2021-22 Russian Women's Figure Skating | Page 276 | Golden Skate

2021-22 Russian Women's Figure Skating

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+5 GOE for spins that travel. But when Anna was given a good score for a traveling spin at nationals against Kamila now then it is outrageous.
FYI, many were very pissed Anna got any goe for her spins that time. The thing is, centered spin is not even one of the first 3 bullets in the GOE. So as illogical as it seems, it’s not mandatory to have a centered spin to get high GOE.
 
The same could be said of any of the 3A who were winning by massive double digit margins in the Grand Prix stages, but who couldn’t get that margin against one another.

Sasha is clean without pressure and then falters under it. We haven’t seen Kamila under pressure, so who knows if she’s the same.

I think predicting her success as “making meat” out of her competitors, and saying she’s going to thrash two skaters who are very close to her in both BV and talent when she hasn’t faced them at all this season, nor has she been judged by a panel who hasn’t given out candy just because they know there’s a base value difference between her and her competitors is just silly.

Everyone is still ignoring that she was literally given positive GOE by some judges for FALLS and +5 GOE for spins that travel. But when Anna was given a good score for a traveling spin at nationals against Kamila now then it is outrageous.

I have nothing else to say. It’s nonsense scoring and I don’t think anyone can be predicting GOAT status and undefeated seasons based on two grand prix stages against her weakest competition.
You still haven't said what you would have scored KV at the Russian GP and the Canadian GP. I am assuming you would take 5 to 10 points off her total scores which means she would have won by like 30 points instead of 40 points.

The challenges for sasha and Anna to get close enough to this girl in total scores where a few KV mistakes could cost her a gold medal is possible. But these girls to be honest are gonna have to get in the 250 point range to challenge her and then KV is going to have to make 2 or 3 mistakes in the free.

That said I do not expect Kamila to win rusnats by 30 or 40 points. That will be a pressurized event. So a 20 point win is more likely for Valieva. Like 265 to 245.
 
First of all, it was not a fall, it was a step out.

(See below for protocols)
You still haven't said what you would have scored KV at the Russian GP and the Canadian GP. I am assuming you would take 5 to 10 points off her total scores which means she would have won by like 30 points instead of 40 points.

The challenges for sasha and Anna to get close enough to this girl in total scores where a few KV mistakes could cost her a gold medal is possible. But these girls to be honest are gonna have to get in the 250 point range to challenge her and then KV is going to have to make 2 or 3 mistakes in the free.

That said I do not expect Kamila to win rusnats by 30 or 40 points. That will be a pressurized event. So a 20 point win is more likely for Valieva. Like 265 to 245.
I did mention them— I said 82 for short, and 155 for FS. I think her performance, composition, and interpretation marks are much too high, and her jump combos are almost always overscored.

I think Anna’s SP is worth maybe 83 and was underscored, and Sasha’s is worth about what she received at Skate America (77 I think?) assuming she repeats the performance aspect. Aliona with a 3A I’d put at roughly an 80 based on what we’ve seen now because she just doesn’t quite have the polished elements or skating skills we’ve seen in the past but the 3A gives her the tech boost. I think Liza was overscored in the short as well— I’d put her roughly with Sasha.

The FS is dependent on a lot of factors, but when Kamila gets off beat, and falls its like the Game of Thrones program for me. I would give it much lower PCS in performance and interpretation, as before. I don’t know how someone can be getting 9.5-10 for those marks when every program is completely different. If Sasha repeats her five quads she SHOULD win. The program she presented at test skates for me is the best of any this season. 175 roughly would be appropriate given its base value. If I were her I’d pull the 3A out of the short and focus on the quads and performance. Anna with 2 quads and Valieva would be perhaps be the hardest to judge because I think Anna’s PCS should be so much higher than anyone else’s but her base value is lower. Liza I get is good but with the 3A I don’t think she should be in the convo. Though I think she definitely deserves higher marks than Kamila for performance/interpretation/compositioneven if that program isn’t my cup of tea. As for Aliona well, she is my favorite and she can compete in the short but without quads and not having shown us a really complete FS even without a 3A, I don’t see how she can match their scores at all.
 
You still haven't said what you would have scored KV at the Russian GP and the Canadian GP. I am assuming you would take 5 to 10 points off her total scores which means she would have won by like 30 points instead of 40 points.

