Raise The Senior Ladies Age To 17 Please!

[lariko]

So why not allow 12-years girls in juniors or even younger? Some of them already have quads, but who knows what will happen in a year or two.

Because they have their own competitive category and junior period is already 6 years allowing for variation of growth and motor skills development. The 15 yo entry in both men and women doesn't mean they all have to start at 15, they have a 4 year window to chose their peak. Sure, some women started seniors at 15 because they were ready to compete at that level, but not all of them, and the same happens in men. It is long enough and averaged. If you start at 17, then to compensate, the window needs to widen upward, allowing them to stay in juniors till 21, because if they only have two years for transition an injury at the wrong time is far more consequential. Then you get junior division encompassing 13 to 21.

I would also want to note that sports all have specificity. I remember seeing male gymnasts in Olympics this summer, and they make pair male skaters look like willowy adolescents. Gymnastics routines are shorter and burstier. Skating relies on endurance component of fitness more. Body type for men for single skating is less representative of an average adult men than for women. But, again and again, it is the women who draw scrutiny.

 

[alexocfp]

People getting hung up an age. Age is just a number.

18 being “adult” is just an arbitrary western culture thing.

You can be an “adult” at 16 if you have proper life experiences and maturity, or you can be 35 and still not be an adult. People are different.

There is no one size fits all when it comes to age. Different countries look at age differently.

Raising the age level means the best skaters aren’t seen by a mainstream audience. Kamila is great. She transcends age. Who cares how old she is. Can she perform the elements correctly? That’s what I care about.

Also, the American sports that have age requirements because they have drafts and there is a crap load of politics behind that.

The world’s sport, football, has 16 year olds occasionally playing too. But team sports are different.

Tennis has a hybrid where you are limited in the amount of tournaments you play, and that limit gets reduced and eliminated as you get older.

There are 17 year olds in skiing. Not a lot but a few.

In other sports, the youngsters are considered prodigies, but it figure skating it’s a black mark. Why?

If anything, these youngsters bringing in a younger audience helps the sport grow and brings the average age viewer down, which is good. You don’t want the average age of a sports fan ti be increasing every year.

 

[Alegria]

Because they have their own competitive category and junior period is already 6 years allowing for variation of growth and motor skills development. The 15 yo entry in both men and women doesn't mean they all have to start at 15, they have a 4 year window to chose their peak. Sure, some women started seniors at 15 because they were ready to compete at that level, but not all of them, and the same happens in men. It is long enough and averaged. If you start at 17, then to compensate, the window needs to widen upward, allowing them to stay in juniors till 21, because if they only have two years for transition an injury at the wrong time is far more consequential. Then you get junior division encompassing 13 to 21.

But we were talking about time to shine. If someone decided to shine at 12, why not?
And it's not like they really decided it. It's all mother nature. At 15 Medvedeva could jump 3-3-3 combo, but it wasn't her choice not to be able to jump it later. Zagitova at 15 could jump 0-7, but later couldn't. It wasn't a choice.
As I said before, II can't remember any man/pair/dance skaters who decided to shine at 15 and quit after. Tessa Virtue was only 20 years old when she won olympic gold medal. But she decided to underwent surgery just to be able to compete again. Aljona Savchenko was able to get her gold medal at 34. It wasn't her choice, it was her dream.

 

[McBibus]

Wait a minute, who restricted them from competing after 17? It was ISU who restricted Medvedeva and Zagitova from competing this season?
It was also a choice. Their choice.

yes: in a way it is ISU.
Injury free Alina and Zenya could still play the scene with their triples like (lookijng at the last week) Mariah and Loena did.
But anything from ISU is rationed and balanced to the please the feds ISU is made of.
How an everything champion and anything but Olympic champion can find motivation to skate to not even be able to have a full season?

