2021-22 Russian Women's Figure Skating

[Nogagolova]

Alyona Kanysheva has completed her sports career, currently works as a coach in the figure skating league https://www.instagram.com/tv/CXLiGPaoSsV/?utm_medium=copy_link

 

[silveruskate]

As I've stated in this thread before-- I don't care who wins if it is not Aliona. There's no stake for me as a fan because well, Aliona is a long shot this season. I wasn't really referring to her jumps even as being overscored (which they are, except her 4S and 3A) but rather her PCS. As done in the calculator-- I didn't change any of her other elements-- just the jumps. I didn't change PCS/GOE. She still received a winning score. That was my point.

There are some basic issues. Kamila does not get 4/5s average on 3Lz/3F and 2A....change them all to 3s and her score is 78 SP, -1.5 from the 37.5 PCS and change the Stsq from +5 to +4 average and it's 76. She has slightly overscored GOE sure, but you're overscoring her GOE like never actually done in practice and getting mad. Your calculations are just a mess.

 

[silveruskate]

Just to be clear on what I wrote, I think the U.S. Olympic selection process is superior not because it rewards skaters for past accomplishments, but because it allows the country to make the shrewdest decisions, using all available data points, about who to send to the Olympics. Constraining your decision to the statistically insignificant results of a single event, with limited flexibility beyond that, is an asinine approach.

With a freakish RusNats, Russia could be stuck with an Olympic team of Maiia, Sasha, and Aliona, three girls who are incredibly talented, but also incredibly inconsistent and unpredictable, and are just as capable of imploding in Beijing as they are putting up big scores. If I were Japan, Korea, U.S., or even Belgium, I'd love Russia to make this mistake, as it would open up a potential path to the podium for them.

If Russia sends Kami, Anya, and Liza on the other hand, three skaters who are on the whole much more reliable and consistent (even if they were to have a one-off event like RusNats were they struggled), the likelihood of them sweeping the Olympic podium would be higher.

And surely sweeping the Olympic podium is RusFed's ultimate goal here?

(Also, this has nothing to do with U.S. skaters or performance being superior to those of Russia. Obviously, Russia has superior talent. I'm solely referring to the Olympics and Worlds team selection processes. As someone pointed out, the fact that U.S. has three Olympic spots despite their lack of talent is evidence in itself that their approach is a savvy one.)

(And, yes, I realize RusFed can exert it influence on the outcome of RusNats by bending PCS and GOEs so to favor the skaters it wants to send to Beijing, but what a silly, disingenuous game to play as opposed to simply saying, "We're going to weigh several factors, and not just the results of RusNats, is making our Olympic team decision.")

I don't think it's only going to be left to Nationals, but don't you see yourself that if the top skaters flopped and the others skated lights out then that itself is an important data point? Kamila is the only one that scored way higher than everyone else. It just makes RusFed's decision difficult since suddenly all skaters are unpredictable.

But all of Aliona, Anna, Sasha, (and even Kamila until the latest comps) have had their best total score EVER at RusNats. The one skater that has had some history of flopping RusNats in the past is Liza. 212 is the highest and she only scored more than 210 points once. She also never had a consistent season like this before either, I don't expect her to fail although the pressure on her is the highest of all.

 

[sclloyd]

There are some basic issues. Kamila does not get 4/5s average on 3Lz/3F and 2A....change them all to 3s and her score is 78 SP, -1.5 from the 37.5 PCS and change the Stsq from +5 to +4 average and it's 76. She has slightly overscored GOE sure, but you're overscoring her GOE like never actually done in practice and getting mad. Your calculations are just a mess.

I gave her step sequence as close as the calculators would allow to her actual received GOE and her GOE on the jumps the average of what an additional rotation for the jump receives. I literally just copied and pasted from the right panel. Even then— 78 for a SP without a 3-3.

What is a mess is the ISU scoring parameters and how they are used to boost and deflate skaters based on reputation and not actual skill.

 

[DougDorsey]

I don't think it's only going to be left to Nationals, but don't you see yourself that if the top skaters flopped and the others skated lights out then that itself is an important data point?