The challenges for sasha and Anna to get close enough to this girl in total scores where a few KV mistakes could cost her a gold medal is possible. But these girls to be honest are gonna have to get in the 250 point range to challenge her and then KV is going to have to make 2 or 3 mistakes in the free.

That said I do not expect Kamila to win rusnats by 30 or 40 points. That will be a pressurized event. So a 20 point win is more likely for Valieva. Like 265 to 245.
265 to 245 is actually within Anna, Sasha and peak Aliona's scoring ranges. A 20 point win means 2nd place would be earning 245 to 225, which I don't think will be the case. Liza is also regularly reaching 230+.

I think Kamila will score 275 even with mistakes at nationals so that will give her 10 to 30 points lead depending on how the others do.
 
I think Anna’s SP is worth maybe 83.
Ideal Anna or Anna as she skated in Grenoble?
No way that skate could be over 80 imho.
But at GPF she will have 3 more weeks of traning and she's improving.
The season is very long and her curriculum means she did not needed to impress right from the start
That was essential for Kamila on the other end since she never was judged by a senior international panel before
 
I did mention them— I said 82 for short, and 155 for FS. I think her performance, composition, and interpretation marks are much too high, and her jump combos are almost always overscored.

I think Anna’s SP is worth maybe 83 and was underscored, and Sasha’s is worth about what she received at Skate America (77 I think?) assuming she repeats the performance aspect. Aliona with a 3A I’d put at roughly an 80 based on what we’ve seen now because she just doesn’t quite have the polished elements or skating skills we’ve seen in the past but the 3A gives her the tech boost. I think Liza was overscored in the short as well— I’d put her roughly with Sasha.

The FS is dependent on a lot of factors, but when Kamila gets off beat, and falls its like the Game of Thrones program for me. I would give it much lower PCS in performance and interpretation, as before. I don’t know how someone can be getting 9.5-10 for those marks when every program is completely different. If Sasha repeats her five quads she SHOULD win. The program she presented at test skates for me is the best of any this season. 175 roughly would be appropriate given its base value. If I were her I’d pull the 3A out of the short and focus on the quads and performance. Anna with 2 quads and Valieva would be perhaps be the hardest to judge because I think Anna’s PCS should be so much higher than anyone else’s but her base value is lower. Liza I get is good but with the 3A I don’t think she should be in the convo. Though I think she definitely deserves higher marks than Kamila for performance/interpretation/compositioneven if that program isn’t my cup of tea. As for Aliona well, she is my favorite and she can compete in the short but without quads and not having shown us a really complete FS even without a 3A, I don’t see how she can match their scores at all.
You have KV below 240 points? Dang. You are the only one. Hopefully you're deflating other top ladies scores as well and not just hers because many have had scores puffed-up this season.

You think Liza should have higher pcs than Kamila? If so you are the only one.

Thank you for your explanations. I do hope the judging becomes consistent week-to-week but I guess that's asking too much.

We will have to wait and see how healthy Sasha is and if she can do a three quad performance at Nationals and Anna is always in the mix but she needs to do more than one quad in the free to beat KV or even come within 20 points of Kamila.

The season is just getting going we have to say who stays healthy and if KV has peaked too soon or not or if she's just getting better because she's certainly a lot better than she was at test skates. Correct?
 
265 to 245 is actually within Anna, Sasha and peak Aliona's scoring ranges. A 20 point win means 2nd place would be earning 245 to 225, which I don't think will be the case. Liza is also regularly reaching 230+.

I think Kamila will score 275 even with mistakes at nationals so that will give her 10 to 30 points lead depending on how the others do.
It would be staggering and amazing to see the top four ladies at Russian Nationals scoring between 240 and 280 points
 
You have KV below 240 points? Dang. You are the only one. Hopefully you're deflating other top ladies scores as well and not just hers because many have had scores puffed-up this season.

You think Liza should have higher pcs than Kamila? If so you are the only one.

Thank you for your explanations. I do hope the judging becomes consistent week-to-week but I guess that's asking too much.

We will have to wait and see how healthy Sasha is and if she can do a three quad performance at Nationals and Anna is always in the mix but she needs to do more than one quad in the free to beat KV or even come within 20 points of Kamila.

