2021-22 Russian Women's Figure Skating

[silveruskate]

I think when evaluating GOE jumps you have to base it on the visual. It’s cool to see Kamila jumps so high but because she looks so tall on ice 57 cm 3A does not have the same look as Liza 52 cm who looks shorter or Aliona 3A in 2019 who was also shorter. Only my opinion though but I could certainly see those who argue it should be about absolute height

Rather than their heights I think it's Kamila's distance on the 3A which is absurdly long that makes the height of her jump look smaller. Kamila's 3A height is 10% more than Liza, but if Liza is 5' tall and Kamila 5'3 or max 5'5, the difference in their height is 5-8%. So relative to their heights Kamila's 3A is higher too, but even I will agree from looking that Liza's "looks" higher. My initial instinct is Kamila gets distance but not height too. Although, looking at the numbers it feels almost cheating to not allow her the height bullet. I have no clue what the right and fair way to judge would be.

As you said I feel like lots of the time judges do base it on visuals. And that shows that even if we get computer technical judging it's possible that jumps we think as humans aren't as high or far will get more GOE and everyone will be mad all over again!

 

[Dawn825]

If we look at the quads in the beginning of Bolero vs the quads at the beginning of Cruella we can see immediately that Bolero has more crossovers. This extends into the entire program.

I dont think this is true. A cursory count puts both Valieva and Trusova at around 45 crossovers in their FSs.

Speaking of crossovers, I wonder why Aliona (and Alysa) always do their 3As from hard entries, instead of just a back edge like everyone else. It might be easier for them. Theyre not rlly getting extra points for the entry if they always underrotate the back end.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Speaking of crossovers, I wonder why Aliona (and Alysa) always do their 3As from hard entries, instead of just a back edge like everyone else. It might be easier for them. Theyre not rlly getting extra points for the entry if they always underrotate the back end.

For both Alysa and Alena, that 3A entry predates them having issues rotating the jump, so at this point changing the entrance probably wouldn't help much because it's how they're accustomed to doing it.

 

[sclloyd]

I dont think this is true. A cursory count puts both Valieva and Trusova at around 45 crossovers in their FSs.

Speaking of crossovers, I wonder why Aliona (and Alysa) always do their 3As from hard entries, instead of just a back edge like everyone else. It might be easier for them. Theyre not rlly getting extra points for the entry if they always underrotate the back end.

Watching the programs and counting I get:

Sasha: 33
Kamila: 42

I think Aliona is sort of a Bradie type skater where she accustoms herself to patterns. The entrance is difficult but it is how she is used to it and she didn’t have the UR problem originally so I don’t think that the issue with rotation is necessarily due to the entrance. Especially because Aliona in particular has good enough skating skills unlike Alysa that she doesn’t really even lose speed on those edge changes.

 

[silveruskate]

Watching the programs and counting I get:

Sasha: 33
Kamila: 42

I think Aliona is sort of a Bradie type skater where she accustoms herself to patterns. The entrance is difficult but it is how she is used to it and she didn’t have the UR problem originally so I don’t think that the issue with rotation is necessarily due to the entrance. Especially because Aliona in particular has good enough skating skills unlike Alysa that she doesn’t really even lose speed on those edge changes.

It's difficult not to disrespect Alysa when saying this but the way she does the transition makes Aliona look better.

 

[lurkerghost1]

Rather than their heights I think it's Kamila's distance on the 3A which is absurdly long that makes the height of her jump look smaller. Kamila's 3A height is 10% more than Liza, but if Liza is 5' tall and Kamila 5'3 or max 5'5, the difference in their height is 5-8%. So relative to their heights Kamila's 3A is higher too, but even I will agree from looking that Liza's "looks" higher. My initial instinct is Kamila gets distance but not height too. Although, looking at the numbers it feels almost cheating to not allow her the height bullet. I have no clue what the right and fair way to judge would be.

As you said I feel like lots of the time judges do base it on visuals. And that shows that even if we get computer technical judging it's possible that jumps we think as humans aren't as high or far will get more GOE and everyone will be mad all over again!

