Raise The Senior Ladies Age To 17 Please!

[Parksideprince]

Every time I post this I get attacked but this is ridiculous. I'm watching Cup of Russia and these two 15yos are doing triple axels and quads with arms over their heads. Here's my problem. What happens is these girls come to the surface, with their tricks and snatch world and Olympic medals from ladies that have devoted years to the sport. Then they hit a growth spurt and retire OR can't do the tricks anymore and fall down the leaderboards. Skaters like Elizabeth Tuktamushava, Wakabi Haguchi, Bradie Tennell and Karen Chen have worked hard and if these 15yos come in snatch the medals and bounce, where's the fairness in that? How are they senior when they're bodies aren't fully developed? I didn't like it when Tara Lipinski won in 1998 and bounced to be honest. Insert hateful comment below.

 

[moonvine]

Every time I post this I get attacked but this is ridiculous. I'm watching Cup of Russia and these two 15yos are doing triple axels and quads with arms over their heads. Here's my problem. What happens is these girls come to the surface, with their tricks and snatch world and Olympic medals from ladies that have devoted years to the sport. Then they hit a growth spurt and retire OR can't do the tricks anymore and fall down the leaderboards. Skaters like Elizabeth Tuktamushava, Wakabi Haguchi, Bradie Tennell and Karen Chen have worked hard and if these 15yos come in snatch the medals and bounce, where's the fairness in that? How are they senior when they're bodies aren't fully developed? I didn't like it when Tara Lipinski won in 1998 and bounced to be honest. Insert hateful comment below.

I would like Women’s skating to be the skating of women, not young girls. If the scoring system were set up better this would not be an issue.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

17, no.

16, yes.

And while we're at it, lower the maximum age for Juniors to 18 across the board.

Just my personal opinions.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[yume]

I'm absolutely against raising the age limit.

First because of biology. Not everyone is built the same. There are skaters who grow faster than others and are more shapped than other skaters of their age or even older. If we compare Daria Panenkova, Anastasiia Gubanova at 15yo with Trusova, Shcherbakova, Kostornaia at the same age, it looks like the two first are at least 2 years older than the other three. When i watched JGPs this season, i had an hard time believing that some skaters were the same age than Petrosian (14yo) who is very small.
Then i don't see why everyone should get the same treatment. Some skaters don't have that "unfair physical advantage" over 17yo skaters since they are as curved, if not more.

And about stamina capacity, i don't see much difference between 15yo and 17/18yo. 17/18yo is still fairly young.

2nd, because i think it won't resolve anything about the technical side. When they fixed an age limit, did it stop coaches to teach 3-3s from 11yo? Now skaters are learning quads from 10yo. If we add 2 more years to age limit, does it mean that they will start to learn at 12yo? I don't see much difference anyway, they are still young bones.

3rd, because among reasons that people who want the age limit to be raised give, there is the "i'm tired to see children with women. Skating at senior level should be for skaters who looks like women". It's incredibly unfair. Not because of the supposed body-shame, i don't see body shame, there are skaters who really look like children younger than 15yo. But because this is a sport and aesthetics should be really secondary. If an athlete worked hard to get a certain level, he should be allowed to show what he/she learnt, no matter if she doesn't have boobs or he have too much baby cheeks. No one choose their body type or their growing speed. Tursynbaeva, Uno and Samsonov didn't choose to look 5 years younger when they were 15yo. If skaters have the same skills than seniors, they should be allowed to compete, no matter what they look like.

And finally, those older skaters were 15yo once and were free to get the same results. If they didn't, it isn't the fault of the current 15yo skaters. Tuktamysheva was allowed to compete (and win medals) at grand prix series at 14yo. I don't think she would have took it well if ISU had suddenly told her "you're too young and have an unfair advantage over older skaters, you can't compete.".

So, it should be 15yo. And not by the 1st july. If you are 15yo during a competition you should enter if you can, no matter when you turned 15yo.

If it's raised, i hope at least that all skaters who already debuted on junior level will be exempted.

 

[Raskolnikov]

Why stop at 17 though? Surely puberty lasts different for each girl. Maybe we should move it even further to 21
What if some girl dodges the puberty monster and steals the precious gold! Better be safe than sorry!

 

[Balloon]

I would agree, keep them in junior a few years, still gaining experience and less pressure through the growing years. Better chance for the sport to have longevity skaters.

 

[Amei]

Every time I post this I get attacked but this is ridiculous. I'm watching Cup of Russia and these two 15yos are doing triple axels and quads with arms over their heads. Here's my problem. What happens is these girls come to the surface, with their tricks and snatch world and Olympic medals from ladies that have devoted years to the sport. Then they hit a growth spurt and retire OR can't do the tricks anymore and fall down the leaderboards. Skaters like Elizabeth Tuktamushava, Wakabi Haguchi, Bradie Tennell and Karen Chen have worked hard and if these 15yos come in snatch the medals and bounce, where's the fairness in that? How are they senior when they're bodies aren't fully developed? I didn't like it when Tara Lipinski won in 1998 and bounced to be honest. Insert hateful comment below.

