Raise The Senior Ladies Age To 17 Please!

[lariko]

21 year old men in ice dance and pairs are allowed. So, this wouldn't change anything.

I have never seen in practice a 13 yo pair male skater, not even in Russia.

I understand your focus, but the women who transitioned at 15 and quoted in OP did it successfully, while men who normally transition later, not at 15 yo low limit, do not find success in seniors with rare exceptions (or at least since 2018). It is an aspect of this transition, so pushing up the limit cannot disregard the consequences it will have for everyone.

 

[Tinymavy15]

Alysa Liu was doing 3 axels and training quads since she was 13. The fact that she was stuck in Junior did not change that.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I disagree with your view that "artistic" criteria are part of TES. I know of no ISU document that says that. Her jumps should have nothing to do with her performance or interpretation. Things like under-rotations should not affect those scores (Satoko doesn't fall very much, so those are the only things that maybe are not "clean"). Her average scores for those components were in the 8's at her recent Grand Prix events.

Just read the bullet points for the GOE, and criteria for the componets. It is not my or anybody's view, it is the way how the scoring system is working.

 

[brakes]

1951-2006 (NO COMPLAINTS about age limit):

1. Sonya Klopfer - World Bronze Medalist at 16,
2. Tenley Albright - Olympic Silver Medalist at 16,
3. Carol Heiss - World Silver Medalist at 15, Olympic Silver Medalist at 16,
4. Peggy Fleming - World Bronze Medalist at 16,
5. Dorothy Hamill - World Silver Medalist at 17,
6. Linda Fratianne - World Champion at 16,
7. Elaine Zayak - World Silver Medalist at 15, World Champion at 16,
8. Tiffany Chin - World Bronze Medalist at 17,
9. Nicole Bobek - World Bronze Medalist at 17,
10. Michelle Kwan - World Champion at 15,
11. Tara Lipinski - World Champion at 14, Olympic Champion at 15,
12. Sarah Hughes - World Bronze Medalist at 15, Olympic Champion at 16,
13. Kimmie Meissner - World Champion at 16.

2007-now (COMPLAINTS about age limit):

1. Ashley Wagner - World Silver Medalist at 24.



Remember, it's not about Russians or Americans...

 

[Skate88]

Every time I post this I get attacked but this is ridiculous. I'm watching Cup of Russia and these two 15yos are doing triple axels and quads with arms over their heads. Here's my problem. What happens is these girls come to the surface, with their tricks and snatch world and Olympic medals from ladies that have devoted years to the sport. Then they hit a growth spurt and retire OR can't do the tricks anymore and fall down the leaderboards. Skaters like Elizabeth Tuktamushava, Wakabi Haguchi, Bradie Tennell and Karen Chen have worked hard and if these 15yos come in snatch the medals and bounce, where's the fairness in that? How are they senior when they're bodies aren't fully developed? I didn't like it when Tara Lipinski won in 1998 and bounced to be honest. Insert hateful comment below.

The solution is simple. The ability to rotate airborne is NOT and never will be a skating skill. It is a GYMNASTIC skill. Change the rules so that quads are not valued over phenomenal spins and footwork. When was the last time you saw a great spinner ? Ruh , Bielmann, Lambiel…. Unbelievably fast and breathtaking spins worth any quad yet the scoring system values the ability to rotate airborne above skating. I stopped watching most ladies a couple of years ago when I got sick of watching quads and dog leg supposed laybacks by skaters only wanting points. When was the last time you saw a layback like Cohen did them? Change the point system to devalue quads . Age limits ironically stopped brilliant skaters like Cohen compete at worlds at her peak.I’m disgusted with these girls just jumping . But changing the age limit is unfair. Changing the rules to value incredibly difficult spins and footwork and also jump combinations above quads would make a world of difference. I’ve been watching skating for over 50 years and almost none of the women now can hold a candle to the SKATING of people like Janet Lynn or The edging of Yuka Sato…. I test my case.

 

[Skate88]

The solution is simple. The ability to rotate airborne is NOT and never will be a skating skill. It is a GYMNASTIC skill. Change the rules so that quads are not valued over phenomenal spins and footwork. When was the last time you saw a great spinner ? Ruh , Bielmann, Lambiel…. Unbelievably fast and breathtaking spins worth any quad yet the scoring system values the ability to rotate airborne above skating. I stopped watching most ladies a couple of years ago when I got sick of watching quads and dog leg supposed laybacks by skaters only wanting points. When was the last time you saw a layback like Cohen did them? Change the point system to devalue quads . Age limits ironically stopped brilliant skaters like Cohen compete at worlds at her peak.I’m disgusted with these Russian incredibly thin (alarmingly so) girls just jumping . But changing the age limit is unfair. Changing the rules to value incredibly difficult spins and footwork and also jump combinations above quads would make a world of difference. I’ve been watching skating for over 50 years and almost none of the women now can hold a candle to the SKATING of people like Janet Lynn or The edging of Yuka Sato…. I test my case.