Kamia is 5-8% taller maybe but because her legs are long she looks more than 5-8% taller on ice than Liza who has a more standard build for figure skater of shorter legs. That is another reason why Midori Ito's 3As were so impressive visually: the jump itself was objectively huge and Midori was very short herself but also she had short legs even for her height.

I'm not sure I agree about the distance making it look shorter. If anything I would say maybe the opposite even, people tend to overestimate the height on Sakamoto's jumps because she has huge distance. She has big jumps but as the Base Value blog shows they're not in the top tier of height, although I would still give her +4/+5.

 

[silveruskate]

Kamia is 5-8% taller maybe but because her legs are long she looks more than 5-8% taller on ice than Liza who has a more standard build for figure skater of shorter legs. That is another reason why Midori Ito's 3As were so impressive visually: the jump itself was objectively huge and Midori was very short herself but also she had short legs even for her height.

I'm not sure I agree about the distance making it look shorter. If anything I would say maybe the opposite even, people tend to overestimate the height on Sakamoto's jumps because she has huge distance. She has big jumps but as the Base Value blog shows they're not in the top tier of height, although I would still give her +4/+5.

I agree about short legs since Aliona has shorter legs too and her jumps look very explosive. With Sakamoto I think the distance makes them look more impressive, but I don't know about anyone saying specifically look how high her jumps are. It's technically not wrong to say her jump is huge, in a different way.

The reason I said distance is because of the "arc" or "hump" of the jump. Two hills can be the same height, but the steeper ascent of one would make it look taller?

But in the end we really can't let Valieva be penalised for something like having longer legs! We don't see the judges view but seems like they're liking that 3A so far.

 

[Magill]

Rather than their heights I think it's Kamila's distance on the 3A which is absurdly long that makes the height of her jump look smaller. Kamila's 3A height is 10% more than Liza, but if Liza is 5' tall and Kamila 5'3 or max 5'5, the difference in their height is 5-8%. So relative to their heights Kamila's 3A is higher too, but even I will agree from looking that Liza's "looks" higher. My initial instinct is Kamila gets distance but not height too. Although, looking at the numbers it feels almost cheating to not allow her the height bullet. I have no clue what the right and fair way to judge would be.

As you said I feel like lots of the time judges do base it on visuals. And that shows that even if we get computer technical judging it's possible that jumps we think as humans aren't as high or far will get more GOE and everyone will be mad all over again!

Whatever happens, everyone will be mad all over again - that is the one thing we can be sure of !

 

[bubblecherry]

in my opinion Usacheva is quite ahead of Sasha in skating skills too. I'd even say that Usacheva is the most rounded in PCS right now of the Russian ladies on paper given Alyona's regression. I think the only thing Usacheva lacks is star power and versatility to hold the audience in the palm of her hand but really her basic skating quality and transitional content is phenomenal along with her performance skills.

Daria’a skating skills/PCS are severely underrated, or at least severely overlooked.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CQRe80sBLz3/?utm_medium=copy_link

Take a look at this video. Notice the ice coverage here. One second she’s at one part of the rink, she does some one foot work on deep edges, and suddenly she’s at a different part of the rink. Notice how deep she gets into her edges, and notice her carriage. Arms are super controlled and graceful. She’s not twisting herself into the turns with her upper body at all. Her core is in tact, she uses her knees to really get into the ice and display deep edges and control the speed.

I also think she has the best transitional content (both very difficult, and extremely well executed.)

The interpretation is good. She uses her whole body and moves to the music well. Performance could use a bit of improvement. A bit more outwards projection is needed but she’s improved on that in the past 2 years i’ve been following her. CO is difficult. I have typically not liked her programs and I think she deserves better. However, her programs are jam packed with content that she executes really well, so she should still score well there.

In my eyes, Daria has been the best PCS skater from TeamTut the past two seasons, even if that’s not entirely how the scores represent it. I miss her

 

[Shayuki]

Daria’a skating skills/PCS are severely underrated, or at least severely overlooked.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CQRe80sBLz3/?utm_medium=copy_link

Take a look at this video. Notice the ice coverage here. One second she’s at one part of the rink, she does some one foot work on deep edges, and suddenly she’s at a different part of the rink. Notice how deep she gets into her edges, and notice her carriage. Arms are super controlled and graceful. She’s not twisting herself into the turns with her upper body at all. Her core is in tact, she uses her knees to really get into the ice and display deep edges and control the speed.