The season is just getting going we have to say who stays healthy and if KV has peaked too soon or not or if she's just getting better because she's certainly a lot better than she was at test skates. Correct?
Well I would have Liza better than Kamila in those three categories for these programs. If it was girl on ball or exogenesis I would only have Liza better than Kamila for performance. I think Kamila has better skating skills and transitions. It’s just for me I don’t know how someone can consistently change the performance intent and interpretation and therefore have no clear compositional/choreographical intent and somehow still be getting high marks than a program competed continuously with intentionality. This is of course the reason why PCS rises in a season USUALLY. Because the image is refined so the true piece comes out more and more as it is competed more and more. For me Kamila changing the intent every time she competes destroys this progression.

I would also deflate the rest of the scores accordingly, yes. I don’t think anyone is better than the 2019 season except Sasha but she had pretty low scores in 2019 as well. Aliona has outscored her this season, I believe. 218 at euros vs 218 in France? I don’t remember the exact values. But I don’t think anyone would argue that Aliona this season should be on par with Sasha in 2019. Aliona in Canada should’ve gotten maybe 205 in a proper scoring system, but up against the over inflation for the competition should’ve scored much higher than she ended up scoring. There’s very little attention on the part of the judges themselves given to relativity of scoring between competitions and even more so between seasons.

Kamila I don’t think is any better or worse than test skates. She is just not on the same ice as Anna and Sasha which I think is why she is skating more clean. Test skates aren’t a competition but it was her first senior skate, and she did have something to prove to the fed. Last season she skated mostly clean iirc until she had to compete against Sasha and lost. I don’t know if she’ll do the same this season, but imo the scores are just better because she makes fewer mistakes, not really because the rest of the program has improved. Nationals last year was just surprising all around because no one made mistakes— very very rare. As for actual programs and not just pressure/expectations I think I would prefer the butterfly image in the short because changing it to be about grief and mourning and her grandmother mid season without any real expressive changes just seems insincere. In this way for me the SP has regressed even if she is mostly landing the 3A.
 
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I wonder if the people who wanna put Liza ahead of Kamila in PCS, or even only performance, have ever considered that when you have close to 0 transitions or footwork in your programs, inferior tech and spins and all you have to do choreography wise is make the same Bollywood gestures with your arms over and over again while standing still - it is much easier to "perform". Aka raise your arms and smile to animate the crowd when your music cut literally says "are you readyyy? LET'S GO!"...*insert bass pumping music*...🤦‍♀️
There is nobody screaming "LET'S GO!" in Bolero and much less in a lyrical program like Kamila's SP. A good performance looks very different in those kind of programs.

I applaud Liza's team for this packaging cause it's really the best they could have done for her and the crowd will fall for it/get behind it every time. I also applaud Liza for delivering it to the best of her abilities - but using that as an argument to score her higher than Kamila... well, to each their own and thank god the mayority of judges don't agree.
 
You have KV below 240 points? Dang. You are the only one. Hopefully you're deflating other top ladies scores as well and not just hers because many have had scores puffed-up this season.

You think Liza should have higher pcs than Kamila? If so you are the only one.

Thank you for your explanations. I do hope the judging becomes consistent week-to-week but I guess that's asking too
So it was not literally a FALL?
Well, no deduction, but very bad step out— not a landed element. Landed URs received negative GOE whereas she received positive GOE. Aliona’s step out in the SP is somewhat comparable but she was not given anywhere near a +1 from any judge. Point is, Kamila was egregiously overscored so much so that her failed elements were scoring the same GOE as completed elements. Do you think a fully rotated element that is landed deserves the same GOE as a non-landed element? If so, why?
 
Well I would have Liza better than Kamila in those three categories for these programs. If it was girl on ball or exogenesis I would only have Liza better than Kamila for performance. I think Kamila has better skating skills and transitions. It’s just for me I don’t know how someone can consistently change the performance intent and interpretation and therefore have no clear compositional/choreographical intent and somehow still be getting high marks than a program competed continuously with intentionality. This is of course the reason why PCS rises in a season USUALLY. Because the image is refined so the true piece comes out more and more as it is competed more and more. For me Kamila changing the intent every time she competes destroys this progression.