I didn't say it isn't an important data point. I said it isn't - or shouldn't be - the only important data point.

Kami, Anya, or Liza having a single bad outing at RusNats should not suddenly negate the impressive consistency all three have otherwise mostly shown this season and last. And it certainly wouldn't suddenly make them equal in inconsistency to Maiia, Sasha, and Aliona, who each in their own way have a whole track record of unpredictability over this same period.

 

[sclloyd]

I didn't say it isn't an important data point. I said it isn't - or shouldn't be - the only important data point.

Kami, Anya, or Liza having a single bad outing at RusNats should not suddenly negate the impressive consistency all three have otherwise mostly shown this season and last. And it certainly wouldn't suddenly make them equal in inconsistency to Maiia, Sasha, and Aliona, who each in their own way have a whole track record of unpredictability over this same period.

I mean, yes and no. If someone performs really well in inconsequential events and then can’t when titles are on the line, is it all that important that they won the lesser competitions? Maia and Aliona’s technical elements aren’t really any more inconsistent than Anna’s, at least this season. The difference is that Anna is very reliable under pressure. Aliona has had the worst possible luck with injury and illness always putting her out of Worlds but she’s also proven to be reliable at title competitions, and hasn’t had major meltdowns like Sasha for example.

For Anna though, that’s a reputation she has earned because of her mettle at BIG competitions, not two Grand Prix stages. So it is also important to consider how long someone has been competing for not only big but also contentious titles. Maia has almost no experience so if she does well here after slow improvement and a few falterings at other events historically that would probably mean more to the Fed than Aliona doing well, since she does have that experience. At least more in terms of how to rank skaters based on predictability. If Aliona beats Liza and scores roughly even with Sasha, so say it’s Kamila and Anna at the top and then Sasha and then Aliona, but only by one or two points, and Aliona has a base value and score cap that could beat all non-Russians at the Olympics, do you think they would send Sasha to get four quadsters and risk a Euros type meltdown that could cost them a podium OR do they send Aliona?

If Kamila caves under pressure and ends up fourth and the podium has skaters who could not be beaten at the Olympics, while Kamila failing could be, and they are all historically reliable (Liza, Anna, Aliona, for example) would you send them instead of Kamila?

It’s not simply that Russian Nationals should be a one off. For Maia and Kamila this is really the first competition they’ll get tested in ever. Last year Senior nationals didn’t mean anything for senior eligibility because they weren’t seniors. No pressure of making Euros or Worlds. And they don’t get to let out their stage fright and nerves at GPF anymore. In that manner it’s a very important data point for them because they have so few other data points. On the other hand it might mean less for Liza because if she always bombs nationals but then performs well at worlds, for example, or has both this and last years consistency as a track record, then it could more like be attributed to a one off competition.

Speaking of consistency, it does peeve me a little bit how absolutely livid Eteri was at Maia when she missed the combo in her SP but how apparently little she cared when Anna did it. Between that and Kamila blowing off her attempts at interaction, she probably felt pretty alone out there. Every photo of her there she just looks so upset. I really feel sorry for the way TT and the Fed treats her. Especially with how much she’s shown she could give us when she’s confident.

 

[silveruskate]

I gave her step sequence as close as the calculators would allow to her actual received GOE and her GOE on the jumps the average of what an additional rotation for the jump receives. I literally just copied and pasted from the right panel. Even then— 78 for a SP without a 3-3.

What is a mess is the ISU scoring parameters and how they are used to boost and deflate skaters based on reputation and not actual skill.

Not at all against you being upset about scoring, but when you're reaching 80 and getting extra mad there's just no point in it. Just my opinion. All I did to go from 78 to 76 is make Stsq 4 from 5(she doesn't usually get 5 average) and PCS 37.5 with no 3-3 combo, no, I made it 36. Still high, but 3T compared to 2T is 3 points. Can Kamila's superior spins, steps and skating skills compared to the rest of the field make up those 3 points... definitely at least some of it, rest yeah overscored.