I also think she has the best transitional content (both very difficult, and extremely well executed.)

The interpretation is good. She uses her whole body and moves to the music well. Performance could use a bit of improvement. A bit more outwards projection is needed but she’s improved on that in the past 2 years i’ve been following her. CO is difficult. I have typically not liked her programs and I think she deserves better. However, her programs are jam packed with content that she executes really well, so she should still score well there.

In my eyes, Daria has been the best PCS skater from TeamTut the past two seasons, even if that’s not entirely how the scores represent it. I miss her

I'm not sure if Usacheva's skating skills are underrated - as far as I'm aware, they're considered good. They were her strength even before she was with Eteri, and they still are a strength, and she probably is the Eteri girl with the best skating skills.

However, on the PCS categories outside of skating skills and transitions, I have to disagree. And that's the reason why Usacheva doesn't get so high PCS in my opinion. I don't think that she has much innate musicality, and she is able to put very little genuine emotion to her performances. Even when she's performing it doesn't feel genuine and feels very shallow, and she also doesn't put very much effort into it. She also isn't a natural at all, which makes her performances forgettable and very difficult to get into, and always causes her to give off the impression that she's just half-heartedly executing without really giving it her all.

That's why I mostly disagree on her PCS, since I don't think just skating skills and transitions should be able to carry your PCS to such heigths - you need more than that. For her level and for being a first year senior, her PCS even is rather generous in my opinion.

 

[alexocfp]

And theoretically pigs can fly and you’re actually better than Messi, but you seem to have a habit of missing my point so idc.

Whatever your point was, isn’t it better to deal in reality rather than theoreticals?

And I’m better than Messi in a lot of things. Not football though. Haha

 

[alexocfp]

You might not remember that competition when Aliona was bullied by her.. I lost all respect for Liza that day.

Luckily, most everyone seems to have forgotten seeing the rapturous applause she got at Rostelecom and this years Finlandia Trophy. The people’s champion.

I remember Aliona trying to be a part of a conversation and Liza stood right in front of her to block her. But I never held it against Liza since like you said they're over it and emotions can run high. Liza was upset about some of the calls she received and GOE that event. No doubt she probably reflected on that momentary lapse of judgment afterwards and there was some backlash from fans on social media too. The next time they met Liza was very kind.

I see. So how about we let Aliona ignore Liza on a podium in 2021 and even it out? Haha

Skaters are competitors and not friends. I am OK with that.

But, I do want to practice what I preach so congratulations to Aliona for beating Liza fair and square at the 2019 Finalandia Cup. Haha

 

[sclloyd]

Whatever your point was, isn’t it better to deal in reality rather than theoreticals?

And I’m better than Messi in a lot of things. Not football though. Haha

You literally posted betting odds on THIS thread.

 

[alexocfp]

You literally posted betting odds on THIS thread.

Of course. Those are real odds that move based on where the money is going.

It‘s just a general guide as to what value the punters place on any given option. Betting odds carry a lot of weight because it is punters backing up their opinion with money.

And it quantifies things in an easier to grasp method than just “Kamila is Olympic favorite“ Having an 80% chance to win shows just how much of an overwhelming favorite she is. Or Anna having an 18% chance to win.

Numbers are just easier to digest.

Or a non Russian having a 2% chance or less to win shows that the market feels it’s a near impossible task.

Markets are tangible things.

 

[sclloyd]

Of course. Those are real odds that move based on where the money is going.

It‘s just a general guide as to what value the punters place on any given option. Betting odds carry a lot of weight because it is punters backing up their opinion with money.

And it quantifies things in an easier to grasp method than just “Kamila is Olympic favorite“ Having an 80% chance to win shows just how much of an overwhelming favorite she is. Or Anna having an 18% chance to win.

Numbers are just easier to digest.

Or a non Russian having a 2% chance or less to win shows that the market feels it’s a near impossible task.