WC, EU, Olympics have only 3 spots (if your country won last time)
grand prix final has only 6 spots
grand prix stage are just qualifier, not real competitions because the best skaters are splits into different stage to avoid crossing paths before the final.
There is no calendar to keep skating once you can't make your national team anymore and that is on ISU that works figure skating like a minor sport solely interesting from the skaters and their relative.
I don't know the real potential of figure skating, but it does not look like ISU is even trying to make it a sport from which good athletes (not just olympic or 3 times WC can make a good living out of it.
It may be ok for the feds, but it's not good enough for the skaters.

 

[lariko]

But we were talking about time to shine. If someone decided to shine at 12, why not?
And it's not like they really decided it. It's all mother nature. At 15 Medvedeva could jump 3-3-3 combo, but it wasn't her choice not to be able to jump it later. Zagitova at 15 could jump 0-7, but later couldn't. It wasn't a choice.
As I said before, II can't remember any man/pair/dance skaters who decided to shine at 15 and quit after. Tessa Virtue was only 20 years old when she won olympic gold medal. But she decided to underwent surgery just to be able to compete again. Aljona Savchenko was able to get her gold medal at 34. It wasn't her choice, it was her dream.

Medvedva didn't leave immediately after entering seniors after becoming age eligible. She competed for a few years, winning Olympic silver when she was 18-19.

Scott Allen won Olympic bronze (men) at 15, didn't skate for that much longer after that (4 years, finishing by 19).

That's why the window of entry into seniors is 4 year wide, allowing for flexibility, because they all develop differently. Why punish early success and praise late success? What stops 17 yo from competing for 2 seasons in seniors and leaving?

Again, there is no one size fits all, and why is it necessary to fix every discipline into ice-dance-like stagnation? They all have different dynamics depending on the acting skaters. In the end, it is a small sport with a tiny likelihood of success. And those who almost made it don't really get much to show for years of dedication.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

yes: in a way it is ISU.
Injury free Alina and Zenya could still play the scene with their triples like (lookijng at the last week) Mariah and Loena did.

It's not about injury. Loena started figure skating when she was 4 years old and although she has neither 3A nor quadruple jumps, she suffered a spinal fracture a few years ago. But she returned to the ice. It is much more difficult for Zagitova and Medvedeva to do this, because the level of competition is incomparable. In Belgium, Loene simply has no one to fight for a place in the Olympic team, and Zagitova would have to defeat the strongest skaters.

Today, setting age limits means slowing down the development of women's figure skating, and at the same time, if the risk of injury decreases, then only slightly. Time will pass, the number of quadruple jumps will reach its limit, and sooner or later those athletes who are 20-25 years old will be able to perform them. Then the problem itself will recede into the past.

 

[Alegria]

It's not about injury. Loena started figure skating when she was 4 years old and although she has neither 3A nor quadruple jumps, she suffered a spinal fracture a few years ago. But she returned to the ice. It is much more difficult for Zagitova and Medvedeva to do this, because the level of competition is incomparable. In Belgium, Loene simply has no one to fight for a place in the Olympic team, and Zagitova would have to defeat the strongest skaters.

I also think so. Loena got financial support from her federation for the first time when she got olympic spot at WC in 2017. I wonder how far would Zagitova and Medvedeva reach if they had to pay for everything with no strong federation behind.
I don't think, that things much more easier for Satoko. But she is still fighting. Or was it easier for Nagasu?

 

[SNAKSuyun]

My concern is with general health. I don't mind quads and 3As much with the men because we've seen that many men are able to successfully keep training/jumping both way into their 20s. I mind quads and 3As (and especially quads) with the women because it seems that we have very few women who can sustain more than one ultra C element for more than 2 years. The current emphasis on ultra C elements in the women's field mean that 15- and 16-year old girls are overrepresented at the top level, and we do not have many medalists who can go on and have long, illustrated careers (like Yuzuru, Nathan, Yuna, Mao etc). If this trend continues, then I'd prefer that they lower the value of ultra C elements a little, kinda like what AG has done with Simone Biles (or at least, stop tying PCS as strongly to TES). This means the girls who CAN and WANT to compete the ultra C skills can still continue to do so, but hopefully the field will stop obsessively chasing over them to the same extent and some more time and energy can be devoted to other things.

