stumbled going into her step entrance, lost speed and room and...that's that. Yu-Na has NOTHING to do with it. Mao herself has said how frustrated she is with her SP issues. (See crying fit after TEB SP)

Anyway what a wierd comp. I'm sure Mao is just delighted that she was able to come back with her best LP since Worlds and whether you like her or not - and some of you have made your feelings VERY clear in this thread :sheesh: - you have to give credit to a girl who can totally revamp her LP and deliver a jump layout that she's never attempted before and land everything at the most important event of the season so far. THAT takes guts. Extra props to her for sorting her toeloop technique. That is only going to get better from now on.

What's so exciting for me is that she still has so much to improve upon. She hasn't sat back and just relied on her jumps. She's working to improve and increase all her elements. Plus she has more mature programs and her personality is coming out more. I'm willing to bet she'll just go home and work even harder after reading the protocols. Rather than a kick in the teeth, it'll be more motivational for sure.

This was a response to a post by a poster who constantly ridicules Yu-Na Kim and makes ridiculous statements. In this case she said Mao was under more pressure because she had harder elements. :frown2: Implying, of course, that Kim was under less pressure because she had easier ones.

I happen to like both Yu-Na and Mao and think they are both fantastic skaters.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

No, Nakano did not lip. This is a good example that Technical Specialists(in this case Todd Sand) are not so reliable. Human naked eyes can not detect edge errors correctly. Flutzers will never lip. That is common sense. Nakano maybe used the out edge during the approach but changed to the inside edge when she really took off. Todd Sand's naked eyes could not detect the change of edges because Nakano did so quickly. I strongly recommend to use slow motion videos. Or forget about the edge calls all together.

Agree whole heartedly. Human naked eyes cannot detect edge errors correctly. I like that phrase.

Until the Sport allows Instant Replay for everyone in the arena and throuh the lens of the TV cameras then any statements by fans that a skater has made a wrong edge error, would be in his own mind and not necessarily a correct call.

It's not just my opinion. It's common sense. Instant Replay is shown in every Sport except FS.

Joe

 

[fourclover]

I think his/her logic is reasonable. If you do more difficult elements, of course the pressure is higher.

Yeah...RIGHT That's why Mao botched her SP with a fall in her 3-3 combo and completely left out her flutz skating late (5th out of 6) in the group while she did a 3A, two 3-3's with no falls in the rest of the jumps skating FIRST in her LP. I mean she could also win the inconsistency award among the top ladies. Mao is the kind of skater MOST affected by the ORDER of who skates when AND HOW others do in their skates too. If Yukari or Yuna does well in her skate and Mao skates after her, Mao bombs her skate. If Yukari or Yuna bombs her skate and Mao skates after her, Mao is stellar.

 

[Oscilla]

Yeah...RIGHT That's why Mao botched her SP with a fall in her 3-3 combo and completely left out her flutz skating late (5th out of 6) in the group while she did a 3A, two 3-3's with no falls in the rest of the jumps skating FIRST in her LP. I mean she could also win the inconsistency award among the top ladies. Mao is the kind of skater MOST affected by the ORDER of who skates when AND HOW others do in their skates too. If Yukari or Yuna does well in her skate and Mao skates after her, Mao bombs her skate. If Yukari or Yuna bombs her skate and Mao skates after her, Mao is stellar.

I don't think it's true.

Mao had problem with 3-3 in the short in competition every time since Worlds - a mental block, as someone in this thread said before. In the LP, OTOH, she was pretty clean in every competition this year. She increased the difficulty of LP in every competition as her physical form improved.
As for 3Lz in the SP - if you watch her SP, you'll see that she simply trips on the steps leading into it - her boot just skips on the ice as if it was uneven. She lost balance for a fraction of second, and it was enough to run out of the rink space.

The second reason why there is no evidence that mao is seriously affected by how the rest of the field is that... she pays no attention to other skaters when the competition is on. She is too concentrated on her own thoughts - she said that in an interview (plus she said that sometimes she thinks too much and ends up making miskates). Only when the competition is over, she rewatches other skaters' performances.

I recommend reading Mao's interview about the "narrow bridge". When reading it, you really feel how much pressure she puts on herself to become a "perfect skater". In fact, in almost every interview before competition she mentions that she wants to be "perfect" in the competition.

Raphael also said (at TEB) that Mao doesn't care for placements as much as she cares for going perfectly, because "she loves skating, as simple as that".