I would also deflate the rest of the scores accordingly, yes. I don’t think anyone is better than the 2019 season except Sasha but she had pretty low scores in 2019 as well. Aliona has outscored her this season, I believe. 218 at euros vs 218 in France? I don’t remember the exact values. But I don’t think anyone would argue that Aliona this season should be on par with Sasha in 2019. Aliona in Canada should’ve gotten maybe 205 in a proper scoring system, but up against the over inflation for the competition should’ve scored much higher than she ended up scoring. There’s very little attention on the part of the judges themselves given to relativity of scoring between competitions and even more so between seasons.

Kamila I don’t think is any better or worse than test skates. She is just not on the same ice as Anna and Sasha which I think is why she is skating more clean. Test skates aren’t a competition but it was her first senior skate, and she did have something to prove to the fed. Last season she skated mostly clean iirc until she had to compete against Sasha and lost. I don’t know if she’ll do the same this season, but imo the scores are just better because she makes fewer mistakes, not really because the rest of the program has improved. Nationals last year was just surprising all around because no one made mistakes— very very rare. As for actual programs and not just pressure/expectations I think I would prefer the butterfly image in the short because changing it to be about grief and mourning and her grandmother mid season without any real expressive changes just seems insincere. In this way for me the SP has regressed even if she is mostly landing the 3A.
But this theory that Kamila cannot do well when Anna and Sasha are present isn't solid. She delivered during RusNats and came 2nd. Last season Kamila started out losing against Sasha in her first comp. and kept improving.

On the step-out it was one judge in one competition and it wasn't even counted anyways. I also think it's worth you admitting that it wasn't a fall because that is what you said.
 
I wonder if the people who wanna put Liza ahead of Kamila in PCS, or even only performance, have ever considered that when you have close to 0 transitions or footwork in your programs, inferior tech and spins and all you have to do choreography wise is make the same Bollywood gestures with your arms over and over again while standing still - it is much easier to "perform". Aka raise your arms and smile to animate the crowd when your music cut literally says "are you readyyy? LET'S GO!"...*insert bass pumping music*...🤦‍♀️
There is nobody screaming "LET'S GO!" in Bolero and much less in a lyrical program like Kamila's SP. A good performance looks very different in those kind of programs.

I applaud Liza's team for this packaging cause it's really the best they could have done for her and the crowd will fall for it/get behind it every time. I also applaud Liza for delivering it to the best of her abilities - but using that as an argument to score her higher than Kamila... well, to each their own and thank god the mayority of judges don't agree.
If she is using her performance abilities to her advantage then of course she should get points for them. I hate it, I think it’s bad. Its not something I would watch again after the fact. But no one else but Liza could pull it off, she commits to it, and there is a very clear image she is trying to portray. In this way she absolutely does beat programs in interpretation/performance/compositioneven if there is a reduced technical content.

And I’m sorry, but twenty crossovers with arms going from second to fourth position in Bolero is not exactly “choreography” either. Liza and Kamila even have essentially the same 3A exit she just doesn’t get as much distance. So it’s not like Liza is just being lazy the way she was two seasons ago.
 
Well, no deduction, but very bad step out— not a landed element. Landed URs received negative GOE whereas she received positive GOE. Aliona’s step out in the SP is somewhat comparable but she was not given anywhere near a +1 from any judge. Point is, Kamila was egregiously overscored so much so that her failed elements were scoring the same GOE as completed elements. Do you think a fully rotated element that is landed deserves the same GOE as a non-landed element? If so, why?
Nyet! But you need to take dress up with the ISU and the judges. And they should have to explain themselves and why they judge something a certain way. Unfortunately that will never happen.

By the way all the top girls have been somewhat overscored and this goes back years and years.
 
Well I would have Liza better than Kamila in those three categories for these programs. If it was girl on ball or exogenesis I would only have Liza better than Kamila for performance. I think Kamila has better skating skills and transitions. It’s just for me I don’t know how someone can consistently change the performance intent and interpretation and therefore have no clear compositional/choreographical intent and somehow still be getting high marks than a program competed continuously with intentionality. This is of course the reason why PCS rises in a season USUALLY. Because the image is refined so the true piece comes out more and more as it is competed more and more. For me Kamila changing the intent every time she competes destroys this progression.

