2021-22 Russian Women's Figure Skating

[Scott512]

Kamila’s very first coach gave an interview a while ago and said that often times the top girls are only there because their bodies are the ones that didn’t fail, not because the other girls didn’t have the drive or talent. A genetic lottery of sorts. True for almost all sports but an especially painful realization in artistic ones because it is not just about the body.

I agree. Alena could have been a great artist.

Your quip about the genetic lottery is accurate.

 

[Tokyo Drift]

Sasha revolutionized the sport, wasn’t two years ago that people called her a once in a lifetime talent and now everyone discounts her even if she has cleanly executed much harder content than Kamila has.

Sasha might have revolutionized the sport, but up until now, she is a practice player that spends more time on the ice than on her skates.

Once in a lifetime talent, and Forever

Time to bring an epic video that gives me chills every time, and to specify that not everyone discounts Sasha
Up until now I'm looking forward to the sequel(s) like mad ! Alexandra will fulfill it (and has already done so in tests).

Only a matter of time on the "space rocket reassembly", with her little touch of cruelty

 

[silveruskate]

Part of my point is that PCS shouldn’t be tied to technical elements— does landing a quad make someone suddenly better at connecting with the music and audience? Not really. Maybe you could make the argument for the transitions category because harder jumps can mean transitions are harder but the other four? No. Even with your scoring she’s still outranking Aliona with a 3A and a number of other podium scores this season.

And all of this still is just for the SP, not even the FS, which is much worse.

ISU will never make figure skating a truly popular sport until they correct this. How many people stating across platforms say they just aren’t watching because the result has already been determined ahead of time? It’s not only hurting Kamila’s reputation, it’s just bad PR for the sport in general.

It's a flaw no doubt. To me the tech is more like a barrier to higher PCS not that you will defo get it. Like Aliona will need to show 3As to get access to higher PCS.

Same way we see how Kolyada/Jason gets around 90 PCS but cannot access Yuzu/Nathan level without the extra tech.

 

[lurkerghost1]

I'm interested to see how much Eteri will be able to flex her political power at Rus Nats. Anything but 3 olympics spot for her would be a failure. Eteri probably has more power domestically than internationally. Maybe the domestic judges wont share the same sentiment for Elizaveta like they're doing at international level.
As much as I like the idea of Maia the underdog going to the olympics, I think she has no chance. They're not going to sent someone with the lowest pcs reputation and untested in a high pressure event.
I'm desperately hoping that a miracle has happened between Internationeux de France and Rus Nats where she will miraculously before 2019 Alena. Otherwise I dont see why the fed will send her over Elizaveta. They have already gone to feed Elizaveta the high pcs and goe they used to give Alena.
Anna could win silver with just 1 quad (barring a Alexandra comeback). She had a higher score with a mistake and 1 quad at GP italy than Elizaveta with 2 clean programs. That's how weird the scoring is. I think she will be able capable of delivering 2 nicely muscled and mangled quads at Rus Nats to secure her spot.
Kamila just has to show her passport id at the judges face to collect her scores.
Alexandra is a mystery. She can go from record breaking quad program to a disaster. I think if Alexandra delivers 5 quads it will be very different for the judges to not let her win over Kamila despite the fact it is highly feasible for the judges to still manouever the win for Kamila. On one hand it would look horrendous if their heavily backed number 1 skater lost domestically. But then on the other hand, it would contradict all their push on quads and allowing quads in the sp for girls if they are sending out the message that a 5 quad program is not champion worthy

Why should Alexandra with 5 quads beat Kamila with 2 3As and 3 quads? Alexandra’s base value advantage in this situation is very small because Kamila is not doing any 2As

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Just because the judges state it is the best skate of all time that doesn’t mean the viewers think it is. That also doesn’t mean that the marks were deserved.

So many people can’t get past their bias of Kamila to see that all she is doing is exposing how corruptible the scoring system really is.

