Did They Really Say That? Nagano Revisited.

[JaeJ]

Thanks to this site and my renewed interest in skating (also the fact I'm home sick), I've been spending a lot (okay, way too much) time on YouTube viewing current and classic skates.

In this clip from Kwan's 2003 Worlds FS, the commentators (Australian, I believe) talk about her loss in Nagano and pretty much say outright that Kwan "wuz robbed" of the gold medal. The comments are made around the six minute mark.

I was amazed to hear this! I've always thought Kwan's performance should have taken the gold, but I've heard so often that Lipinski had more fire and dash and technical difficulty (even though I hated those teeny little robotic jumps) that I've always just assumed I that I wasn't familiar enough with the intricacies of figure skating judging to understand the decision. I mean I understand the whole artistry vs. athleticism argument that was made at the time, even though I didn't entirely buy into it. Yet these commentators don't even act as if what they are saying is controversial; they say it as if it's something that's pretty much recognized in the skating world.

I don't mean to open a can of worms here, but has that call in Nagano since been recognized as controversial? Do informed people in the skating world accept it as a bad call now, or was it just those couple of commentators making idle chitchat?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTbJj7je5mM

 

[Tonichelle]

it's been controversial on fan boards... but I feel it could have gone either way... and after umpteen years it's really not the biggest scandel of the century/millenium/etc...

 

[zephyrskates]

that was eurosport right?

 

[hockeyfan228]

The commentators were from British Eurosport, Nicky Slater and Chris Howarth.

They did not say she wuzzrobbed: they said that after having skated to that high a standard and to have lost to Lipinski nonetheless was "cruel."

 

[attyfan]

it's been controversial on fan boards... but I feel it could have gone either way... and after umpteen years it's really not the biggest scandel of the century/millenium/etc...

On skating boards, there is tend to confuse "wuz robbed" with "reasonable minds can differ". '98 Oly ladies is definitely an event where reasonable minds may differ as to who should have won (I place it second only to '96 Worlds), but IMO, there is no way that any one "wuz robbed" in either event.

 

[JaeJ]

that was eurosport right?

I'm not sure -- I tried to figure out where the broadcast originated but couldn't tell by the clip.

tonichenille -- this is the only fan board I've been on, and only irregularly at that. I've never seen the topic discussed here or anywhere else, which is why I was so surprised to hear it spoken of so cavalierly on the clip.

The commentators were from British Eurosport, Nicky Slater and Chris Howarth.

They did not say she wuzzrobbed: they said that after having skated to that high a standard and to have lost to Lipinski nonetheless was "cruel."

Um, I think the implication was pretty clear, but that's just MHO.

 

[MissIzzy]

I don't think such a comment implied she was robbed at all; I think it merely says she was in an unfortunate situation.
As for who should have won, well, if you post any vids of either of them on YouTube from 1998, you might as well disable comments immediately and get it over with, because sooner or later the arguments will start and you'll end up disabling them anyway because you're sick of hearing about it.

 

[escaflowne9282]

I don't think such a comment implied she was robbed at all; I think it merely says she was in an unfortunate situation.
As for who should have won, well, if you post any vids of either of them on YouTube from 1998, you might as well disable comments immediately and get it over with, because sooner or later the arguments will start and you'll end up disabling them anyway because you're sick of hearing about it.

Ain't it the truth!

 

[discoduck]

It's not just Tara vs Michelle 98 either. I posted B & K's Riverdance from those games and the amount of comments I get on it is insane! I didn't realize you could disable You Tube comments at the time but since then I've done it.

 

[Tonichelle]

Ice Dance is probably the most controversial of 98, but it doesn't get as much attention (and re-posting) on general skating boards... *shrugs*

 

[floskate]

It's actually Chris Howarth and Simon Reed, not Nicky Slater. Nicky normally does Euro's while Simon is covering the Australian Open tennis.

And they really never said anything of the sort. They've always respected Michelle and been very complementary of her, but never wuzrobbed her.

 

[discoduck]

Ice Dance is probably the most controversial of 98, but it doesn't get as much attention (and re-posting) on general skating boards... *shrugs*

That's true but if you ever need to be entertained, check out my youtube account and read the comments on RIverdance. I have left a lot of them just because they amuse me.