In this case she said Mao was under more pressure because she had harder elements. Implying, of course, that Kim was under less pressure because she had easier ones.

I don't think she implied anything about YuNa or anyone else, she just stated an obvious (for anyone who tried skating) fact.

Perhaps it's not so much outside pressure as inner pressure and nerves. In times when I was still skating if I was asked to do a simple program with some single jumps and simple spins I could turn it into a somewhat fun performance. But if I was asked to go for doubles, more difficult footwork and spins, I would probably totally fell apart, even though I was able to do those elements in separation.
Of course, there was no outside pressure on me at all - nobody really expected me to do well and I never competed seriously. But still, I was anxious that I would fall, than if I fall my attempts at 'artistic' expression will just look ridiculous, that I can make a mistake on footfork and splat, that the on-lookers will only laugh at me.

The more difficult and new to the skater the elements are, the stronger is the anxiety, and outside pressure only makes it many times worse. The media do not care if the skater falls on 2A or 4Lz - if you fall, you fall, and very few people will acknowledge how much the skater put at stake by attempting it. All the skater will achieve is a photo taken during a fall, usually in some compromising position.

There is a reason why when a skater gives up a more difficult move in favour of doing a simpler, but less risky program is called "going safe". The more risk there is, the more "nervous" the skater will feel.

 

[fairly4]

Actually I found the scores for the womens more correct.

Sure Yu-Na Kim was overmarked in the short but not by much she should had a 62 or 63. In the long she should had a 130. not a 132. Yu-na Kim skated a bit more sloppy than normal.

Mao Asada short program should have been from low to mid 50's--not the high 50's. Maos long was spot on.
I noticed compared to last year Both Mao and Yu-na aren't stretching like they use to.

The rest of the scores for Caroline Zhang, Carolina Kostner, Kimmie and Yukari was about right in both the long and short-they all could have been maybe a point higher but not much.

 

[fourclover]

I don't think it's true.

Mao had problem with 3-3 in the short in competition every time since Worlds - a mental block, as someone in this thread said before. In the LP, OTOH, she was pretty clean in every competition this year. She increased the difficulty of LP in every competition as her physical form improved.
As for 3Lz in the SP - if you watch her SP, you'll see that she simply trips on the steps leading into it - her boot just skips on the ice as if it was uneven. She lost balance for a fraction of second, and it was enough to run out of the rink space.

The second reason why there is no evidence that mao is seriously affected by how the rest of the field is that... she pays no attention to other skaters when the competition is on. She is too concentrated on her own thoughts - she said that in an interview (plus she said that sometimes she thinks too much and ends up making miskates). Only when the competition is over, she rewatches other skaters' performances.

I recommend reading Mao's interview about the "narrow bridge". When reading it, you really feel how much pressure she puts on herself to become a "perfect skater". In fact, in almost every interview before competition she mentions that she wants to be "perfect" in the competition.

Raphael also said (at TEB) that Mao doesn't care for placements as much as she cares for going perfectly, because "she loves skating, as simple as that".




I don't think she implied anything about YuNa or anyone else, she just stated an obvious (for anyone who tried skating) fact.

Perhaps it's not so much outside pressure as inner pressure and nerves. In times when I was still skating if I was asked to do a simple program with some single jumps and simple spins I could turn it into a somewhat fun performance. But if I was asked to go for doubles, more difficult footwork and spins, I would probably totally fell apart, even though I was able to do those elements in separation.
Of course, there was no outside pressure on me at all - nobody really expected me to do well and I never competed seriously. But still, I was anxious that I would fall, than if I fall my attempts at 'artistic' expression will just look ridiculous, that I can make a mistake on footfork and splat, that the on-lookers will only laugh at me.

The more difficult and new to the skater the elements are, the stronger is the anxiety, and outside pressure only makes it many times worse. The media do not care if the skater falls on 2A or 4Lz - if you fall, you fall, and very few people will acknowledge how much the skater put at stake by attempting it. All the skater will achieve is a photo taken during a fall, usually in some compromising position.

There is a reason why when a skater gives up a more difficult move in favour of doing a simpler, but less risky program is called "going safe". The more risk there is, the more "nervous" the skater will feel.

What you are giving is more of a "textbook" theoretical "ideal" answer to what would go on in a skater's mind. Sure, the skater SHOULD concentrate on her own skate coming up. But can you be SURE that Mao doesn't know at all about or care about what went on with other skaters' skates before her? All a skater needs is ONE SECOND to figure out how others did before her and her mental state before entering her OWN skate could change 180 degrees. This is not just Mao I'm talking about. I've been watchin figure skating since 1984 and I'm seeing this between top rivals ever since. I DO however notice LESS of this in pairs competition - I think having a partner helps somewhat to calm your nerves.