 

[silveruskate]

Speaking of consistency, it does peeve me a little bit how absolutely livid Eteri was at Maia when she missed the combo in her SP but how apparently little she cared when Anna did it. Between that and Kamila blowing off her attempts at interaction, she probably felt pretty alone out there. Every photo of her there she just looks so upset. I really feel sorry for the way TT and the Fed treats her. Especially with how much she’s shown she could give us when she’s confident.

To alleviate your concerns, Maiia and Kamila went go-karting together before the competition. They seem to be good friends! And nice stress-reliever for Maiia.

 

[sclloyd]

Not at all against you being upset about scoring, but when you're reaching 80 and getting extra mad there's just no point in it. Just my opinion. All I did to go from 78 to 76 is make Stsq 4 from 5(she doesn't usually get 5 average) and PCS 37.5 with no 3-3 combo, no, I made it 36. Still high, but 3T compared to 2T is 3 points. Can Kamila's superior spins, steps and skating skills compared to the rest of the field make up those 3 points... definitely at least some of it, rest yeah overscored.

Part of my point is that PCS shouldn’t be tied to technical elements— does landing a quad make someone suddenly better at connecting with the music and audience? Not really. Maybe you could make the argument for the transitions category because harder jumps can mean transitions are harder but the other four? No. Even with your scoring she’s still outranking Aliona with a 3A and a number of other podium scores this season.

And all of this still is just for the SP, not even the FS, which is much worse.

ISU will never make figure skating a truly popular sport until they correct this. How many people stating across platforms say they just aren’t watching because the result has already been determined ahead of time? It’s not only hurting Kamila’s reputation, it’s just bad PR for the sport in general.

 

[nussnacker]

I didn't say it isn't an important data point. I said it isn't - or shouldn't be - the only important data point.

Kami, Anya, or Liza having a single bad outing at RusNats should not suddenly negate the impressive consistency all three have otherwise mostly shown this season and last. And it certainly wouldn't suddenly make them equal in inconsistency to Maiia, Sasha, and Aliona, who each in their own way have a whole track record of unpredictability over this same period.

It isn’t the only data point. Hence why the „only the winner goes to worlds“ rule was made, specifically to leave Makar, who placed 2nd, off the team. None of other 2nd place finishers had to do Cup Final skate off, only him. Do you think they can’t come up with something like that, if some disaster happens and all Olympic contenders end up 9-10-11? When they didn’t want to take P/K just because of the Nationals last year, they made them skate again vs M/G and got M/G on the team.

Besides, if someone like Kamila or Anna, implodes massively and ends up 10th, this is a valuable piece of information, and it means they shouldn’t go to euros.

I think Rusfed will see how it goes and then act accordingly. No need to go out of your way to prevent some fantasy scenario, when the probability of it happening is so low.

But I’m surprised how you say some are „impressively consistent“ and others are „incredibly inconsistent“. Sure, Aliona and Maiia weren’t exactly stellar on their GPs, but they’re not „incredibly inconsistent“. I am more than sure they are still in contention for the third spot.

 

[alexocfp]

ISU will never make figure skating a truly popular sport until they correct this. How many people stating across platforms say they just aren’t watching because the result has already been determined ahead of time? It’s not only hurting Kamila’s reputation, it’s just bad PR for the sport in general.

How is having a once in a lifetime talent and potential best ever skater bad for the sport?

Sports is about the best winning and winning by as big a margin as they can.

There are countless dynasties in team and individual sports that were super popular and are still talked about today.

And what is the ISU supposed to do? Deduct points from Kamila so that the scores are closer? It’s not Kamila’s job to keep the score close. That falls on her opponents.

And I’m sorry, but people that stop watching the sport because Kamila has dominated aren’t really fans of the sport.

How can you not be a fan of a sport when the best skate of all time just occurred?

They are more likely fans of skaters from the past that can’t compare to Kamila or current skaters that Kamila is annihilating.

 

[sclloyd]

How is having a once in a lifetime talent and potential best ever skater bad for the sport?

Sports is about the best winning and winning by as big a margin as they can.

There are countless dynasties in team and individual sports that were super popular and are still talked about today.

And what is the ISU supposed to do? Deduct points from Kamila so that the scores are closer? It’s not Kamila’s job to keep the score close. That falls on her opponents.

