Cold war reassessment, or is my co-worker on crack?

[Ptichka]

I guess I just need a reality check. Was just talking to a co-worker, who said he did not understand what was wrong with the Cold War, and why exactly it would be so bad for the US if Russia went back to the bad old days. From his point of view, Cold War spurred innovation such as space exploration - a good thing. Also, having those two superpowers at a tension created world stability - another good thing. As to my point that Cold War led to such wonderful little entanglements as the mess in Afghanistan, he said that might have happened anyway, so it not a minus for the Cold War. And as to the millions of people living in a dictatorship - well, that's not US's problem at all. A few other people seemed to sort of agree with my coworker.

So, is my coworker on crack, or does he have a point?!

 

[merrywidow]

My guess is that your co-worker is young & didn't live during the cold war era. I remember the time (50's) when if you were overheard mentioning the word "communism" you could be reported & the FBI would haul you in for questioning & put you on their black list as a possible spy/traitor. A lot might have been propaganda but it frightened a lot of the population. Me included. You might suggest to your co=worker that he check out Eugene McCarthy & his role into black listing many well known people.

 

[Tonichelle]

Reagan was in charge of weeding out the commies in hollywood another interesting fact...

even after taking a bunch of history courses I still don't get all of what the US was trying to accomplish other than keeping communism away from our shores.... but honestly I don't think even the profs get it and basically use that period of history to push their own political agenda... I have yet to learn actual history :lol:

 

[Mathman]

I have heard the following argument made. The cold war, though harmful to the United States and a disaster for Russia, actually benefitted the rest of the world.

For one thing, it is better to have two playground bullies fighting each other than only one, who is always picking on the little guys (or worst of all, two bullies ganging up on the little guys).

Secondly, small countries could play one side off against the other. They could run to the U.S. and say, we'll go Communist unless you give us a billion dollars in foreign aid. Then they could go to the other side and try to get a better offer.

I suppose that has to be balanced against all the countries that suffererd the devastation of hot wars as surrogates (Viet Nam, for instance). The U.S. and Russia were afraid to attack each other, so they made up for it by fomenting wars in other (non-nuclear) countries.

 

[gio]

even after taking a bunch of history courses I still don't get all of what the US was trying to accomplish other than keeping communism away from our shores.... but honestly I don't think even the profs get it and basically use that period of history to push their own political agenda... I have yet to learn actual history :lol:

I'm interested too in the Cold War period. Very fascinating. But I'm far from having a good knowledge of it.
Every professor, every book push their own political agenda. The important thing IMO is to read books of authors with different opinions (pro USA, pro URSS, not pro USA nor pro URSS), then to compare with your opinions, compare with official documents (treaties, State department documents), other books...

Now the documents of KGB, Stasi and of other former East European secret services are available. Some CIA documents are available too. But there are a lot of hidden facts.

 

[gio]

The U.S. and Russia were afraid to attack each other, so they made up for it by fomenting wars in other (non-nuclear) countries.

They played their chess game on the World map, fomenting wars in the most obscure countries of the World. The rule was: not to go in war one against the other.

 

[PolymerBob]

You might suggest to your co=worker that he check out Eugene McCarthy & his role into black listing many well known people.

My guess is you don't mean Eugene McCarthy , but rather Joseph McCarthy .

 

[Ladskater]

The cold war? Good grief your coworker must want to set the world back a hundred years. It reminds me of that song:

"War - hmm, What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!!!"

We now have Pakistan threating to use nuclear weapons. I guess that will be our next "Cold War." Which ever country has the biggest weapons can hold the rest of the world hostage. No thanks!! I like to sleep at night - peacefully. Tell your friend to do some reading about the negative side of the Cold War.

 

[Ptichka]

even after taking a bunch of history courses I still don't get all of what the US was trying to accomplish other than keeping communism away from our shores.... but honestly I don't think even the profs get it and basically use that period of history to push their own political agenda... I have yet to learn actual history :lol:

"Actual history", I am afraid, will only be written in another hundred years or so. However, let me try to answer this point the best I can.