Well. we as a viewers totally love the way how Brazilian playing soccer, but when Germany beat them 7:1, that was just the real result of the game. Now, you can bore us again and again how the system should work, but to use a word corruption is just telling us that you are not a very good interlocutor

 

[sclloyd]

It's a flaw no doubt. To me the tech is more like a barrier to higher PCS not that you will defo get it. Like Aliona will need to show 3As to get access to higher PCS.

Same way we see how Kolyada/Jason gets around 90 PCS but cannot access Yuzu/Nathan level without the extra tech.

Which is so dumb because Jason Brown is regarded by so many as the most artistic skater. His performances always leave me with much more than Chen’s do, except maybe his I Love You Woodkid program, even if I can appreciate the technical side of his scoring and agree that absolutely he deserves the scoring there just for raw athleticism.

Which is also what confused me about Sasha. Her quads have always been underscored imo.

 

[sclloyd]

Well. we as a viewers totally love the way how Brazilian playing soccer, but when Germany beat them 7:1, that was just the real result of the game. Now, you can bore us again and again how the system should work, but to use a word corruption is just telling us that you are not a very good interlocutor

And what if Brazil had scored 5 or 6 of those goals offside? Would it be corruption then?

You can’t compare an objective sport where play style isn’t incorporated into the score with one where there is a significant amount of subjective scoring.

 

[sclloyd]

Why should Alexandra with 5 quads beat Kamila with 2 3As and 3 quads? Alexandra’s base value advantage in this situation is very small because Kamila is not doing any 2As

Well that assumes Sasha doesn’t try for the 3A in the short, however unlikely that is now. A clean Sasha SHOULD score very high PCS for most of the components, so her only real weakness is the performance category and spins. But her spins have gotten much better, and the program is definitely good for her style and personality so generous judges might be inclined to reward her high just for something of that caliber being an insane crowd pleaser. It’s not like her SP is scoring 72-74 anymore either. She was able to make up the ten point deficit in the past with high PCS skaters and while you could get ten points for a 3A you can get 17 for a good quad, so assuming the judges are fair in rating her technique/landings and difficult exits she could easily make up the 3A deficit with two quads.

 

[lurkerghost1]

To be clear I am not the only one who thinks she is overscored. Read another site, twitter, or the YouTube comments sections of a number of videos of her side by side with other WR scores, or even just the Rostelecom Cup Winner announcement on another site.

Let's take the scoring calculator supplied above and insert my own set of jumps for her:

2A
3F
3Lz-2T

If we keep all of her other element scores exactly the same (or as close as the calculator will let us get) she would score OVER 80 POINTS. And yet the same people in this thread who talk about my scoring being harsh state no program without a 3A should get over 80?

Now let's go to the FS. If we want her to score about equal to Anna with all 3-3's and a quad she only needs:

3S
2A
3T-2Lo (changed from 2T downgrade because I don't understand zayaking rules, but I don't want to break them)
3Lo
3T-Eu-2S
3F-2T
3Lz

She doesn't need a single 3-3 combo. She doesn't need a single quad. There's a significant host of youtube commenters, commentators, twitter accounts, etc. stating they are specifically rooting AGAINST her because of these scoring issues. The ISU is LOSING viewers over this. In case you don't just hang out on Golden Skate, the judges are absolutely ruining her favorability.

What nonsense is this that you can score 254-- 8 points over the previous world record, 5 points over her score in Finlandia-- simply by taking away points for jumping content.

Could she do "just" doubles? No. But she could get away with 4 of them and not a single quad and her scores would still be competing for first place. That's ridiculous.

Skating Scores: Latest Figure Skating Results, Scores, Rankings & Statistics

The best resource for Figure Skating scores and stats on the web.

skatingscores.com

Skating Scores: Latest Figure Skating Results, Scores, Rankings & Statistics

The best resource for Figure Skating scores and stats on the web.

skatingscores.com

For fairness, let's do Aliona's WR SP/FS since they also set WRs:

https://skatingscores.com/re/1920/g...f4=0.80&p4=9.00&f5=0.80&p5=9.07&submit=Submit

Skating Scores: Latest Figure Skating Results, Scores, Rankings & Statistics

The best resource for Figure Skating scores and stats on the web.

skatingscores.com

With the same jumping layout as I gave Kamila above she gets 222.25 total. She could NOT win. And she could NOT break a world record.