 

[Draculus]

In a way it would totally make sense in any sport to go from juniors to seniors at the age of 18, because that's the age when you legally become an adult (in most countries).

Legally become an adult means you can drive, have a gun (in some places), vote, marry, etc. A lot of differences between 'adult' and 'not an adult'.
What is the differences between junior and senior sport competition?

 

[arewhyaen]

I guess my issue with the current onslaught of Eteri girls dominating FS for the last 2 olympic cycles is the whiplash of who is the top women's skater -- as it changes from season to season depending on who's healthy and who is jumping the most difficult jumps. I get that all body types are different and develop differently, but it has to be more than coincidence that every Eteri girl seems to peak at 15/16, experiences jump issues around 17-19, and calls it quits before 20.

My issue is that part of the joy of seeing your fave skaters win gold is you got to see their journey through the WHOLE olympic quad. And joining the skaters through their ups and downs is one of the best parts of being a skating fan. But lately, it feels like the trend isn't about watching someone's olympic journey to olympic gold (Nathan Chen and Liz Tuktamysheva are good examples of skaters I'm particularly invested in during this quad). Now it feels like the ladies champion will no longer be who was the strongest skater of the last 4 years, but rather, who from the Eteri camp is 15/16 at the time of the olympics. And while its impressive to watch, its harder to be invested.

 

[Draculus]

So why not allow 12-years girls in juniors or even younger? Some of them already have quads, but who knows what will happen in a year or two.

I would just remove minimum age from any competition, the whole idea of a 'junior league' is to have a 'maximum age'.
Or more general - one of the ways to 'remove top players so we can better see those who are below'.
Another way of doing it - have a different leagues of fixed sizes and every season top and bottom move to league above/below (how it is done in football and many other sports, actually even in figure skating this logic is implemented a little bit).

 

[Draculus]

If anything, these youngsters bringing in a younger audience helps the sport grow and brings the average age viewer down, which is good. You don’t want the average age of a sports fan ti be increasing every year.

Actually a very good point. There are a lot of videos of Kamilla/Anna/Sasha/... surrounded by a very young kids, so they can take a photo or just touch their idol. Unfortunately, I do not see the same with Tuktik, and just because she is an adult.

Younger idols are easier for children and this is very important.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I guess my issue with the current onslaught of Eteri girls dominating FS for the last 2 olympic cycles is the whiplash of who is the top women's skater -- as it changes from season to season depending on who's healthy and who is jumping the most difficult jumps. I get that all body types are different and develop differently, but it has to be more than coincidence that every Eteri girl seems to peak at 15/16, experiences jump issues around 17-19, and calls it quits before 20.

My issue is that part of the joy of seeing your fave skaters win gold is you got to see their journey through the WHOLE olympic quad. And joining the skaters through their ups and downs is one of the best parts of being a skating fan. But lately, it feels like the trend isn't about watching someone's olympic journey to olympic gold (Nathan Chen and Liz Tuktamysheva are good examples of skaters I'm particularly invested in during this quad). Now it feels like the ladies champion will no longer be who was the strongest skater of the last 4 years, but rather, who from the Eteri camp is 15/16 at the time of the olympics. And while its impressive to watch, its harder to be invested.

I think you/us should be involved in a skating performance, not into a name of a skater, So no, and this is my replica to various previous posts too, you should not idolizing someone's persona in a sport, but sports performances. No mater who is the athlete or a team behind it. And i can post a scientific essay why idolizing (or being too involved in one person) is not really a good point to begin with, but there are other places you can read about that

 

[liv]

Tennis used to have the young superkids who burned bright and then burned out. They upped the age and now the players seem more grounded, less prone to burning out and are playing longer etc.. fewer cases of Jennifer Capriati. Gymnastics upped the ages and now there's longevity there too. Both were sports of young girls put on the world stage at very young ages... both now have age requirements. I'm not saying skating should copy them, but I would not be upset by it.