And I’m sorry, but people that stop watching the sport because Kamila has dominated aren’t really fans of the sport.

How can you not be a fan of a sport when the best skate of all time just occurred?

They are more likely fans of skaters from the past that can’t compare to Kamila or current skaters that Kamila is annihilating.

Just because the judges state it is the best skate of all time that doesn’t mean the viewers think it is. That also doesn’t mean that the marks were deserved.

So many people can’t get past their bias of Kamila to see that all she is doing is exposing how corruptible the scoring system really is.

If you don’t believe there are scoring problems it is because you don’t want to admit the unfair nature of the scores. You can compare her elements directly side by side with others. Especially her jumps are overscored but it is not those elements alone. There is no impartiality with dealing with Kamila fans—- she is simply the GOAT without any major titles and deserves all her WRs while getting obvious bias from judges who score at the same competition better elements worse than hers because…???

Couldn’t imagine being a Japanese skater right now.

And she isn’t a once in a lifetime talent lol. RusFed intentionally excluded Sofia A. so that Kamila/Anna wouldn’t get beaten by a junior. And those quads aren’t once in a lifetime either. Sasha revolutionized the sport, wasn’t two years ago that people called her a once in a lifetime talent and now everyone discounts her even if she has cleanly executed much harder content than Kamila has.

 

[Scott512]

Alyona Kanysheva has completed her sports career, currently works as a coach in the figure skating league https://www.instagram.com/tv/CXLiGPaoSsV/?utm_medium=copy_link

Damn. Sad. She won the bronze medal at the junior world grand prix 3 years ago scoring way ahead of Anna who has gone on to greatness. You never know. Hopefully Alena has success as a coach. But I thought she was going to be a very special single skater then she got hurt.

 

[sclloyd]

Damn. Sad. She won the bronze medal at the junior world grand prix 3 years ago scoring way ahead of Anna who has gone on to greatness. You never know. Hopefully Alena has success as a coach. But I thought she was going to be a very special single skater then she got hurt.

She came up in my recommended watches on YouTube night before last and I didn’t know why since I’d not heard her name in so long so I rewatched her skate and felt sorry she had been injured. Her situation was so unfortunate, she had such beautiful posture, and the featheriest of arms. That pale blue dress made her look like a fairy.

 

[alexocfp]

Just because the judges state it is the best skate of all time that doesn’t mean the viewers think it is. That also doesn’t mean that the marks were deserved.

So many people can’t get past their bias of Kamila to see that all she is doing is exposing how corruptible the scoring system really is.

If you don’t believe there are scoring problems it is because you don’t want to admit the unfair nature of the scores. You can compare her elements directly side by side with others. Especially her jumps are overscored but it is not those elements alone. There is no impartiality with dealing with Kamila fans—- she is simply the GOAT without any major titles and deserves all her WRs while getting obvious bias from judges who score at the same competition better elements worse than hers because…???

Couldn’t imagine being a Japanese skater right now.

And she isn’t a once in a lifetime talent lol. RusFed intentionally excluded Sofia A. so that Kamila/Anna wouldn’t get beaten by a junior. And those quads aren’t once in a lifetime either. Sasha revolutionized the sport, wasn’t two years ago that people called her a once in a lifetime talent and now everyone discounts her even if she has cleanly executed much harder content than Kamila has.

Yeah, I can tell you aren’t a fan of Kamila’s. Haha

Actually, I think I will side with the judges rather than what the viewers think. The fan proclaiming something overscored or unfair doesn’t sway me one bit. The fans are more biased than the judges. Lot of sour milk from the fans, so their opinions don’t mean much.

That’s why the fans are fans and not judges. You don’t ask a fan to fix your car, you go to a trained mechanic.

Sasha might have revolutionized the sport, but up until now, she is a practice player that spends more time on the ice than on her skates.

And Sophia A will get her chance. But juniors and seniors are 2 different games. There are no guarantees when you step up in class.

 

[sclloyd]

Yeah, I can tell you aren’t a fan of Kamila’s. Haha

Actually, I think I will side with the judges rather than what the viewers think. The fan proclaiming something overscored or unfair doesn’t sway me one bit. The fans are more biased than the judges. Lot of sour milk from the fans, so their opinions don’t mean much.