Personally, I think that keeping communism from America's shores was never high on the agenda. What was, of course, is keeping the sphere of Soviet Union's influence to a minimum. And, while I am far from glorifying the way America got into other countries' business, you would be hard pressed to see it as worse than when a country came under Soviet "influence". As one song said about Soviet "influence" - I gave a friend a helping hand, and I left it there.

There is a question as to whether or not Reagan's rather hostile stance vis-a-vis USSR benefited or harmed the situation. After all, while Britain followed the same general line as the US, most Europe was far more into appeasement. IMHO, both was needed. Had both Europe and US been hostile, it might have boosted Russian nationalism enough to keep USSR from falling apart. OTOH, if Britain and US both followed the same soft line as Europe did, it might have eased the economic pressure cooker that certainly contributed to the empire's collapse.

Finally, slightly off topic, let me bring up one example of "anti-USSR" American activity that I think is largely misunderstood by Americans. As I understand, most people here saw it as a big mistake when America boycotted the Moscow Olympics. When I discussed it with my mom, she told me that it was actually incredibly thought provoking for people like her within USSR. With minimal information from abroad (sure, there were things like "Voice of America", but they were also interfered with, not to mention that it was dangerous to listen to), there was little information on how the rest of the world saw Soviet actions. With tightly controlled media, it made it difficult to assess events. When America boycotted the Games, while the more naive citizens bought the bogus official line about it, thousands of people got the message that America was trying to send, and got it loud and clear. In that sense, American sacrifice contributed, however little, to further demoralization of the Soviet population, thus perhaps bringing about the collapse just that much sooner.

I suppose that has to be balanced against all the countries that suffererd the devastation of hot wars as surrogates (Viet Nam, for instance). The U.S. and Russia were afraid to attack each other, so they made up for it by fomenting wars in other (non-nuclear) countries.

It's more than that. I guess it's hard for me to fully differentiate cold war from USSR's treatment of the part of the world it more or less controlled (I am not even talking about life within the country's borders, including the not-so-willing Baltics). From that sense, I guess Budapest, Prague, and Warsaw might all have something to say on the issue.

They played their chess game on the World map, fomenting wars in the most obscure countries of the World. The rule was: not to go in war one against the other.

ITA. Of course, the rules did allow them to bolster their pawns, making them more powerful than the opposing side's queen might be.

You might suggest to your co=worker that he check out Eugene McCarthy & his role into black listing many well known people.

I've done a research paper on Joseph McCarthy and his tactics. Scary stuff. Of course, makes you wander how history will judge things like the Patriot Act...

Now the documents of KGB, Stasi and of other former East European secret services are available. Some CIA documents are available too. But there are a lot of hidden facts.

Of course a lot is hidden, and will remain so. I always find it a hoot that one of Putin's big achievements, the things he has really done for his motherland, was to burn the thousands of sheets of paperwork at the Soviet spy center in Berlin after the wall fell. Nice to know he didn't loose his head!

 

[gio]

So, is my coworker on crack, or does he have a point?!

IMO, the Cold War was very negative. Millions of people have died, a lot of wars exploded that had a disastrous impact on dozens of countries, people experienced catastrophic left-wing and right-wing dictatorships.

I have to thank the USA to bring stability and economic development to all Western Europe and if we in Italy live so well now and we are a rich and democratic country, it is all thanks to the USA, who helped us get rid of fascism.
But I cannot close my eyes to the bad things CIA did in the Third World. I hope the USA governments didn't always accept the bad things CIA did in the Third World. I have read some unclassified CIA documents and I was shocked. All those coup d'etats and bloody dictatorships helped by CIA that murdered and tortured thousands of people. I guess people in the Third World didn't count that much as European people.

Not to talk about all those arms selled secretly to Iran of Khomeini, which Iran used to arm the Hezbollah.

 

[gio]

Ptichka or any other, do you know some book about Communist European countries role in backing Palestinian terrorism?

 

[julietvalcouer]

Personally, I think that keeping communism from America's shores was never high on the agenda. What was, of course, is keeping the sphere of Soviet Union's influence to a minimum. And, while I am far from glorifying the way America got into other countries' business, you would be hard pressed to see it as worse than when a country came under Soviet "influence". As one song said about Soviet "influence" - I gave a friend a helping hand, and I left it there.