Is Kamila's performance and execution really 32 points better than Aliona's? Is it really THAT much better than Anna at her best? The answer is of course no.

This is why I believe the scoring system is FUNDAMENTALLY broken. It's not any different than a 6.0 program system. If all you're doing is replacing the technical elements the remainder of the scores should remain unaffected because the remainder of the program is executed with the same cleanliness, precision, etc.

And yet someone will say "YOURE BEING UNFAIR CHANGING ONLY THE TECH SCORES BECAUSE HARDER PERFORMANCES GET BETTER PCS"

Then darling, what is the point of the technical score at all if it makes so little difference? ISU needs to seriously reevaluate their scoring system. Again. I'm an advocate as are a few others on here of reducing the PCS value to say .5 instead of .8. It would perhaps reduce subjectivity in scoring and end these stupid scoring wars.

lol. i dislike the current scoring system and its various abuses as much as anyone - see me complaining many times in this thread about Political Connections Score. That being said, your selective bias with the scores here is obvious and completely undermines your point with terrible math. As I will show below, the math shows that Kamila is no more overscored than Anna or Aliona.

Let's do the actual comparison of the short programs of Kamila, Anna, and Aliona with the 2A, solo triple, 3-2 combo scheme you've proposed. I will not be selectively changing GOEs as you have.

Kamila's 2021 Rostelecom Cup Score is 87.42. We will only change two elements:
1) 3A scored 10.74 points. Replace it with her highest-scoring SP 2A of all time from 2020 Junior Worlds (4.62).
2) 3Lz-3Tx scored 13.05 points. GOE is unchanged because it's based on 3Lz. So we replace a 3Tx (4.62 points) with a 2Tx (1.43 points)
87.42 - 10.74 - 4.62 + 4.62 +1.43 = 78.11

Now let's do Anna's 2021 Worlds short program (81.00).
In this case we will only change 3Lox (5.39) to 2Lox (1.87)
81.00 - 5.39 + 1.87 = 77.48
Note that this program had a step sequence level 3.

Aliona's 2019 Grand Prix Final short program (85.45)
1) We change 3A (score 10.97) with her highest-scoring SP 2A from 2021 Finlandia (4.84)
2) We change 3F+3Tx to 3F+2Tx. Again the GOE is unchanged so we only replaced 3Tx (4.62) with 2Tx (1.43)
85.45 - 10.97 + 4.84 - 4.62 + 1.43 = 76.13

Congratulations, all three of them have obscene scores for a 2A, solo triple, 3-2 layout and they're less than two points apart. Considering Kamila's spins and steps are WAY better than Anna's and a decent bit better than Aliona's (who is slower in both spins and steps sequence than Kamila without offering superior positions/edges) I would say that's pretty fair. An argument could be made Aliona was low in PCS as she had "only" 35.97 while the others had low 37 but hey, that's Olympic year for you.

Conclusion: your selective bias on Kamila is showing. I am so done with fans of Russian ladies bickering about who among them is more relatively overscored while ignoring the real underscoring occurring in women's skating (cough cough Wakaba Higuchi cough cough). But don't worry, the great thing about Russian ladies is the cycle will continue. We had Medvedeva's fans complain Zagitova's PCS was too high, then Zagitova's fans claim the 3A's scores were too high, now the 3A's fans claim Kamila's scores are too high. I'm sure two years from now Kamila's fans will make the same complaints about Sofia Akatieva, and so on. Thankfully with each generation, they get closer and closer to deserving these scores. Sotnikova was more overscored than Medvedeva who was more overscored than Zagitova who was more overscored than the 3A.