• Well some of these ladies are retiring because they've won most of the titles that there is to win or they have been surpassed technically in their country where they know its unlikely to get to the big-time competitions again to get titles - its got to be difficult to have gone to Worlds/Olympics and then be faced with the possibility of at best a couple seasons on the GP and Challenger circuit until they are at best relegated to only challenger and domestic competitions - given their age (and I would even include Tuktamushava, Wakabi, Bradie, Karen) I can't fault someone deciding to walkaway from grueling training schedules and focus on other priorities.
• Regarding Tuktamushava, Wakabi, Bradie, Karen --- yes they have been in the sport for years (as-has the 15-16 years old you want to be age-ineligible for international competition) but none of them have pushed the sport forward and they literally waited until they were getting beaten by the 15 year olds before working on increasing their technical content.
  • Tuktamushava: she has world medals, the reason she hasn't been to the Olympics is because of her own performance, she did not do well the last 2 Olympic seasons either on the GP circuit or at Nationals. Funny once Kostornaia/Shcherbakova/Trusova got onto the senior circuit she upgraded to doing 3 triple axels in her competition programs. Why wasn't she doing that before?
  • Shcherbakova and Trusova were doing quads for several years before they turned senior - yet there was not a lot of rumblings from seniors that they were working on quads or triple axels themselves, or even just back-loading their more difficult jumps to gain extra points - junior skaters have been the ones pushing the sport technically - the sport governing body is unlikely to want to see the juniors being much more technically advanced than the senior medalists for Worlds/Olympics - which is what would be the case if Shcherbakova/Trusova/Valieva were forced to be junior skaters this year (depending on when you would have the cut-off birthdate)
• the 'loss of tricks' is a losing argument, both Trusova and Shcherbakova ARE 17 and both still have their difficult elements, both of whom will be closer to 18 than 17 if they make the team for Beijing

I think the 'raise the age limit' argument can really be boiled down for a lot of fans to: my favorite skater is 18-25 and being beaten by a 15-17 year old that's technically more skilled than my favorite skater, this problem should be solved by removing the 15-17 year old from being her competition

 

[ladyjane]

I don't know if the minimum age for seniors should be 17 exactly, but I do think that the discipline of senior women should cover women, not girls. Not because only pre puberty girls can do difficult jumps (which isn't exactly true) and they lose them after puberty (which isn't exactly true either), but I like to watch sports with adults. Young adults, of course, but not girls and boys. I'll go and watch juniors for that.

I also like to follow senior athletes through the years - longevity is an issue with me. But I'm not sure whether raising the minimum age will do much on that score. But if raising the age level will make womens's skating interesting to watch again (and to me, it's rather boring now) because there are women participating, not young girls, I'm all for it. For the record: it's not about 'my favourite skater' at all.

 

[YuBluByMe]

Raising the age limit will accomplish nothing other than devaluing senior competition when junior skaters - forced to skate too long in a division they do not belong in - completely eclipse the seniors. More juniors on the season’s best list than seniors is not a good look. If the age is raised, then the junior system will have to be completely overhauled and exceptions need to be made for exceptional skaters. I’m passionate on this point and I would say more but Amei is already taking care of things.

Additionally, I would like to see the maximum age for juniors lowered to 17 for single skaters.

 

[lariko]

Every time I post this I get attacked but this is ridiculous. I'm watching Cup of Russia and these two 15yos are doing triple axels and quads with arms over their heads. Here's my problem. What happens is these girls come to the surface, with their tricks and snatch world and Olympic medals from ladies that have devoted years to the sport. Then they hit a growth spurt and retire OR can't do the tricks anymore and fall down the leaderboards. Skaters like Elizabeth Tuktamushava, Wakabi Haguchi, Bradie Tennell and Karen Chen have worked hard and if these 15yos come in snatch the medals and bounce, where's the fairness in that? How are they senior when they're bodies aren't fully developed? I didn't like it when Tara Lipinski won in 1998 and bounced to be honest. Insert hateful comment below.

Trusova and Scherbakova are 17, they also have tricks.

 

[lariko]

Additionally, I would like to see the maximum age for juniors lowered to 17 for single skaters.

That might push men too early into seniors from juniors, and most of them do not have successful transition as is. Because of growth pattern, injuries of that time period and changing technique, some of them might even miss junior GP altogether. Plus, it messes with the rest of the life events, because people usually stay in grade school till closer to 18. I just don’t see what pushing people out of juniors earlier will accomplish.