I rest my case. Sorry for typo.

 

[andmoniker]

Every time I post this I get attacked but this is ridiculous. I'm watching Cup of Russia and these two 15yos are doing triple axels and quads with arms over their heads. Here's my problem. What happens is these girls come to the surface, with their tricks and snatch world and Olympic medals from ladies that have devoted years to the sport. Then they hit a growth spurt and retire OR can't do the tricks anymore and fall down the leaderboards. Skaters like Elizabeth Tuktamushava, Wakabi Haguchi, Bradie Tennell and Karen Chen have worked hard and if these 15yos come in snatch the medals and bounce, where's the fairness in that? How are they senior when they're bodies aren't fully developed? I didn't like it when Tara Lipinski won in 1998 and bounced to be honest. Insert hateful comment below.

Just for your information, Elizabeth Tuktamysheva herself was already competing at her first senior Grand Prix event by the time she was only 14.

2011 Skate Canada International - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Don't you find it ludicrous to use her in an argument in favor of raising the age limit? Don't you find it hypocritical when she herself says she supports raising the age limit? Further on, you claim people being hateful to you for disagreeing that skaters like Tuktamysheva should receive special privileges because they 'devoted years to the sport'. Well, you yourself are being dismissive of the current 15 year olds most of whom have been already skating from the age of 4, and already devoted most of their life to the figure skating. By the time these girls reach seniors they have already experienced higher competition than any previous generation before them, yet somehow you're willing to deny them competing at the higher level solely on the age principle.

Here's a counter proposal: lower the age limit to 13 so that the skaters of equal abilities could compete with each other. This will lengthen skaters' senior careers by at least two years, and we'd also be seeing a lot less 15 year old champions dominating the sport - since this is your major concern there's no reason why you should be in opposition.

 

[Lzbee]

When was the last time you saw a great spinner ?

Kamila Valieva...??? She would absolutely still win hands down if spins were worth more.

When was the last time you saw a layback like Cohen did them?

Karen Chen, Satoko Miyahara.

I also think current top Biellmann spins are better than ever. They're faster, have more flexibility and are centered (sometimes too much flexibility though).

In fact, the younger generation often have better spins than the seniors because flexibility, balance and rotation speed are easier to get before puberty.

 

[Joekaz]

I rest my case. Sorry for typo.

You make alot of good points. I think the artistic/presentation aspect of skating needs much more emphasis in the scoring. Being a great skater is much more than what you do below the waist. Its about how coordinated and graceful your whole body looks while you execute the movements with your skates. They could also bring back the compulsory figures, which is where the sport got its name, which would further reward skating skill and in practice would raise the ages of the top girls without mandating it.

 

[[email protected]]

You make alot of good points. I think the artistic/presentation aspect of skating needs much more emphasis in the scoring. Being a great skater is much more than what you do below the waist. Its about how coordinated and graceful your whole body looks while you execute the movements with your skates. They could also bring back the compulsory figures, which is where the sport got its name, which would further reward skating skill and in practice would raise the ages of the top girls without mandating it.

I don't agree. You find Wakaba artistic - I don't. Judges are on the average closer to my standpoint. Wakaba's fans are not happy about that shouting here and there about "underscoring". Why should we multiply this conflict by 2? I think on the opposite. The more objectivity is brought to FS, the better. Artistry is by no means objective.

 

[lariko]

That’s the thing. Placing bigger emphasis on artistry, and making one skater a standard of artistry will make everyone try to copy because they get the most points. Everyone can be declared non-artistic by anyone because that claim is so cheap and tastes differ. If you go by what majority likes, then you would absolutely stifle creativity and individuality, instead of fostering that.

They have those achievement awards nowadays, right? Why not give one out for artistic influence of the year?

Also, if people started to watch junior competitions, maybe some of those complaints about quick turn around and showing out of nowhere/not working hard enough and lack of artistry went away.

 

[lariko]

I would also like to highlight one more time my point about women vs men:

More women compete and participates in figure skating than men
More women move from juniors to seniors successfully than men
More women achieve medals in seniors than men and that success comes earlier in life
Women, even with the integration of complex elements put out more refined performances than men

If anything, it’s men’s division that should be reviewed in terms of providing incentives and age restrictions for a more desirable career path and sense of achievement in early seniors. Washing out or blocking talented junior men after they have to sit out injuries or blocking them so the older guys might hang in there for a few years longer is not great.