Which is so dumb because Jason Brown is regarded by so many as the most artistic skater. His performances always leave me with much more than Chen’s do, except maybe his I Love You Woodkid program, even if I can appreciate the technical side of his scoring and agree that absolutely he deserves the scoring there just for raw athleticism.

Which is also what confused me about Sasha. Her quads have always been underscored imo.

Not true at all. Her quad technique is flawed although not as flawed as Kamila's but more importantly Kamila goes into hers with more speed and Kamila has those aesthetic landings. Sasha's quads usually do not qualify for "great landing" because she checks out of them like Shoma Uno. There are a few occassions such as her 4Lz+3T at worlds where she has a fantastic landing and fully deserved +4/+5 but generally her jump landings do not compare favorably to say Usacheva or Sakamoto who have amazing landings on every jump.

Not that Kamila's jumps aren't overscored either. While I'm fully onboard with her 4T even with the prerotation (71 cm!! OMG) her 4S and 3A imo are not high enough to get great height yet get huge GOE. But Sasha's quads aren't amazing quality either most of the time. Her 4F is a 0 GOE jump even because of the edge.

 

[sclloyd]

Well, i think Germany scored one that way, so... The premise that a figure skating is a subjective sport, and soccer and all the others are not, is just not correct. And by defying things like that is an excuse for you as an individual to be subjective as you want. As we actually saw

Soccer is not a subjective sport. Players are not rated based on how good they look shooting the ball, they’re rated on whether it makes it in the net. The same is true for hockey and basketball. Track and field sports are not subjective sports. No one cares about the connection of a sprinter with their audience, they care about who crosses the line first.

Gymnastics and skating and synchronized swimming and trampoline are subjective sports. The judges are giving an opinion not just on whether an element was completed but how it was executed. Rhythmic gymnastics has a pretty fair system at this point— definitely there is not such a range in scoring where one judge thinks something is worth a point while others think it is worth -3. That’s an 85% difference in valuation which is quite extreme.

Besides, bad reffing calls— like perhaps an missed offsides call— there is nothing the ref can do to change the score. And I’m a tie game in soccer, the winner is not determined based on the prettiness of the goal.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Soccer is not a subjective sport. Players are not rated based on how good they look shooting the ball, they’re rated on whether it makes it in the net. The same is true for hockey and basketball. Track and field sports are not subjective sports. No one cares about the connection of a sprinter with their audience, they care about who crosses the line first.
judges in the panel
Gymnastics and skating and synchronized swimming and trampoline are subjective sports. The judges are giving an opinion not just on whether an element was completed but how it was executed. Rhythmic gymnastics has a pretty fair system at this point— definitely there is not such a range in scoring where one judge thinks something is worth a point while others think it is worth -3. That’s an 85% difference in valuation which is quite extreme.

Besides, bad reffing calls— like perhaps an missed offsides call— there is nothing the ref can do to change the score. And I’m a tie game in soccer, the winner is not determined based on the prettiness of the goal.

Judges are giving theirs opinion on the things defined by the recommendations, not by their own views. By having nine judges in the panel, and not using all the judge's mark in the final scores with devaluating the opposites, is making it quite an objective in the end. And judges are the one who give a final decision in every sport, we like it or not. Do you remember that in an 'objective sport' as you are calling them a player scored a goal with his hand and win a title for his nation?

 

[sclloyd]

Lol. I am the first one to com

lol. i dislike the current scoring system and its various abuses as much as anyone - see me complaining many times in this thread about Political Connections Score. That being said, your selective bias with the scores here is obvious and completely undermines your point with terrible math. As I will show below, the math shows that Kamila is no more overscored than Anna or Aliona.

Let's do the actual comparison of the short programs of Kamila, Anna, and Aliona with the 2A, solo triple, 3-2 combo scheme you've proposed. I will not be selectively changing GOEs as you have.