I would also deflate the rest of the scores accordingly, yes. I don’t think anyone is better than the 2019 season except Sasha but she had pretty low scores in 2019 as well. Aliona has outscored her this season, I believe. 218 at euros vs 218 in France? I don’t remember the exact values. But I don’t think anyone would argue that Aliona this season should be on par with Sasha in 2019. Aliona in Canada should’ve gotten maybe 205 in a proper scoring system, but up against the over inflation for the competition should’ve scored much higher than she ended up scoring. There’s very little attention on the part of the judges themselves given to relativity of scoring between competitions and even more so between seasons.

Kamila I don’t think is any better or worse than test skates. She is just not on the same ice as Anna and Sasha which I think is why she is skating more clean. Test skates aren’t a competition but it was her first senior skate, and she did have something to prove to the fed. Last season she skated mostly clean iirc until she had to compete against Sasha and lost. I don’t know if she’ll do the same this season, but imo the scores are just better because she makes fewer mistakes, not really because the rest of the program has improved. Nationals last year was just surprising all around because no one made mistakes— very very rare. As for actual programs and not just pressure/expectations I think I would prefer the butterfly image in the short because changing it to be about grief and mourning and her grandmother mid season without any real expressive changes just seems insincere. In this way for me the SP has regressed even if she is mostly landing the 3A.
There's a lot going on with scoring but the main thing is you admit that all of them have been overstored and I think everyone here will agree to a certain point that that is true.

If someone says the top girls have been slightly overscored this year I don't wanthis year agree with that. If I just want consistency whether it's tough scoring or puff down is puffed up scoring. Unfortunately we don't get consistency with the judges and that creates a lot of turmoil.
 
Yes probably easier, that's why she is losing points on spins
She’s not though, although she definitely should.
Just look at her Ch Combo spin from Rostelecom FS and explain if you can, why did the first camel position count as 2 rotations? She barely did 1, yet she got level 4 and generous GOE.
 
I‘m personally astounded that Liza‘s sudden meteoric rise in PCS isn't met with the incredulity it, imo, deserves. For me she is and always has been the antithesis of a "PCS skater". I think I‘ve made it clear that I‘m not a fan of Kamila‘s at all and I couldn‘t care less about her programs - but she‘s objectively a much better skater than Liza. Let‘s look at each PCS factor individually alright?

Skating skills: Kamila has much better speed, ice coverage and depth of edges. Like, it‘s not even a competition between them at this point. If I had to give a concrete number, I‘d rate Kamila‘s somewhere around 8.50 - 8.75, while Liza‘s are at least a full point below hers. Liza has laboured crossovers which makes her rather slow. She also doesn‘t have good ice coverage, not a lot of one foot or multidirectional skating and the edges during her step sequence are shallow without a lot of flow. Kamila‘s crossovers aren‘t the best either (which is why I wouldn‘t rate her SS at a 9 personally) but she‘s still miles better at gaining, maintaining and utilizing speed than Liza and has better movement quality and edge control.

Transitions: I mean… do we really have to write a whole essay about this one? The entry into Liza‘s 3A should be enough of a proof - it‘s stalled and cautious and slow and her programs have been historically empty in terms of transitions (a common feature for many Mishin skaters, I must say). She’s improved a bit over the last few years but she’s nowhere even close to most top skaters, let alone those from Eteri’s camp. Kamila, meanwhile, is a traditional Sambo70 skater, with all that entails, including tons of transitions. Now, personally, I do not believe quantity equals quality — Kamila‘s transitions could and should be held longer and accentuated better for maximum effect — but, well, quantity is still better than nothing.

Now, performance, composition and interpretation are all less "technical" and thus much more open to interpretation, so I‘ll lump them together here. I think it‘s fair to say that Liza is a effective performer with a strategically well chosen FS - she gets the crowd to rally behind her. Whether or not that style might appeal to everyone is a personal choice. But she‘s certainly doing well with it. Interpretation, however, is a rather different matter and frankly, I think neither Kamila nor Liza are the cream of the crop there, especially not in the FS. Kamila‘s executing the choreo she‘s been given but I don‘t feel like she fully commands Bolero yet (granted, it‘s a very difficult piece and the choreo doesn‘t help). She certainly commands the technical elements but beyond that… not so much. As for Liza… I personally don‘t see her interpreting the music with her body in any way, beyond a dozen vague hand gestures/movements. But that‘s surface level, "performance" if you will, not interpretation. And while Bolero certainly isn‘t a choreographic masterpiece, I don‘t think anyone can tell me with a straight face that Liza‘s FS of all programs, is.