 

[moonvine]

I'm absolutely against raising the age limit.

First because of biology. Not everyone is built the same. There are skaters who grow faster than others and are more shapped than other skaters of their age or even older. If we compare Daria Panenkova, Anastasiia Gubanova at 15yo with Trusova, Shcherbakova, Kostornaia at the same age, it looks like the two first are at least 2 years older than the other three. When i watched JGPs this season, i had an hard time believing that some skaters were the same age than Petrosian (14yo) who is very small.
Then i don't see why everyone should get the same treatment. Some skaters don't have that "unfair physical advantage" over 17yo skaters since they are as curved, if not more.

And about stamina capacity, i don't see much difference between 15yo and 17/18yo. 17/18yo is still fairly young.

2nd, because i think it won't resolve anything about the technical side. When they fixed an age limit, did it stop coaches to teach 3-3s from 11yo? Now skaters are learning quads from 10yo. If we add 2 more years to age limit, does it mean that they will start to learn at 12yo? I don't see much difference anyway, they are still young bones.

3rd, because among reasons that people who want the age limit to be raised give, there is the "i'm tired to see children with women. Skating at senior level should be for skaters who looks like women". It's incredibly unfair. Not because of the supposed body-shame, i don't see body shame, there are skaters who really look like children younger than 15yo. But because this is a sport and aesthetics should be really secondary. If an athlete worked hard to get a certain level, he should be allowed to show what he/she learnt, no matter if she doesn't have boobs or he have too much baby cheeks. No one choose their body type or their growing speed. Tursynbaeva, Uno and Samsonov didn't choose to look 5 years younger when they were 15yo. If skaters have the same skills than seniors, they should be allowed to compete, no matter what they look like.

And finally, those older skaters were 15yo once and were free to get the same results. If they didn't, it isn't the fault of the current 15yo skaters. Tuktamysheva was allowed to compete (and win medals) at grand prix series at 14yo. I don't think she would have took it well if ISU had suddenly told her "you're too young and have an unfair advantage over older skaters, you can't compete.".

So, it should be 15yo. And not by the 1st july. If you are 15yo during a competition you should enter if you can, no matter when you turned 15yo.

If it's raised, i hope at least that all skaters who already debuted on junior level will be exempted.

I think my comment has been misinterpreted. I did not mean anything negative or positive about any body type.

When I say “skaters that skate like women” I mean things like skating skills, musical interpretation, etc. Some commentator used to call it “the in betweens.” The stuff that is beautiful to me. Not just jumping.

It’s like when Alysa won her first National Championship and Mirai said it was good she could do a triple axel, but that she skated like a Junior. It’s figure skating. Not skate jumping.

But nothing to do with the shape/size of any skater. I don’t do that.

 

[McBibus]

The problem is not the age: is the scoring system.

Let's break up last Kamila's FS
84,17 jumps
14,53 spins
9,94 step/choreo
76,17 PCS

PCS are high but they usually (not today) have the tendency to be very close between the girls on the podium.
Today Kami ha 6 PCS points more than Liza, but we usually look at a margin of 3 point.
Judges can't or won't discriminate too much, and PCS are misteriously attache to TES/BV.
Both Bell and Hendricks got less PCS then Maya at Rostelecom.
If we exclude Kami, PCS from 2nd to 4th are grouped in a 1,40 point difference.

So, in the end,
Jumps weight 75+% of total TES
Rest of elements weight so little that even if you're scored 20% better you can make a 5 point difference
PCS weight for a lot but difference is minimal (5 pt or less) with skater that are competing for the same position.

revolutions in the air (with some quality) make the difference.
If they allow quads in the SP too it would be even worst: You can just count the landed quads and avoid rectruiting a squad of judges/tech panel.

My ideal distrubution (related to a potential best skater) would be
50% jumps
30% Spins
20% step/choreo
PCS perfect 10 almost equal to total best TES (work on multiplyer), but the problem with PCS would be to actually start to judging it, maybe with a different panel. I always wonder how a judge can see transitions when he's busy with bullets and GOE for a total of 12 elements in 4 minutes (one every 20 seconds)

note: I like the SP as it is now because it has different rules and let us see skater fighting with quality on elements that are common between world top level. Trixel is good for two reason: 1) spice it a bit 2) being the only ultra C element in the SP it forces skaters to work on it if they want to excel both in SP and in FS (where quads are dominant)

 

[karne]

To address the title of the thread:

Come up with a proposal that is more than just "waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah the Russian girls keep winning!" and I might consider supporting it.

Produce a proposal with legitimate reasons for adjusting the age limit and you'll get better responses. Wanting to raise it just because the Russian girls keep winning just makes you look like a sore loser.

 

[lappo]

I think my comment has been misinterpreted. I did not mean anything negative or positive about any body type.