That’s why the fans are fans and not judges. You don’t ask a fan to fix your car, you go to a trained mechanic.

Sasha might have revolutionized the sport, but up until now, she is a practice player that spends more time on the ice than on her skates.

And Sophia A will get her chance. But juniors and seniors are 2 different games. There are no guarantees when you step up in class.

If the car mechanic is telling me the flat tire is not actually a problem because the vehicle is Russian, surely I will turn to the fans who know that you need four pressurized wheels to drive.

How many years did Zhenya get away with her flutz? Something her own fans acknowledged was an issue. Were the fans wrong? Is a lutz take-off really from an inside edge? The judges are not infallible simply because they are scoring in your favor.

 

[alexocfp]

If the car mechanic is telling me the flat tire is not actually a problem because the vehicle is Russian, surely I will turn to the fans who know that you need four pressurized wheels to drive.

How many years did Zhenya get away with her flutz? Something her own fans acknowledged was an issue. Were the fans wrong? Is a lutz take-off really from an inside edge? The judges are not infallible simply because they are scoring in your favor.

My favor? Last time I checked I wasn’t the one skating. Haha

Even if it was scored lower, Kamila’s skate is still the best ever.

Nobody is perfect obviously, but the only scores I care about are the official ones.

The fans scores are just there to pass the time and for useless debates.

I never once complained about a score, even when my likes skaters was on the short end of the stick.

I like to focus on what can be done to increase the score rather than worry about judges.

That’s why Kamila wins big. Her fate is not left in the hands of the judges. She skated so well this year that the only question was by how much will she win.

And it’s not a flutz if you get away with it. Close calls go to the champions. In all sports.

And most of the time, it’s not even cut and dry, it’s just a fan showing a still or slowing the speed down to -30000 speed and alleging an infraction or favoritism or corruption or bribery. It’s the boy who cried wolf for me at this point.

Most of the time it’s just sour grapes.

 

[sclloyd]

My favor? Last time I checked I wasn’t the one skating. Haha

Even if it was scored lower, Kamila’s skate is still the best ever.

Nobody is perfect obviously, but the only scores I care about are the official ones.

The fans scores are just there to pass the time and for useless debates.

I never once complained about a score, even when my likes skaters was on the short end of the stick.

I like to focus on what can be done to increase the score rather than worry about judges.

That’s why Kamila wins big. Her fate is not left in the hands of the judges. She skated so well this year that the only question was by how much will she win.

And it’s not a flutz if you get away with it. Close calls go to the champions. In all sports.

“It’s not a flutz if you get away with it”

lmao k. on the records it’s not. but to everyone who knows anything of jumping it very visibility is. even live. it was never a close call. maybe with Anna and Daria it is. but for Zhenya? blind judges are the only ones who can’t see such an edge, so why did they appear to have eyes?

if your scoring is so arbitrary that you can selectively choose which rules to enforce it is not a legitimate scoring system.

and sure she could win. I admitted it to scott512 already. but that was never my point.

 

[Scott512]

She came up in my recommended watches on YouTube night before last and I didn’t know why since I’d not heard her name in so long so I rewatched her skate and felt sorry she had been injured. Her situation was so unfortunate, she had such beautiful posture, and the featheriest of arms. That pale blue dress made her look like a fairy.

So many good Russian girls retiire as teenagers and I guess she is about 17. It's super sad but I hope the injuries don't affect her everyday life. figure skating is truly a brutal sport and a beautiful sport.

I had some hopes for Alena in dance. But it wasn't to be.

 

[sclloyd]

So many good Russian girls retiire as teenagers and I guess she is about 17. It's super sad but I hope the injuries don't affect her everyday life. figure skating is truly a brutal sport and a beautiful sport.

I had some hopes for Alena in dance. But it wasn't to be.

Kamila’s very first coach gave an interview a while ago and said that often times the top girls are only there because their bodies are the ones that didn’t fail, not because the other girls didn’t have the drive or talent. A genetic lottery of sorts. True for almost all sports but an especially painful realization in artistic ones because it is not just about the body.