 

[Oscilla]

What you are giving is more of a "textbook" theoretical "ideal" answer to what would go on in a skater's mind. Sure, the skater SHOULD concentrate on her own skate coming up. But can you be SURE that Mao doesn't know at all about or care about what went on with other skaters' skates before her? (..)

1. Mao's own words.
2. Raphael's words about Mao.
3. Maniacally watching every fluff piece about my favourite skaters and their competitors.

Mao always seems very "detached" from the world around her before she skates, sometimes not even noticing when someone calls out to her.
I don't think think it's an 'ideal' situation at all. It's not always a healthy concentration, but rather thinking, re-thinking, trying to prepare for every possible situation, trying to imagine what can go wrong and how to escape from that... I think it actually distracts the skater from his/her own performance. Mao herself said that she often thinks "too much" and aims to "stop thinking about doing it and just do it". But I think the harder she tries, the more pressure she puts on herself.

 

[chuckm]

All this discussion about 'pressure on Mao' just goes to show that it is NOT the difficult elements that create the pressure, it's her need to be perfect. If you think back to the 2005-2006 season, Mao was landing the 3A and her 3/3 and skating perfect programs, easily and without pressure. Of course, that was before the tech team started it's crusade on edges and urs, and before Yu-Na and Miki challenged her on the World stage.

Now that her technique is being called into question and she has a serious rival, she has experienced a loss in confidence and IMO that is what has her close to pressure overload. She may focus more on the individual elements as they come up in a program, but the main pressure is her obsession with being perfect. She is in danger of becoming like Sasha, grieving over her mistakes while she's still skating. The main advantage that Yu-Na has over Mao is that she doesn't let mistakes affect the rest of her performance.

 

[Oscilla]

All this discussion about 'pressure on Mao' just goes to show that it is NOT the difficult elements that create the pressure, it's her need to be perfect. If you think back to the 2005-2006 season, Mao was landing the 3A and her 3/3 and skating perfect programs, easily and without pressure.

But she had no 3/3 in the LP, she had much less transitions, her spins and footwork were not half as intricate. While naturally graceful, her upper body was not overly involved in the choreography. 3/3 in the SP and 3A in the LP were her only risky elements.
Now her programs became really complicated, and it's element after element; steps here, spins there, some transitions everywhere.
Plus she got hit by a growth spurt at the beginning of 06-07 season and lost 3A for a while, and was injured at the beginning of 07-08, so her early-season problems might be a whole different kettle of fish. Of course, loss of consistency causes loss of confidence, but I don't think it's in "I might lose" way. Mao and Raphael repeatedely said that Mao's gold is to become a perfect skater, and the way in which Mao practices seems to highlight the fact that she cares more about improving herself than winning.

I was so~ happy. I was happy to win, but I was even happier when I finished my performance. The happiness that I feel when I skated a perfect program is indescribable. It might be nice to win a gold medal, but what I truly want is that sense of accomplishment and the feeling that I skated well.

 

[emma]

I...
As for 3Lz in the SP - if you watch her SP, you'll see that she simply trips on the steps leading into it - her boot just skips on the ice as if it was uneven. She lost balance for a fraction of second, and it was enough to run out of the rink space.

.

This is true - it was a weird fluke - question is, I guess, was there a lack of concentration or were nerves over taking her after doing the best combo she has done all season in the short - or was it just a fluke or something wrong with the ice right there? I guess we can't know this - but I feel for Mao as she is now got this reputation of a bad short program skater that she has to shake.

 

[Oscilla]

This is true - it was a weird fluke - question is, I guess, was there a lack of concentration or were nerves over taking her after doing the best combo she has done all season in the short - or was it just a fluke or something wrong with the ice right there?

The angle is too sharp to tell for sure - but when I watched the better quality version it really looked as if there was some groove in the ice that she slightly tripped over. If this was the case, it would be really ironic, because after the first practice she said that "the ice feels wierd" and "the rink is small" (but she hoped to adjust to it before the competition).
Her own choreography worked against her after that - the Asahi guy wondered if she'll be able to put it later in the program, but Shizuka doubted it as "the elements come right after one another".
A shame, really. But maybe it will push the Mao team to rethink the jump layout in the SP (if Tarasova didn't scold them already... ).