 

[lariko]

My issue is that part of the joy of seeing your fave skaters win gold is you got to see their journey through the WHOLE olympic quad. And joining the skaters through their ups and downs is one of the best parts of being a skating fan. But lately, it feels like the trend isn't about watching someone's olympic journey to olympic gold (Nathan Chen and Liz Tuktamysheva are good examples of skaters I'm particularly invested in during this quad).

What if I don’t want to watch Chen or Brown year after year? What if I want to watch Mozalev and there is almost no chances to see him internationally because there is simply no places for these new guys, because all the spots are booked. At least in women, I saw 3A in GP/Eu, but next year if they are going to hold positions, Murav’yeva and Samodelkina, let alone Frolova, will not be able to get out into GP. What is going to happen to Sinitsina? I mean… do we lose everyone who were born in the wrong years?

 

[nussnacker]

The current emphasis on ultra C elements in the women's field mean that 15- and 16-year old girls are overrepresented at the top level, and we do not have many medalists who can go on and have long, illustrated careers (like Yuzuru, Nathan, Yuna, Mao etc).

Actually, I would say Yuna and Mao are perfect representation how technical revolution they started at ages 15-16 helped them dominate for many years. 3Lz/3F-3T were not something common before Yuna and Mao, and these two dominated for years because being so ahead in tech helped them to stay competitive for many years. Yuna’s records were unbroken for at least 6 years. That’s a testament to a high bar these two ladies set for women’s skating.
Yuzu was also at the forefront of male technical revolution, with his generation quads became a must have for all men in order to win. Subsequently that evolved to 4-5-6 quads per program in a matter of 2-3 years.

 

[lariko]

And, in addition, the only male skaters who end up on the world podium are the ones who are able to land at least 3 quads consistently, which is a technical rarity. That technical rarity gave longevity to Chen, Hanyu, Uno and Zhou. Now there is Kagiyama. Since 2018, while we had a wonderful diversity in women’s field and a turn around on the world podium, all we see in men are Chen, Hanyu + one more. Like… how’s that fun? I mean, Zhou managed to outskate Chen for the first time since 2018, and omg, sensation, sensation, alert the press! Then Chen restored the balance. Colour me excited. And god forbid anyone new advances in male skating! God forbid! Bring out PCSs! Stack up the GoE! Prop up the older guys! Same guys, always.

The senior men skating I saw in GP this season was messy, exciting and unpredictable. But did the podiums and the points reflected that? Nope. It should have been a wider spread of placements that ended up in the final, but somehow the finalists all ended up no lower than the second position. And if Hanyu was there? Even less spread. But that’s not reality. In reality, only Uno put two solid, unassailable performances, with Kagiyama (if I am generous to his free in France) and Zhou each having one. Everyone else was no better or not significantly better than the guys who didn’t make it, Grassl, Tomono, Ignatov and Sato. Brown and Kolyada in particular had 4/4 unsuccessful routines. On probability, with this kind of randomness, it should have been a blend of old and new and at least one of those 4 should have made it instead of either Brown or Kolyada. At least one! but look, no. It’s the same guys. Magic.

I mean, y’all still want to see Zagitova vs Medvedeva play out for the fourth time running? Really? People root for Tuktamysheva because there is so much competition and they are all different contenders and any of them can snatch the golden ring. You didn’t like Valieva showing up? You really would have minded less if it was Zagitova all these 3 years winning everything like Chen? That would have made you happier?

What’s the longest thread on this forum? Russian women.

Do you all love playing ice dance part of the prediction contest the most or what? Because, like, there everything is known in advance pretty much and hadn’t change since 2018, except Virtue and Moir retired. Wow. Will P/C win gold this Olympics? Oh, my, I am hyperventilating from suspense.

 

[anonymoose_au]

I will say...thanks to YouTube and Instagram it is now at least possible to follow a skater from their very youngest years...at least the Russians (but I've noticed that the Australian Figure Skating Association also streams a lot of their local competitions too).

So the argument that the age range should be raised purely so fans can get to "know" the skaters doesn't really hold water.