Markets are tangible things.

again. whoosh.

 

[sclloyd]

at risk of giving undeserved attention to the worst gossipers in all the land, TSL did put together a pretty decent compilation of ultra-c jumps this season. really shows how the technique of each girl varies when you can see it side by side.

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[Jontor]

Season's Best List update - after 21 out of 26 competitions (28 if GPF and JGPF are still on)

1. Kamila Valieva - Rus - 272.71 GP Rostelecom Cup (new World record!!)
2. Anna Shcherbakova - Rus - 236.78 GP Gran Premio d'Italia
3. Elizaveta Tuktamysheva - Rus - 233.30 CS Finlandia Trophy
4. Sofia Akateva (J) - Rus - 233.08 JGP Krasnoyarsk (Junior World record)
5. Alexandra Trusova - Rus - 232.37 GP Skate America
6. Maiia Khromykh - Rus - 226.35 GP Gran Premio d'Italia
7, Kaori Sakamoto - Jpn - 223.34 GP NHK Trophy
8. Alëna Kostornaia - Rus - 221.85 GP Internationaux de France
9. Alysa Liu - USA - 219.24 CS Lombardia Trophy
10. Loena Hendrickx - Bel - 219.05 GP Gran Premio d'Italia
11. Daria Usacheva - Rus - 217.31 GP Skate America
12. Young You - Kor - 216.97 GP Skate America
13. Veronika Zhilina (J) - Rus - 216.92 JGP Kosice
14. Mai Mihara - Jpn - 214.95 GP Gran Premio d'Italia
15. Sofia Muravieva - Rus - 211.81 JGP Linz
16. Adelia Petrosian - Rus - 210.57 JGP Ljubljana
17. Mariah Bell - USA - 210.35 GP Rostelecom Cup
18. Satoko Miyahara - Jpn - 209.57 GP Gran Premio d'Italia
19. Isabeau Levito - USA - 208.31 JGP Linz
20. Anastasia Zinina - Rus - 206.20 JGP Krasnoyarsk
21. Kseniia Sinitsyna - Rus - 205.76 GP Skate America
22. Sofia Samodelkina - Rus - 205.67 JGP Ljubljana
23. Mana Kawabe - Jpn - 205.44 - GP NHK Trophy
24. Wakaba Higuchi - Jpn - 205.27 GP Skate Canada
-----------------------------------------------------------------
25. Anastasiia Gubanova - Geo - 203.91 CS Finlandia Trophy
26. Karen Chen - USA - 202.49 CS Finlandia Trophy
27. Eva-Lotta Kiibus - Est - 202.04 CS Finlandia Trophy
28. Amber Glenn - USA - 201.02 GP Skate America
30. Elizaveta Kulikova (J) - Rus - 196.83 JGP Krasnoyarsk
31. Elizaveta Berestovskaya (J) - Rus - 196.07 JGP Krasnoyarsk
37. Maria Zakharova (J) - Rus - 190.33 JGP Kosice
49. Sofia Samodurova - Rus - 180.59 GP Gran Premio d'Italia

Top 24 are guaranteed a spot at next year's senior GPs, except for (J).
I only see Gubanova and Chen, and maybe Kihira if she gets healthy, as potentials to get back into that Top 24.
There are 12 eligible Russians now in the Top 24. There are only room for 9 at the GPs.

Only the Championships left. Next up Europeans.

 

[flanker]

Ted confirmed he will be covering russian (and also canadian) nationals:

 

[Azikin]

Ted confirmed he will be covering russian nationals

Now my only problem is that SP is on Christmas eve..

 

[sclloyd]

Ted confirmed he will be covering russian (and also canadian) nationals:

Ted is so much better than Tara and Johnny… can’t help but think Johnny going and spending a week with TT for the Olympics wasn’t also some sort of bid to try and get commentating gigs the way Ted has, but let’s be real— before he was a Russian favorite he was a very well liked JGP commentator, and Johnny and Tara have always been annoying.

Though I hope he doesn’t grovel too much. I feel like he has a tendency to really be partial towards his favorites and that comes off poorly when commentating for seniors.