This sounds a great deal like what one of my dance instructors (who is in his thirties and born and raised in Hungary) said when we were talking about a movie that's come out there about the revolution against the Communists in the 1950s. As he put it, "Afterwards, the Russians sent in temporary 'advisors' and they stayed for forty years." Neither he nor any of the other people I know who actually grew up in the East Bloc have any warm fuzzy nostalgia feelings for the Soviet Union. I'm Polish by ethnicity (close enough I could get citizenship easily under their return laws) and I don't have any warm fuzzy feelings about the Russians, either, come to that.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

My guess is that your co-worker is young & didn't live during the cold war era. I remember the time (50's) when if you were overheard mentioning the word "communism" you could be reported & the FBI would haul you in for questioning & put you on their black list as a possible spy/traitor. A lot might have been propaganda but it frightened a lot of the population. Me included. You might suggest to your co=worker that he check out Eugene McCarthy & his role into black listing many well known people.

Given my penchant for being a card carrying liberal and joining a 3rd Party, my personal mail was halted for 5 months after having lunches with Russian colleagues even though we talked about art. Talk about the Land of the Free! It's only for those who keep quiet behind closed doors and are afraid to speak out.

BTW, in the beginning of the Hollywood Witch hunt, Reagan did not weed out the blacklist 7. He was President of the Screen Actors Guild and had to protect the ridiculous accusations against his constituents.

Communism was faltering in the 80s and with the Berlin Wall, Reagan jumped on the hero's bandwagon. He had nothing to do with any fall of communism. That was solely an internal matter.

Joe

 

[merrywidow]

Thanks for the correction...I did mean Joseph McCarthy not Eugene.

 

[Ptichka]

Communism was faltering in the 80s and with the Berlin Wall, Reagan jumped on the hero's bandwagon. He had nothing to do with any fall of communism. That was solely an internal matter.

Really? Do you think it just started "faltering" on its own? Cold War certainly helped bankrupt the USSR, not helping the government's case much. With the kind of policies Europe supported, Soviet Union would still be around, and Syria would still be in Lebanon.

But I cannot close my eyes to the bad things CIA did in the Third World. I hope the USA governments didn't always accept the bad things CIA did in the Third World. I have read some unclassified CIA documents and I was shocked. All those coup d'etats and bloody dictatorships helped by CIA that murdered and tortured thousands of people. I guess people in the Third World didn't count that much as European people.

Of course from the point of view of the US government people in Asia, Africa, and Latin America don't count nearly as much as the Europeans! That's one of the problems with wars - values and priorities tend to shift dramatically. Ends justifying the means, so to speak.

Not to talk about all those arms selled secretly to Iran of Khomeini, which Iran used to arm the Hezbollah.

Not just that. Much of the US help in Afghanistan, the one directed against the Soviet Union, ended up bolstering that which later became Taliban. Enemy of an enemy is not always my friend.

 

[sillylionlove]

YIKES...where do you work that you have that kind of discussion. LOL

Anyway, I dont' know much about the cold war since I grew up in the 70's and 80's but I do remember some things.

I can see why our coworker would say something like that given the state of the war in Iraq and Afganistan and Pakistan and who knows where else.

I had the opportunity this summer to go to the Reagan and Nixon presidential libraries. It was very interesting. Both have a piece of the Berlin wall and it make you think about how life must have been in Berlin and with communisim.

I recommend if you have the chance to go to Simi Valley or Yorba Linda in California to take the trip to the libraries. While you might not like these presidents you really learn alot about history and really see it from a different point of view.

FYI...I have been to 10 American presidents houses and/or libraries this past year....my hubby is a history dork. I will have to ask his opinion on this topic.

 

[Ptichka]

YIKES...where do you work that you have that kind of discussion. LOL

Somehow, wherever I work, conversations just tend to veer toward history and politics. Now, do you think it could have anything to do with me? :think:

 

[sillylionlove]

LOL Ptichka!!