But then I guess if you don't like novice and junior skating that doesn't really help, but if you like the ability to follow a skater's journey it's cool.

 

[Tomadeur]

In most sports it doesn't matter if there are age restrictions or not because you won't be able to compete with the best in your sport until your 20s or later (especially endurance sports). This is also the reason why the comparison to the nfl or nba is total nonsense as no player under 18 in these sports is anywhere near the best athletes in basketball or football (with the sole exception of Lebron James). The average age of the world or olympic champions in figure skating is by far lower that in every other sport (at least 99% of all sports). This got even more extreme in the last few years as before there were some few taltented youngsters competing and winning at worlds or olympics but not in the sheer mass as today.

Most sports where (at least some) young athletes are able to compete among the best as in swimming, skate boarding, tennis or rhythmic gymnastics. often don't have age restrictions or are at least not stricter than figure skating right now. I personally want to see the best in the sport no matter the age.

There are rightfully some discussions about the PCS-judging, the weighting between technic and artistry, the influence of ultra c elements and so on. But raising the age restrictions wouldn't be a proper solution for any of them.

In my eyes there is only one thing to justify a raise in the age restriction and that is the health and protection of junior skaters. I'm no coach nor am I skating myself but I'm sure that raising the age would only be of a postive influence with many more adaptions. If you ban 16 year olds from senior competitions they won't train less hard than before. If you ban quads from junior competitions but allow them in senior competitons no junior will stop working on quads. And so on. If I dons't imrpove the situation of juniors and soley banning them from senior competitons nothing is gained at all.

As of now I haven't read a good reasoning and supplementing strategy for raising the age restriction. As long as that is the case I'm totally against raising the age restrictions.

 

[Amei]

My concern is with general health. I don't mind quads and 3As much with the men because we've seen that many men are able to successfully keep training/jumping both way into their 20s. I mind quads and 3As (and especially quads) with the women because it seems that we have very few women who can sustain more than one ultra C element for more than 2 years. The current emphasis on ultra C elements in the women's field mean that 15- and 16-year old girls are overrepresented at the top level, and we do not have many medalists who can go on and have long, illustrated careers (like Yuzuru, Nathan, Yuna, Mao etc). If this trend continues, then I'd prefer that they lower the value of ultra C elements a little, kinda like what AG has done with Simone Biles (or at least, stop tying PCS as strongly to TES). This means the girls who CAN and WANT to compete the ultra C skills can still continue to do so, but hopefully the field will stop obsessively chasing over them to the same extent and some more time and energy can be devoted to other things.

My issue with your argument is that you are comparing men's skating where having triple axels/quads be a general requirement for the top skaters for how many years now, whereas senior ladies skating we are still in the infancy stage of of quads and/or triple axels being pretty much a necessity. So while the up and comer men are coming to the senior ranks with these elements, there is also a pool of established senior skaters with those elements already.

Shcherbakova and Trusova are the pioneers for senior ladies doing quads consistently in their program layouts as pioneers of it that means no one was doing them consistently before which means the ladies field of the 'established' skaters weren't training those elements its only the up and comers - I've said for a long time that it was a foul on everyone's part that the established senior ladies didn't appear to take seriously the 2 junior skaters doing quads and had to wait till those 2 were smoking them in competition to realize that quads and multiple triple axels in programs were going to be a thing and they might not be able to win any longer with only 1-2 triple-triple combinations.

I think it's too early to say whether the ladies doing quads/triple axels consistently are or are not going to have 'long, illustrated' careers, Shcherbakova and Trusova have been doing quads for 4-5 years now (3 years as seniors), both girls are 17 and appear fairly steady with those elements, even through the 'puberty monster' and extended time off the ice due to pandemic and injuries. Mao Asada was doing triple axels into her 20s, as is Tuktamysheva currently doing. Additionally, as the established senior skaters were not working on the quads/triple axels and those are the big-point elements, that does mean that we can have a time where the younger skaters are dominating until we cycle a bit out of the current group of 'established' ladies skaters who were competing in a time when quads/triple axels weren't a requirement.