When I say “skaters that skate like women” I mean things like skating skills, musical interpretation, etc. Some commentator used to call it “the in betweens.” The stuff that is beautiful to me. Not just jumping.

It’s like when Alysa won her first National Championship and Mirai said it was good she could do a triple axel, but that she skated like a Junior. It’s figure skating. Not skate jumping.

But nothing to do with the shape/size of any skater. I don’t do that.

I think there have been in recent years several women under 17 who skated very memorable programs, apart from the jumps; among those who come to mind are all of Marin Honda junior programs, Rika's Beautiful Storm, Gubanova's Romeo and Juliet, Sinitsina's programs last years, Aliona's Departure, Kamila's Storm and I could go on...several of these skaters have really good skating skills and their interpretation of said programs was very memorable to me (in some cases more memorable than many of those from their older competitors).
Also, if you limit the age, you will probably have a super junior league that outshines the senior one, which would not be cool for the sport.

 

[Mathman]

I think that the proponents of more restrictive age rules have a hard sell. The whole idea of sports is that the athlete who performs the best deserves to win. The argument that an older skater who doggedly progresses year after year ought automatically to trump a brilliant flash in the pan -- we can save that for lifetime achievement awards, not Olympic medals.

For people who think that figure skating is not as enjoyable as a spectator sport these days, I think that McBibus (post #13 above) is on the right track. Perhaps the sport would be improved if there were less emphasis on multi-rorational jumps. OK, if that's "what's wrong with skating,"then the problem can be addressed directly, without making it about age.

 

[el henry]

Other sports, which are just as sporty as our sporting sport of figure skating (and yes, I'm making a point, or at least I hope I am with ridiculous phraseology)
have age restrictions, where the "best" can't compete until a certain age. And yes, I'm looking at you, NFL and NBA.

Now, I think that revolutions in the air are overvalued and I have no problem with reducing their influence. But no sport is a utopian meritocracy where only the sportiest sportsters win, least of all judged sports. I would rather err on the side of health to raise the age.

(Incoming, or at least it has in the past, How do you know it's healthier? Where are the studies? Isn't it just as unhealthy to skate past age 17? Etc. I've answered all those in the past, and I'm not sure I have the strength to do so again. Sorry. )

 

[Amei]

Every time I post this I get attacked but this is ridiculous. I'm watching Cup of Russia and these two 15yos are doing triple axels and quads with arms over their heads. Here's my problem. What happens is these girls come to the surface, with their tricks and snatch world and Olympic medals from ladies that have devoted years to the sport. Then they hit a growth spurt and retire OR can't do the tricks anymore and fall down the leaderboards. Skaters like Elizabeth Tuktamushava, Wakabi Haguchi, Bradie Tennell and Karen Chen have worked hard and if these 15yos come in snatch the medals and bounce, where's the fairness in that? How are they senior when they're bodies aren't fully developed? I didn't like it when Tara Lipinski won in 1998 and bounced to be honest. Insert hateful comment below.

Question for you: your post indicates that your problem is that first year seniors come in win and bounce:
- would that not be a problem for you if a 17 year old first year senior came in and won all or most of the available titles for that season and bounced?

And if its not - why? And if it is a problem - then it sounds like you are a proponent of some type of odd sport that should be removed from the Olympics where a skater is only capable of winning a 'big title' after they have spent a certain number of years competing as a senior internationally.

You talk about Tuktamushava, Wakabi Haguchi, Bradie Tennell and Karen Chen being in the sport for years ---with the exception of Tuktamysheva none of the others have won a world title, GPF title (or even a medal) and including Tuktamysheva none of them have won an individual olympic medal. What indication is there that they would have continued had they achieved some or all of those medals/titles by now?

 

[moonvine]

I think there have been in recent years several women under 17 who skated very memorable programs, apart from the jumps; among those who come to mind are all of Marin Honda junior programs, Rika's Beautiful Storm, Gubanova's Romeo and Juliet, Sinitsina's programs last years, Aliona's Departure, Kamila's Storm and I could go on...several of these skaters have really good skating skills and their interpretation of said programs was very memorable to me (in some cases more memorable than many of those from their older competitors).
Also, if you limit the age, you will probably have a super junior league that outshines the senior one, which would not be cool for the sport.

It would if one believes that only jumping is important, and that skates with the fanciest tricks are the best skaters.

The last World Championships were a mess, with wobbly spins and falls winning over clean skaters because of jump difficulty. It was even suggested that “minor” elements like spins be left out. And certainly don’t bother working on step sequences, they are worth pretty close to nothing. Honestly I’ve just about lost interest in women’s skating completely.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

The last World Championships were a mess, with wobbly spins and falls winning over clean skaters because of jump difficulty.

this can only be said about Trusova.