Kamila's 2021 Rostelecom Cup Score is 87.42. We will only change two elements:
1) 3A scored 10.74 points. Replace it with her highest-scoring SP 2A of all time from 2020 Junior Worlds (4.62).
2) 3Lz-3Tx scored 13.05 points. GOE is unchanged because it's based on 3Lz. So we replace a 3Tx (4.62 points) with a 2Tx (1.43 points)
87.42 - 10.74 - 4.62 + 4.62 +1.43 = 78.11

Now let's do Anna's 2021 Worlds short program (81.00).
In this case we will only change 3Lox (5.39) to 2Lox (1.87)
81.00 - 5.39 + 1.87 = 77.48
Note that this program had a step sequence level 3.

Aliona's 2019 Grand Prix Final short program (85.45)
1) We change 3A (score 10.97) with her highest-scoring SP 2A from 2021 Finlandia (4.84)
2) We change 3F+3Tx to 3F+2Tx. Again the GOE is unchanged so we only replaced 3Tx (4.62) with 2Tx (1.43)
85.45 - 10.97 + 4.84 - 4.62 + 1.43 = 76.13

Congratulations, all three of them have obscene scores for a 2A, solo triple, 3-2 layout and they're less than two points apart. Considering Kamila's spins and steps are WAY better than Anna's and a decent bit better than Aliona's (who is much slower in both spins and steps sequence than Kamila) I would say that's pretty fair. An argument could be made Aliona was low in PCS as she had "only" 35.97 while the others had low 37 but hey, that's Olympic year for you.

Conclusion: your selective bias on Kamila is showing. I am so done with fans of Russian ladies bickering about who among them is more relatively overscored while ignoring the real underscoring occurring in women's skating (cough cough Wakaba Higuchi cough cough). But don't worry, the great thing about Russian ladies is the cycle will continue. We had Medvedeva's fans complain Zagitova's PCS was too high, then Zagitova's fans claim the 3A's scores were too high, now the 3A's fans claim Kamila's scores are too high. I'm sure two years from now Kamila's fans will make the same complaints about Sofia Akatieva, and so on. Thankfully with each generation, they get closer and closer to deserving these scores. Sotnikova was more overscored than Medvedeva who was more overscored than Zagitova who was more overscored than the 3A.

Well I also did Aliona (and for Kamila I used a similar method— and we ended up with only a 2 point difference for the short) I excluded Anna’s scores because RusNats scores are always higher on average than what the skaters received from an international panel for the season.

But this should also be applied to the FS where the scores are much more enhanced. When I did this with Kamila vs Aliona with the exact same jump layout I found about a 30 point difference and that even with no quads and no 3-3s she would still break Aliona’s previous WR by five points.

So yes everyone is overscored. I even said beforehand that I don’t think anyone now is better than Sasha in 2019 but her scores this season are regularly being broken by far lesser skates so it’s not like I haven’t addressed it’s an issue across the board.

I pick on Kamila because with her it is SO blatant that people across platforms are pointing it out. And that makes it very easy to use her scores to highlight a very real issue in scoring that has been brushed under the rug for a LONG time.

I have also mentioned the Japanese girls today. I would hate to be them right now. But I felt less inclined to focus on them since this is the RLT and not something more general.

 

[silveruskate]

Кто лучше всех прыгает в 2021? Одиночницы

m.sports.ru

Valieva's 70cm+ 4T is unreal, the best in the business and even higher than all the men! For those curious about all the jumps, so happy Base Value blog came back.

 

[lurkerghost1]

Well that assumes Sasha doesn’t try for the 3A in the short, however unlikely that is now. A clean Sasha SHOULD score very high PCS for most of the components, so her only real weakness is the performance category and spins. But her spins have gotten much better, and the program is definitely good for her style and personality so generous judges might be inclined to reward her high just for something of that caliber being an insane crowd pleaser. It’s not like her SP is scoring 72-74 anymore either. She was able to make up the ten point deficit in the past with high PCS skaters and while you could get ten points for a 3A you can get 17 for a good quad, so assuming the judges are fair in rating her technique/landings and difficult exits she could easily make up the 3A deficit with two quads.

a clean Sasha is by no means a very high PCS skater. Off the top of my head she is worse than Kamila in skating skills and transitions even before we get to the other 3. I guess Frida is a more interesting program than In Memoriam so maybe Sasha gets composition. Not that the judges care about any of that though. Either way Sasha's spins, steps, and 3F are not as good as Kamila's so the only thing Sasha has better than Kamila is the -3T combo in the short.