So yeah. I think it’s ridiculous to claim that Liza is a better PCS skater than Kamila just because… why, exactly? She‘s older? She‘s objectively (and seriously) lagging on the more technical side of PCS and about even (if your’re generous) on the rest.

Frankly speaking, Liza‘s been just as overscored as the rest of them this season. I know she‘s been the underdog for years and the victim of unfair practices within RusFed but this doesn‘t neglect that her position has changed substantially this year. She‘s now a serious candidate for the Russian Olympic team and earning all the bonuses that come along with that.
 
I‘m personally astounded that Liza‘s sudden meteoric rise in PCS isn't met with the incredulity it, imo, deserves. For me she is and always has been the antithesis of a "PCS skater". I think I‘ve made it clear that I‘m not a fan of Kamila‘s at all and I couldn‘t care less about her programs - but she‘s objectively a much better skater than Liza. Let‘s look at each PCS factor individually alright?

Skating skills: Kamila has much better speed, ice coverage and depth of edges. Like, it‘s not even a competition between them at this point. If I had to give a concrete number, I‘d rate Kamila‘s somewhere around 8.50 - 8.75, while Liza‘s are at least a full point below hers. Liza has laboured crossovers which makes her rather slow. She also doesn‘t have good ice coverage, not a lot of one foot or multidirectional skating and the edges during her step sequence are shallow without a lot of flow. Kamila‘s crossovers aren‘t the best either (which is why I wouldn‘t rate her SS at a 9 personally) but she‘s still miles better at gaining, maintaining and utilizing speed than Liza and has better movement quality and edge control.

Transitions: I mean… do we really have to write a whole essay about this one? The entry into Liza‘s 3A should be enough of a proof - it‘s stalled and cautious and slow and her programs have been historically empty in terms of transitions (a common feature for many Mishin skaters, I must say). She’s improved a bit over the last few years but she’s nowhere even close to most top skaters, let alone those from Eteri’s camp. Kamila, meanwhile, is a traditional Sambo70 skater, with all that entails, including tons of transitions. Now, personally, I do not believe quantity equals quality — Kamila‘s transitions could and should be held longer and accentuated better for maximum effect — but, well, quantity is still better than nothing.

Now, performance, composition and interpretation are all less "technical" and thus much more open to interpretation, so I‘ll lump them together here. I think it‘s fair to say that Liza is a effective performer with a strategically well chosen FS - she gets the crowd to rally behind her. Whether or not that style might appeal to everyone is a personal choice. But she‘s certainly doing well with it. Interpretation, however, is a rather different matter and frankly, I think neither Kamila nor Liza are the cream of the crop there, especially not in the FS. Kamila‘s executing the choreo she‘s been given but I don‘t feel like she fully commands Bolero yet (granted, it‘s a very difficult piece and the choreo doesn‘t help). She certainly commands the technical elements but beyond that… not so much. As for Liza… I personally don‘t see her interpreting the music with her body in any way, beyond a dozen vague hand gestures/movements. But that‘s surface level, "performance" if you will, not interpretation. And while Bolero certainly isn‘t a choreographic masterpiece, I don‘t think anyone can tell me with a straight face that Liza‘s FS of all programs, is.

So yeah. I think it’s ridiculous to claim that Liza is a better PCS skater than Kamila just because… why, exactly? She‘s older? She‘s objectively (and seriously) lagging on the more technical side of PCS and about even (if your’re generous) on the rest.

Frankly speaking, Liza‘s been just as overscored as the rest of them this season. I know she‘s been the underdog for years and the victim of unfair practices within RusFed but this doesn‘t neglect that her position has changed substantially this year. She‘s now a serious candidate for the Russian Olympic team and earning all the bonuses that come along with that.
To be clear— I said almost exactly what you did.

That both are overscored, especially in PCS. I literally just said “LMAO” here when I saw the results for Skate Canada.

That Kamila has better SS and Transitions.

That if Kamila gets a 10 for performance Liza should absolutely because she is much better there than Kamila.

That Liza should get better scores than Kamila for Performance, interpretation, and composition.

And that neither are what I would consider “good” for those three component marks.

Compare even the Master of Margarita program at its worst to either Liza or Kamila’s programs, the crafting of it and Anna’s acting and engagement are far superior.
 
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