Raise The Senior Ladies Age To 17 Please!

[Zora]

The analogy with NBA and NFL rules is an interesting one. The original justification for eligibility rules in these sports were couched in terms of education.

I think that's also an interesting point. In Germany you have to physically attend school at least 10 years full time, there's no way around it. But usually it's 12 years. By that time the skaters are 18 or 19 years old. So not everyone has the possibility to peak at 15 years, which seems to be the perfect age now. Of course it's not the fault of other countries that we have rules like that.

 

[lariko]

I think the men have become incredibly thin lately, maybe that's just my impression, but I think many of them don't look naturally that thin and healthy anymore, sorry. There could be a BMI rule like in ski jumping, where eating disorders were/are very common. Since it's not possible to do something like adjust the ski length, they could reduce the points for jumps if the required BMI hasn't been reached. But I guess no one sees it as an issue.

Male skaters rarely talk about it, but some do speak out about eating disorders. It’s a troubling topic. But it is also troubling that everyone is okay with male skaters being on average shorter or thinner than average and if they are young, well, look, they are charmingly boyish and nobody ever requested them to have wider shoulders, divide them by height or or discuss how the podium is really boys, not senior men or how they are unnaturally flexible vs muscle bound, how their upper body is lacking in girth and biceps are not in evidence.

Fans exhibit sort of parental attitude toward senior men and sort of mate-searching toward senior women.

 

[lappo]

I’m a very casual skating fan… my interest comes and goes, but I wanted to chime in here. I’m all for the youth in the Olympics. If you can win at 15, why shouldn’t you? Why should you be forced to try to peak later if you’re athletically and mentally ready now.

Artistic gymnastics. A little background for those who may not know. The age limit was raised in ’97 to 16. At the same time compulsories were dropped… to the detriment of the sport according to many. Open-ended (no difficulty capping) didn’t come around until ‘06. In my opinion, the men’s side seem to have done better with not necessarily giving up so much in the quality department. Yes, we’re seeing athletes into their 20s now being more common especially when you start seeing depth dropping off in less powerful nationals. Oksana Chusovitina was able to make some decent money competing into her 40s. Timing is everything in sports as some were able to hold on (Ferrari, who was originally going as an individual) and some got healthy (Andrade) and others were broken (Morgan Hurd). Simone Biles, in my opinion, only really got hosed on her beam dismount for difficulty. The other skills were within reasonable range of expected difficulty given the natural progression of elements.

My point going back to figure skating is you’re in the midst of a revolution of the sport. Time will tell if the next generation, outside of Russia, will catch up technically. Raising the age won’t solve the problem IMO. I will be curious to see if the PCS scores are weighted differently going forward. It’s the best chance of leveling of the playing field, if enforced properly. I also think you have similar problem to gymnastics in ‘08 with the open-ended score because you’re not allowing quads in the short program. It’s an unfair advantage to those who can do a triple axle and not a quad. Trusova should be allowed to do quads in the short. I think she’d have an easier time with the triple axle then. I think she’d be more relaxed.

As a very causal fan, I have to ask, why is the age cut off in the middle of the year? That one never made sense to me.

It is a bit weird but it takes into account the fact that the season ends on June 30 and starts on July 1. It's the reason why Mao Asada (born in the second half of the year) was not able to go to the 2006 Olympics despite the protests and the petitions at the time even though she won the senior GPF that year, beating all the Olympic podium (at the time, people in junior could advance to GP series before 15 years).

 

[cem2]

To address the title of the thread:

Come up with a proposal that is more than just "waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah the Russian girls keep winning!" and I might consider supporting it.

Produce a proposal with legitimate reasons for adjusting the age limit and you'll get better responses. Wanting to raise it just because the Russian girls keep winning just makes you look like a sore loser.

You made the "POINT" in your statement......Russian GIRLS, not ladies figure skating as it should be....not girls or babies!!

 

[lariko]

You made the "POINT" in your statement......Russian GIRLS, not ladies figure skating as it should be....not girls or babies!!