In terms of base value, compare Sasha's 5 quad layout from Worlds with Kamila's 2 3A, 3 quad layout from Rostelecom. I'm assuming they all get level 4 and they land their intended jumps
Sasha total: 33.01 + 96.29 = 129.3
Kamila total: 37.71 + 86.07 = 123.78

So the question is not can Sasha make up a 3A deficit with two quads, the question is can Kamila make up a 5.52 deficit with GOE and PCS? Yes imo. For example Kamila's free program spins were worth 14.53 at Rostelecom vs. 12.53 for Sasha's free skate at worlds. Another two points for the short program and Sasha's lead is down to 1.52. Then jumps, steps, PCS, etc...

 

[lurkerghost1]

Well I also did Aliona (and for Kamila I used a similar method— and we ended up with only a 2 point difference for the short) I excluded Anna’s scores because RusNats scores are always higher on average than what the skaters received from an international panel for the season.

But this should also be applied to the FS where the scores are much more enhanced. When I did this with Kamila vs Aliona with the exact same jump layout I found about a 30 point difference and that even with no quads and no 3-3s she would still break Aliona’s previous WR by five points.

So yes everyone is overscored. I even said beforehand that I don’t think anyone now is better than Sasha in 2019 but her scores this season are regularly being broken by far lesser skates so it’s not like I haven’t addressed it’s an issue across the board.

I pick on Kamila because with her it is SO blatant that people across platforms are pointing it out. And that makes it very easy to use her scores to highlight a very real issue in scoring that has been brushed under the rug for a LONG time.

I have also mentioned the Japanese girls today. I would hate to be them right now. But I felt less inclined to focus on them since this is the RLT and not something more general.

Anna's scores were from worlds not russian nationals. Your "method" in the scoring sheets you linked involves giving Kamila higher GOE than she actually got in competition and then saying "why does she get such higher GOE than Anna or Alena, they would never get such scores" ... well that's why. With my method which is using actual scores for elements you see how similar the scores are.

You can't compare the free scores so easily because the GOEs get rescaled and it's impossible to get the factored GOE Kamila gets on quads with at 3T. And Kamila's free skate with 4 Ultra-C elements have more opportunities for high GOE than Alena's with only two. Alena getting +5 on a 3F gets less GOE than Kamila getting a +3 on 4S. I can go calculate the raw GOE they got on each jumping pass and apply it to their free skates to get an accurate number but sorry for not trusting your "method."

Sasha in 2019? You really think that's the standard? Sasha fell in every single competition of 2019 except Ondrej Nepela Trophy and Junior nationals. And Sasha today is overscored too even relative to other Russians just not as much as Kamila or Anna. Do you really think she deserved to lead Usacheva after the short program at Skate America given they both have one solo jump with wrong edge and Usacheva's superiority in every other element and skating skills/transitions/performance?

 

[sclloyd]

Sasha quads have very bad landings, it's not just the flow but the hunched back which even happens on triples for her nowadays, it's not aesthetically pleasing. I looked at her 5 quads from test skates and they give the look of being underrotated even when they're not (although one or two might have been q/UR). If she fixed that they would be beautiful, especially the 4Lz. Valieva's 70cm+ 4T is unreal, the best in the business and even higher than all the men. It's the real deal.

I sort of considered her landing a stylistic choice similar to Anna's really deep kneed 2A exit. I gave her the benefit of the doubt at SkAm because well... broken foot. Sasha just rotates SO fast and someone above said that her jumps are bad because she checks out like Shoma but we've seen her over rotate the 3A when she doesn't check out early. I mean, I personally never noticed that as a flaw, just the way I don't really count Aliona's delayed 3F rotation a flaw. To me she looks very in control of her rotation, somehow aware of it in air.