 

[nussnacker]

1951-2006 (NO COMPLAINS about age limit):

1. Sonya Klopfer - World Bronze Medalist at 16,
2. Tenley Albright - Olympic Silver Medalist at 16,
3. Carol Heiss - World Silver Medalist at 15, Olympic Silver Medalist at 16,
4. Peggy Fleming - World Bronze Medalist at 16,
5. Dorothy Hamill - World Silver Medalist at 17,
6. Linda Fratianne - World Champion at 16,
7. Elaine Zayak - World Silver Medalist at 15, World Champion at 16,
8. Tiffany Chin - World Bronze Medalist at 17,
9. Nicole Bobek - World Bronze Medalist at 17,
10. Michelle Kwan - World Champion at 15,
11. Tara Lipinski - World Champion at 14, Olympic Champion at 15,
12. Sarah Hughes - World Bronze Medalist at 15, Olympic Champion at 15,
13. Kimmie Meissner - World Champion at 16.

2007-now (COMPLAINS about age limit):

1. Ashley Wagner - World Silver Medalist at 24.



Remember, it's not about Russians or Americans...

but hey, you don’t get it, this is different. The above mentioned weren’t STEALING the medals and Russians are doing that

Jokes aside, I think raising the age limit should be coupled with some other offer, like allowing quads for ladies in the SP. If at least that’s done, I’m all for it.

 

[lesnar001]

Age limits ironically stopped brilliant skaters like Cohen compete at worlds at her peak.

Maybe I'm mistaken (as it was many years ago), but I believe she would have qualified for Senior Worlds in 2000 except that she only finished 6th at Junior Worlds. So if that's the case, it was her performance at Jr Worlds that stopped her, not her age.

Also - I would not consider 2000 anywhere near her "peak". That would be from 2002-2006, when she did compete at Worlds.
I think she did not compete at Worlds in 2001 because she was injured pretty much the entire season. I don't think her age would have been a factor then if she hadn't been injured, but I'm not 100% sure.


And yes, I agree that rotating in the air is not a "skating skill", but neither is having a classic layback position rather vs a "dog-leg" type.

 

[lariko]

like allowing quads for ladies in the SP.

And 3A stand-alone in junior women.

 

[Joekaz]

I don't agree. You find Wakaba artistic - I don't. Judges are on the average closer to my standpoint. Wakaba's fans are not happy about that shouting here and there about "underscoring". Why should we multiply this conflict by 2? I think on the opposite. The more objectivity is brought to FS, the better. Artistry is by no means objective.

In practice the technical scoring is just as subjective as the artistic, with words like fast, difficult, original, high, and far all open to interpretation,as is whether an edge is unclear or wrong, or if a jump is UR, Q, or ok. Also, when I refer to artistic/presentation, Im not referring to whether you like their style. Im referring to their overall body coordination and smooth control of movements, along with good rhythm and feel for the music, whether its the balletic style, as many Russians have(which I also like very much), or the athletic more modern dance style that Higuchi excels at.

 

[lariko]

I know that figure skating community is very conservative, but if we wait 10 more years till the jumps celebrate 100 years of being part of the sport, will they then be acknowledged as the skating skill? I mean, it’s figure skating, not hockey or speed skating with spins.

 

[Grets]

I agree with Parksideprince 100%. Raising the minimum age to 17 is a good idea, in my opinion.. or maybe to 16. Seeing these young girls take all the medals actually makes the sport less enjoyable for me. There is very little longevity anymore. I'd take a Carolina Kostner or Elizaveta Tuktamysheva any day over these young girls.

 

[Amei]

I agree with Parksideprince 100%. Raising the minimum age to 17 is a good idea, in my opinion.. or maybe to 16. Seeing these young girls take all the medals actually makes the sport less enjoyable for me. There is very little longevity anymore. I'd take a Carolina Kostner or Elizaveta Tuktamysheva any day over these young girls.

They are earning the medals by working at having higher valued elements that older female skaters have had equal opportunity to acquire but have not.

How dare these younger female skaters doing something beyond the status quo!

 

[Mathman]

I know that figure skating community is very conservative, but if we wait 10 more years till the jumps celebrate 100 years of being part of the sport, will they then be acknowledged as the skating skill?

I think that the objection is not so much that jumps are included in the scoring protocols, but rather that they have come to dominate the scoriung to the detriment of other aspects of the sport. A balanced program -- that should be the goal. Whether that would make any difference on the age question I don't know.