Or boys! I need to look at a male skater and see a man in his prime, not a waif or a boy. Raise age limit to 21, pls.

 

[readernick]

I am concerned about all young figure skaters, male or female, ice dancer, pairs skater, and singles skater. I do think that having youths dominate a sport makes the athletes in that sport more susceptible to abuse. ( Not just the women, sexism is manifest in many ways including "caring"for weak women when young men are also frequently injured and abused ) It is easier for adult coaches/ parents/ athletic directors to control kids than adults. Someone brought up Artistic Gymnastics, and for many years it was believed that women gymnasts reached their peak in their teens. Recently, the average age of athletes has increased and so has the athletic difficulty that many gymnasts are performing. Now most people think gymnasts peak in their twenties. People noticed that many of the advocates for the necessity of youth for success in the sport, were often later exposed as being very abusive toward the athletes they coached.I don't care how an athlete looks. I don't care if that athlete is male or female. I do care about reducing injury and abuse. I think it is harder to abuse grown adults. So, for this reason, ideally, all athletes would be legal adults.

 

[lariko]

I am concerned about all young figure skaters, male or female, ice dancer, pairs skater, and singles skater. I do think that having youths dominate a sport makes the athletes in that sport more susceptible to abuse. ( Not just the women, sexism is manifest in many ways including "caring"for weak women when young men are also frequently injured and abused ) It is easier for adult coaches/ parents/ athletic directors to control kids than adults. Someone brought up Artistic Gymnastics, and for many years it was believed that women gymnasts reached their peak in their teens. Recently, the average age of athletes has increased and so has the athletic difficulty that many gymnasts are performing. Now most people think gymnasts peak in their twenties. People noticed that many of the advocates for the necessity of youth for success in the sport, were often later exposed as being very abusive toward the athletes they coached.I don't care how an athlete looks. I don't care if that athlete is male or female. I do care about reducing injury and abuse. I think it is harder to abuse grown adults. So, for this reason, ideally, all athletes would be legal adults.
That’s even handed at least. So, everyone may only compete in seniors after they are fully 18 years of age. What happens with the transition window from juniors to seniors? Does it get extended to 22 years of age to have the same 4 years grace period? Is minimum age for JGP raised to 16 as well, so basically former junior division is eliminated and current seniors will for the most part will be still junior-eligible. Or will you put a 13 yo in the same competition with a 21 yo?

 

[Anna K.]

I am concerned about all young figure skaters, male or female, ice dancer, pairs skater, and singles skater. I do think that having youths dominate a sport makes the athletes in that sport more susceptible to abuse. ( Not just the women, sexism is manifest in many ways including "caring"for weak women when young men are also frequently injured and abused ) It is easier for adult coaches/ parents/ athletic directors to control kids than adults. Someone brought up Artistic Gymnastics, and for many years it was believed that women gymnasts reached their peak in their teens. Recently, the average age of athletes has increased and so has the athletic difficulty that many gymnasts are performing. Now most people think gymnasts peak in their twenties. People noticed that many of the advocates for the necessity of youth for success in the sport, were often later exposed as being very abusive toward the athletes they coached.I don't care how an athlete looks. I don't care if that athlete is male or female. I do care about reducing injury and abuse. I think it is harder to abuse grown adults. So, for this reason, ideally, all athletes would be legal adults.
That’s even handed at least. So, everyone may only compete in seniors after they are fully 18 years of age. What happens with the transition window from juniors to seniors? Does it get extended to 22 years of age to have the same 4 years grace period? Is minimum age for JGP raised to 16 as well, so basically former junior division is eliminated and current seniors will for the most part will be still junior-eligible. Or will you put a 13 yo in the same competition with a 21 yo?

This.
To prevent child abuse or child exploitation in "big sport", all athletes should be legal adults. However, the problem is that the age when a person is legally an adult differs from country to country from 16 to 18 to 21 and then there is also "adult enough to" factor, like, adult enough to get married but not adult enough to drink alcohol
Tbh I think that 16 is adult enough for sport (even for women, even in figure skating, even to be women in figure skating). However, I'd see no problem with 18 years either. Just add another junior category, like, "junior seniors" or "senior juniors"

 

[Parksideprince]

Or boys! I need to look at a male skater and see a man in his prime, not a waif or a boy. Raise age limit to 21, pls.