For me the test skate quads except no. 2 were actually very good. Something else that sticks out to me between her program and Bolero is that Bolero is just absolutely packed with crossovers, meanwhile you barely notice them in Sasha's program until right before the cantilever at the music change because there's just so few of them in the beginning of the program. Sasha COULD get more speed on all her quads if she incorporated a bunch of crossovers, but I prefer her transitions and find the program more full this way. You can see anyways how fast her 4Lz-3T entrance is when she does enter the way Kamila does so the speed is a compositional choice that I personally prefer. As she gets tired they then add in the crossovers so she can maintain the speed for the last quad, but for the most part she is not just doing weird "snake"movements with her arms to mask the crossovers.

You may not like her landing, but I don't like Kamila's technique. And those are just two bullet points for GOE. Sasha has better entrances in the beginning quads, and more difficult exits for the ones that aren't backloaded. And her 4Lz is just SO DANG GOOD.

If we want to talk about combos then I'm Trusova ALL THE WAY. She actually is the only one in TT with a proper Euler combo. Anna's Euler is sloppy, Aliona takes too long, and Kamila's is the worst of all of them- sloppy and very long time between jumps. Trusova maintains very good flow between the jumps, whereas Kamila's wobbly edge is so noticeable.

 

[lurkerghost1]

Кто лучше всех прыгает в 2021? Одиночницы

m.sports.ru

Valieva's 70cm+ 4T is unreal, the best in the business and even higher than all the men! For those curious about all the jumps, so happy Base Value blog came back.

yes i love this blog too, I remember they were the ones who analyzed average speed vs. number of crossovers per program which really demonstrated Tarakanova's superior skating skills a few years ago. She was such a talent. *sad Tarakanova noises*

Valieva's 4T is the best jump in women's since Midori 3A.

 

[silveruskate]

I sort of considered her landing a stylistic choice similar to Anna's really deep kneed 2A exit. I gave her the benefit of the doubt at SkAm because well... broken foot. Sasha just rotates SO fast and someone above said that her jumps are bad because she checks out like Shoma but we've seen her over rotate the 3A when she doesn't check out early. I mean, I personally never noticed that as a flaw, just the way I don't really count Aliona's delayed 3F rotation a flaw. To me she looks very in control of her rotation, somehow aware of it in air.

For me the test skate quads except no. 2 were actually very good. Something else that sticks out to me between her program and Bolero is that Bolero is just absolutely packed with crossovers, meanwhile you barely notice them in Sasha's program until right before the cantilever at the music change because there's just so few of them in the beginning of the program. Sasha COULD get more speed on all her quads if she incorporated a bunch of crossovers, but I prefer her transitions and find the program more full this way. You can see anyways how fast her 4T-3T entrance is when she does enter the way Kamila does so the speed is a compositional choice that I personally prefer. As she gets tired they then add in the crossovers so she can maintain the speed for the last quad, but for the most part she is not just doing weird "snake"movements with her arms to mask the crossovers.

You may not like her landing, but I don't like Kamila's technique. And those are just two bullet points for GOE. Sasha has better entrances in the beginning quads, and more difficult exits for the ones that aren't backloaded.

If we want to talk about combos then I'm Trusova ALL THE WAY. She actually is the only one in TT with a proper Euler combo. Anna's Euler is sloppy, Aliona takes too long, and Kamila's is the worst of all of them- sloppy and very long time between jumps. Trusova maintains very good flow between the jumps, whereas Kamila's wobbly edge is so noticeable.

I didn't even know that sent! I decided against getting into that and thought I posted something else but the OG post had sent and it was just edited.

Stylistic choice to have a hunched back hm. One thing I'll say is *this* is how I want Sasha's 4T-3T to be and quads in general:

https://psv4.userapi.com/c856228/u184764197/docs/d8/5d71c8701e7d/AT_4T_3T.gif

I'm shocked but Plushenko really made Sasha's jumps better than they ever were and she's regressed since then. Maybe he really is the technical genius.