 

[Tonichelle]

... I have left a lot of them just because they amuse me.

why does that not surprise me?

 

[JaeJ]

It's not just Tara vs Michelle 98 either. I posted B & K's Riverdance from those games and the amount of comments I get on it is insane! I didn't realize you could disable You Tube comments at the time but since then I've done it.

LOL. I didn't read any of the You Tube comments. I am sure they are pretty controversial

I just posted the video here because I thought the commentators' comments were interesting and was curious as to whether the skaters and more knowledgable posters on this board knew something about the decision that I didn't. I'm feeling as though I've committed a bit of a faux pau at this point, but it wasn't done out of malice or a desire to cause trouble.

I don't follow ice dancing, so I don't really know anything about Riverdance.

Anyway, I'm now understanding that this board is really not for people who aren't experts, so I'm off. Thanks to those who responded so courteously.

 

[Mathman]

Anyway, I'm now understanding that this board is really not for people who aren't experts...

Oh, goodness no! I have 10,000 posts on this board and I don't know a thing about about skating. It's just fun, to me.

About Michelle and Tara in the1998 Olympics, I don't think there was any suggestion of judging scandals, or anything like that, as there was at the 2002 Olympics. Both of the skaters gave super performances. Michelle fans -- they are legion, LOL -- naturally thought Michelle should have won. She did 7 triple jumps and a double Axel and skated beautifully throughout.

Tara fans thought that Tara's program was even more difficult technically because she did a triple loop / triple loop combination, plus she skated with verve and pizzazz.

When Internet fan sites came along, there were big fights about how wonderful my skater is and how awful your skater is. Sort of like Mao Asada fans versus Yuna Kim fans now, LOL.

The only thing that everyone agrees on is that it's a shame Tara's career was cut short by hip injuries. If the rivalry between her and Michelle could have continued it might have produced a whole series of great contests like Nagano.

 

[discoduck]

why does that not surprise me?

My favorites are the ones with the people who actually do Irish dance analyazing it. I'm like uh....they're wearing SKATES! Of course it doesn't look exactly like the real thing.

 

[Mathman]

I don't follow ice dancing, so I don't really know anything about Riverdance.

Ice dance is by far the most fun discipline to follow if you like controversies, wuzrobbing, and cheatin', lyin', conspirin' judges.

I guess the biggest reason for all the angst is that, well, when a singles' skater falls on her triple Lutz, even that skater's biggest fans can see that she messed up and didn't deserve to win that time.

But when the judges say that one dance teams' twizzles are more twizzly than the other guys', that's a little harder to quantify.

As Discoduck says above, Riverdance was a big risk by Bourne and Kraatz because -- come on, how are you going to translate Irish toe-dancing to the ice?

Anyway, the controversy was that Canadian fans (and Shae-Lynn and Victor themselves) went on a tirade about how they had been deliberately and systematically held down thoughout their careers and that the Russian-dominated powers-that-be in the sport had already pre-determined the winners before the contest began.

As evidence that Grishuk and Platov had been per-annointed, B&K mentioned all the times that season that this team had been gifted with first place finishes despite making really bad mistakes in every contest.

If you are a conspiracy theorist, then you can say that Bourne and Kraatz' complaints paid off in 2003. The ISU gave them the world championship just to shut them up.

The other point of view about the 1998 Olympics: Grishuk & Platov, Krylova & Ovsyannikov , and Anissina & Peiserat were just better.

 

[Tonichelle]

well they (the judges) knew 03 was B/K last season on the competitive circuit... they were gifted the gold

 

[feraina]

I guess the biggest reason for all the angst is that, well, when a singles' skater falls on her triple Lutz, even that skater's biggest fans can see that she messed up and didn't deserve to win that time.

Unless you're Yu-na Kim. Sorry, couldn't help myself there.

 

[discoduck]

well they (the judges) knew 03 was B/K last season on the competitive circuit... they were gifted the gold

And they had a really amazing free dance and skated their hearts out. It was not a gift.

Yes I know it was choreographed by Morozov but even he has the occasional moment of brilliance.