The men are generally older Michel Brezina is 31

 

[Raskolnikov]

People care so much they want to force skaters to sit three!!! more years in juniors. Ironically that is supposed to fight "abuse".
And of course it will somehow bring longevity. How is it even possible when you literally want to take out years of their senior careers is beyond me.

 

[lariko]

The men are generally older Michel Brezina is 31

Try removing everyone under 21 from the current world standing lists as long as everyone 5’6” and under in height. Why should tiny boys show up, jump quads with their arms over head and steal medals from Brezina? How could you apply the same athletic requirements to Ignatov and Kagiyama when there is a foot of height difference?

 

[[email protected]]

Really? And what about paying for ice and coach work from the very beginning? I mean, what if all figure skating schools in Russia were private.
And figure skating exists not only in Russia and USA.

It makes no sense to compare item by item. The only relevant comparison is to compare the share of the total figure skating expense in a household's income. Skates and dresses cost the same or more in Russia. It is quite obvious for me that there is 0 advantage for families in Russia, well, I had to say in Moscow and to a lesser extent St.Petersburg. Sochi has not grown big so far. And speaking about Moscow one has to understand that renting a studio in the suburbs may cost as much as an average monthly salary in small towns. So that the whole well-being of a would be champion's family from a small city is at stake when this prodigy from a region moves to Moscow. So much for this state support nonsense.

The only true reason is that families in Russia are willing to bet everything on their kids like Yulia's mother leaving all her previous life behind and going to Moscow with Yulia. In the U.S. families might think of the whole matter a bit differently.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

Anna S. fell on a quad, too.

Anna fell on a quads, but it was the only one, and she won thanks to the rest of the program, where quads were no longer there. Therefore, it can in no way be said that she received first place due to jumps unattainable for other participants. Plus, at the team championship, she skated the same program cleanly.

Trusova included five quads in the program, really betting on the complexity and completely sacrificing everything else. But I would not blame her for this, because it was a desperate act in a desperate situation. And it is quite possible that Mariah Bell in the same situation, if she was able to perform so many quads, would have done the same

 

[StitchMonkey]

This.
To prevent child abuse or child exploitation in "big sport", all athletes should be legal adults. However, the problem is that the age when a person is legally an adult differs from country to country from 16 to 18 to 21 and then there is also "adult enough to" factor, like, adult enough to get married but not adult enough to drink alcohol
Tbh I think that 16 is adult enough for sport (even for women, even in figure skating, even to be women in figure skating). However, I'd see no problem with 18 years either. Just add another junior category, like, "junior seniors" or "senior juniors"

I am not sure it would be that much an issue to say "legal by your county's standards". Yes we have different ages, but we have different cultures.

I also think there might be other paths such as limited conservatorships, or emancipation or possibly other legal paths that i am unaware of that other countries do. That could be a compromise for the as you put it "adult enough" territory. But at the end of the day... i am really starting to feel that if you are going to compete as a senior, you should at a minimum be able to sign a legally binding contract yourself.

 

[jenaj]

People care so much they want to force skaters to sit three!!! more years in juniors. Ironically that is supposed to fight "abuse".
And of course it will somehow bring longevity. How is it even possible when you literally want to take out years of their senior careers is beyond me.

So why is the age limit 15? Why not just have no age limit, just a certain skill level. It actually used to be like that. In the US, skaters like Michelle Kwan and Tara Lipinski were eligible to compete at the senior level at age 13 (I think Michelle even competed as a senior when she was 12). The difference then, however, was that the judging system allowed the judges to "hold back" younger skaters, whose artistic and sometimes, technical skills were not fully developed. Now, TES rules, and the skaters who win at a young age never develop true artistry as competitors because they are out of the game by age 17.