 

[sclloyd]

a clean Sasha is by no means a very high PCS skater. Off the top of my head she is worse than Kamila in skating skills and transitions even before we get to the other 3. I guess Frida is a more interesting program than In Memoriam so maybe Sasha gets composition. Not that the judges care about any of that though. Either way Sasha's spins, steps, and 3F are not as good as Kamila's so the only thing Sasha has better than Kamila is the -3T combo in the short.

In terms of base value, compare Sasha's 5 quad layout from Worlds with Kamila's 2 3A, 3 quad layout from Rostelecom. I'm assuming they all get level 4 and they land their intended jumps
Sasha total: 33.01 + 96.29 = 129.3
Kamila total: 37.71 + 86.07 = 123.78

So the question is not can Sasha make up a 3A deficit with two quads, the question is can Kamila make up a 5.52 deficit with GOE and PCS? Yes imo. For example Kamila's free program spins were worth 14.53 at Rostelecom vs. 12.53 for Sasha's free skate at worlds. Another two points for the short program and Sasha's lead is down to 1.52. Then jumps, steps, PCS, etc...

I'm surprised you say that Sasha's 3F is not as good as Kamila's when the F/Lz are really Kamila's weakest jumps. Are you assuming Sasha gets an edge call? I'd also rate Trusova higher in transitions than Kamila, except maybe the exit that people said she "stole" from Zhenya. I think the Cruella program has a much better layout than Bolero, and is more interesting, so I'd also give her composition. I also disagree that Sasha has worse skating skills. If I watch their two programs side by side, Sasha can hold a deeper edge with more speed for much longer than Kamila can and it takes her three to four crossovers to get more speed than Kamila does on four or five. This is most notable in Kamila's choreo sequence -- four crossovers to spread eagle to another four crossovers to like feeling herself I guess, to another four crossovers into the 4T-Eu-3S (where she put both her feet down on in the Eu at Rostelecom btw) to another four crossovers to a mostly flat edged spiral to another four crossovers to the next combo jump (with the wobbly edge thing) and then again crossovers into the step sequence. Somehow Sasha has managed to make her twizzle better than Kamila's first twizzle set, where you can tell her blade gets "stuck". In Sasha's few spirals, she has enough momentum still to go into an element or another spiral without having to take an entire loop around the ice to get back her speed. I think this is most obvious for Kamila's back edges. Viewing the step sequences side by side I also note that Sasha has generally deeper edges. I would give interpretation and then performance to Kamila.

The primary problem for Sasha is that she was NOT a high PCS skater and while she has worked extraordinarily hard to correct that in the last year or two and judges have not been receptive to her very obvious improvements in those areas. I think she should be a high PCS skater, so the issue is then her spins. Her layback is still very weak and she could easily get a level downgraded there since she almost always barely scrapes by the 2 rotation min for the Biellmann position.

 

[sclloyd]

I didn't even know that sent! I decided against getting into that and thought I posted something else but the OG post had sent and it was just edited.

Stylistic choice to have a hunched back hm. One thing I'll say is *this* is how I want Sasha's 4T-3T to be:

https://psv4.userapi.com/c856228/u184764197/docs/d8/5d71c8701e7d/AT_4T_3T.gif

I'm shocked but Plushenko really made Sasha's jumps better than they ever were and she's regressed since then.

Well that jump combo really is exceptional. And I agree it's preferable. I can't help but wonder if she wasn't also hunching at test skates because of the stress fracture then? Her landing leg "collapses" so to speak so she softens the blow by bending her knee but then has to reduce the impact to prevent a fall by lower her CG altogether, hence the bent back. It's just she's not practiced to make that an artistic choice the way Anna does? I do think in some cases it's intentional. Definitely in Frida. But she does land pretty upright in her 3S at the end of the Euler combo, and that's really as low impact on the right foot as you can get since you aren't taking off from it.

That's part of the problem with the Eteri group method... much less individual attention to refine things like jump technique.