 

[emma]

The angle is too sharp to tell for sure - but when I watched the better quality version it really looked as if there was some groove in the ice that she slightly tripped over. If this was the case, it would be really ironic, because after the first practice she said that "the ice feels wierd" and "the rink is small" (but she hoped to adjust to it before the competition).
Her own choreography worked against her after that - the Asahi guy wondered if she's be able to put it later in the program, but Shizuka doubted it as "the elements some right after one another".
A shame, really. But maybe it will push the Mao team to rethink the jump layout in the SP (if Tarasova didn't scold them already... ).

I remember when she had the little trip before the jump that didn't jump and i was like - NOOOOOOOOOOO -- WHAAAAAAAAAAT -- and then I thought to myself, my god, and she doesn't have anywhere to put it in without leaving out something else....I doubt, however, that having a plan B for the short is a good idea knowing what at least one if not other competitors are capable of --- she just needs to execute her short. She is amazing - I think she will do it at least once (nationals?) if not twice (nationals and worlds) this season.

(ps I think Yu NA and many others are amazing too...I'm just talking about Mao here).

 

[fourclover]

All this discussion about 'pressure on Mao' just goes to show that it is NOT the difficult elements that create the pressure, it's her need to be perfect. If you think back to the 2005-2006 season, Mao was landing the 3A and her 3/3 and skating perfect programs, easily and without pressure. Of course, that was before the tech team started it's crusade on edges and urs, and before Yu-Na and Miki challenged her on the World stage.

Now that her technique is being called into question and she has a serious rival, she has experienced a loss in confidence and IMO that is what has her close to pressure overload. She may focus more on the individual elements as they come up in a program, but the main pressure is her obsession with being perfect. She is in danger of becoming like Sasha, grieving over her mistakes while she's still skating. The main advantage that Yu-Na has over Mao is that she doesn't let mistakes affect the rest of her performance.

You are absolutely right about Mao losing confidence because her technique is under scrutiny and she's got Yuna and Yukari (since Miki is out) besides her.

 

[fourclover]

But she had no 3/3 in the LP, she had much less transitions, her spins and footwork were not half as intricate. While naturally graceful, her upper body was not overly involved in the choreography. 3/3 in the SP and 3A in the LP were her only risky elements.
Now her programs became really complicated, and it's element after element; steps here, spins there, some transitions everywhere.
Plus she got hit by a growth spurt at the beginning of 06-07 season and lost 3A for a while, and was injured at the beginning of 07-08, so her early-season problems might be a whole different kettle of fish. Of course, loss of consistency causes loss of confidence, but I don't think it's in "I might lose" way. Mao and Raphael repeatedely said that Mao's gold is to become a perfect skater, and the way in which Mao practices seems to highlight the fact that she cares more about improving herself than winning.

So you're saying that Mao's goal to become this "perfect" skater and the fact that her program is loaded with difficulty explains why she gets SO NERVOUS that she botches her program in REAL competitions yet lands everything perfect during her practices? If her ONLY concern is doing best for herself (Yuna says the same about her goal by the way) then she should be consistent during practice AND actual competition. The fact that she's CONSCIOUS of her rivals explains why she's so great in practices AND only in competitions where she doesn't have to witness her rivals scores.

 

[Wrlmy]

Why is this "quest for the answer for Mao's inconsistency" so necessary?

 

[bekalc]

Why is this "quest for the answer for Mao's inconsistency" so necessary?

I agree.. I think Mao is still getting use to dealing with the pressure etc...

 

[mylastduchess]

Yeah...RIGHT That's why Mao botched her SP with a fall in her 3-3 combo and completely left out her flutz skating late (5th out of 6) in the group while she did a 3A, two 3-3's with no falls in the rest of the jumps skating FIRST in her LP. I mean she could also win the inconsistency award among the top ladies. Mao is the kind of skater MOST affected by the ORDER of who skates when AND HOW others do in their skates too. If Yukari or Yuna does well in her skate and Mao skates after her, Mao bombs her skate. If Yukari or Yuna bombs her skate and Mao skates after her, Mao is stellar.

Yes a 3F/3L is harder than a 3L/3T. Mao skated before Yuna which was her only real threat in the competition so your logic fails!

 

[bekalc]

Yes a 3F/3L is harder than a 3L/3T. Mao skated before Yuna which was her only real threat in the competition so your logic fails!

It's harder but according to the base value, not by much.