 

[lariko]

Now, TES rules, and the skaters who win at a young age never develop true artistry as competitors because they are out of the game by age 17.

This is patently untrue. If they are artistic, they are artistic. Plenty of 20+ skaters are criticized for lack of artistry. Uno would outperform anyone any time in his career. And, well, pretty much each and everyone of those teenage women (particularly those who left), is lauded for artistry, musicality and all that. The only exception is Trusova, but she hasn’t left yet.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

It would be for many Russians and other non-US fans.

In Russian women's figure skating, it has long been considered an unprecedented happiness to receive at least a bronze medal. There were many years when they were not even near the pedestal. But I don’t remember anyone in Russia complaining about the boredom caused by the dominance of athletes from other countries.

 

[nussnacker]

If the goal is to get rid of high scoring russians, then with the age limit increased that goal won’t be achieved.
I’m pretty sure it will only mean that Sasha, Anna, Aliona, Kamila, Maiia and Daria will keep topping the podium, knowing their competition will stay in juniors for several more years.

If the goal is for the kids not to train quads at a young age, well, you’re around 5 years too late for that. It’s easier to learn jumps young and then re-learn them in case you lose them with puberty, rather than learning them anew when you’re 17-18. Alysa is the living proof of that, she almost got that 3A back, and that considering how poor her technique was/is. No one’s going to do postpone learning jumps until 17-18.

At the end of the day, I don’t see what goals this will achieve. Definitely won’t stop russian dominance, since this is the concern of the thread. I can say, I don’t even mind it generally if the age was raised, except for maybe the case of Akatieva. She’s the only skater I want to see go head to head with seniors, she’s just too good and head and shoulders above everyone in her own age category.

 

[el henry]

Male skaters rarely talk about it, but some do speak out about eating disorders. It’s a troubling topic. But it is also troubling that everyone is okay with male skaters being on average shorter or thinner than average and if they are young, well, look, they are charmingly boyish and nobody ever requested them to have wider shoulders, divide them by height or or discuss how the podium is really boys, not senior men or how they are unnaturally flexible vs muscle bound, how their upper body is lacking in girth and biceps are not in evidence.

Fans exhibit sort of parental attitude toward senior men and sort of mate-searching toward senior women.

I started the thread on male skaters and eating disorders, so I am well aware of it. It's very sad and troubling. Many others posted in that thread, including some here who have posted with concerns for women. If you would like to revive it, I would welcome it.

https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/threads/eating-disorders-among-men-in-skating-shawn-sawyer-joe-johnson-sean-rabbitt-speak-out.88324/#post-2755815

Jumping off and not directed at any language in this post, I don't understand an argument that those who are worried about women's eating disorders are not worried about men's. From what I have seen, not true. Also, rhose who are worried about the age limit for women based on health are also worried for the health of men.

There are no "double standards" in the posts I have seen and that does not countermand those posts' argument to raise the age. There may be other arguments pro and con, but not a double standard.

 

[lariko]

I started the thread on male skaters and eating disorders, so I am well aware of it. It's very sad and troubling. Many others posted in that thread, including some here who have posted with concerns for women. If you would like to revive it, I would welcome it.

https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/threads/eating-disorders-among-men-in-skating-shawn-sawyer-joe-johnson-sean-rabbitt-speak-out.88324/#post-2755815

Jumping off and not directed at any language in this post, I don't understand an argument that those who are worried about women's eating disorders are not worried about men's. From what I have seen, not true. Also, rhose who are worried about the age limit for women based on health are also worried for the health of men.

There are no "double standards" in the posts I have seen and that does not countermand those posts' argument to raise the age. There may be other arguments pro and con, but not a double standard.

Original post is titled only for women and specifically refers to senior women competing without breaking any rules disparagingly as girls, and later on, another poster calls them babies. If the post set out the different categorization for all skaters and actually stated the concern for anything but girls skating instead of women… no problems. But this kind of attitude dismissing the achievements of women and hyper-fixating on their appearances and questioning if they are women at all or if they can be called artists is unacceptable. It is also in acceptable to say that they steal—steal!—medals.