What Is So Hard About The New Scoring System? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

What Is So Hard About The New Scoring System?

For instance, if Angela Nikodinev did her trademark layback spin under the new scoring system, she probably would get only level 1 difficulty. My question is how often do you see a beautifl layback spin like that? It must be very hard to achive the beautiful positions like Angela's, Sasha, Mirai's, Caroline and Sarah Hughes'. Why can't that position be level 4? If it's so easy to get that beautiful positions, why can't we see more often?

Well, a beautiful position would usually earn a plus in the grade of execution. Good speed, good centering, significantly more than the required number of revolutions would also add pluses.

I expect that Nikodinov's and S. Hughes's laybacks as performed ca. 1999-2002 would often have earned +1 and sometimes +2. They weren't as fast as Zhang's or Nagasu's or sometimes Cohen's (or, e.g., Nathalie Krieg's or Lucinda Ruh's), and didn't have as many as most of those (Cohen didn't often hold hers any longer in those days, but she competed under the new system she did).

They would have been level 1.

The new (this year) feature for holding a position for 8 revolutions would mean they would only have to do one more variation -- speeding up while in position would be an option -- to earn level 2.

Skaters like Zhang and Nagasu (and Krieg, back in the day) who could do all of that with good basic layback positions and *also* keep the spin going faster and longer through other difficult variations should get credit for being able to do even more than those who just had good positions basic with good centers.

Maybe it would be possible to define a good classic layback position -- the angles of the free leg and the degree of back arch -- so that it could count as a "difficult position" for one more feature. The trouble is that it would be difficult to define it objectively, but I would certainly support an effort to do so.

And I'd also like the GOEs to be worth more than the difference between one level and the next, so it would be more valuable to do a level 2 layback with +2 GOE than to do level 4 with 0 GOE.

Medusa said:
So the split jump in a step sequence is neither modest upper body movement not quick changes etc. And nobody is doing them anymore (not sure about Shawn Sawyer though). Isn't that weird that an element that was always part of skating was somehow "outlawed"?

It's definitely not outlawed -- it's not an illegal move at all, and it would be considered, and rewarded if well done, in the transitions component. If done immediately before a jump, it could also add to the GOE.

But you're right that it's not specifically recognized and explicitly rewarded and would just take up time without increasing the level of a step sequence, so a skater reading through the rules who doesn't already have a good split jump in his or her repertoire wouldn't see any reason to develop one.

What's happened with the rules as written is that some moves or variations that used to be rare are explicitly mentioned in the documentation, or have been inferred by skaters and by the technical specialists to count as features, and so have become much more common than they used to be.

Other moves/variations that may have been fairly common a few years ago explicitly do not count as features or have not consistently been credited as such, or they do count explicitly but they're more difficult to achieve successfully than other variations that earn the same reward, so they become less common or seem to disappear completely.

As the rules are tweaked each year, some things that were less common a few years ago under COP become more common, and vice versa.

I would recommend some major tweaks to explicitly reward even more types of moves and variations and to encourage more variation in long program structure -- I think that would benefit skaters by giving them more options to play to their own strengths in earning points, and it would benefit audiences by giving more variety of programs to watch.

Also, some moves fall in and out of fashion through the gradual development of the sport, quite apart from any rule changes. If a popular champion uses a given move to good effect, then pretty soon we'll see lots of other skaters at all levels including it as well. If the top skaters at the time don't happen to do it, or do it well, or if the ones who do the move don't seem to be rewarded for it compared to more obviously rewarded moves that could fill the same purposes in a program, it will fade out of use. This effect is true across all eras.
 
the new scoring system is TOO objective

the old scoring system was very subjective, and this was very good for the sport
 
I peronally don't find the CoP that confusing. I like it alot better than the 6.0 system. I'm a hard core fan and I spend quite alot of time anylizing rules and programs and such, but I could never make heads or tails of the 6.0 system. Where were the #'s comming from? How come a fall was worth I think it was an automatic .5 deduction and the skater could still score 5.8 tech and 6.0 presentation? It makes no sense. At least with the new system I know that a fall loses 4 points in its on an element and a triple gates more points than a double. I havn't seen a lack of creativity either. People are exaduating over the 3 of great programs in the past. Yes there were alot but the programs span 30-40 years, the CoP has only existed for 5 years. The majority of programs were never particualarly artistic, it is a sport after all. There are still skaters that come up with original choreo and still place high with the programs. The CoP isn't the reason for the decline, casual fans don't really care who wins, they just want to watch the skating and the lack of clean programs is due to pushing the technical envolpe again it is a sport the men have been falling alot since they started trying the quad and now the women are beacuse of trying 3-3s and the pairs trying more difficult tricks. Maybe the CoP sped up the rate at wich skaters started to try harded elements, by it was going to happen eventually, such is the nature of spot. Many of the top skaters of the 90's are leagendary and will go down in history as some of the best ever, maybe Mao and Yuna of the current bunch, but after having so many amazing competators and performers there has been a let down in terms of talent, yes the skaters are good, but they're, for the most part not unstopable and not in a leauge of their own like Kwan or Yaguden/Plushenko, Shen/Zhao.
 
I peronally don't find the CoP that confusing. I like it alot better than the 6.0 system. I'm a hard core fan and I spend quite alot of time anylizing rules and programs and such, but I could never make heads or tails of the 6.0 system. Where were the #'s comming from?
I think the question is (as Kyla said above), are we talking about serious figure skating fans who are willing to study the rules, or about the casual viewers that we would like to rope into watching skating if nothing else is on TV?

To serious students of the sport, the CoP it a joy to unravel. But the average viewer is not really interested in making the attempt. He will just change the channel and watch some stock cars go around in circles real fast. Car A went around faster than car B -- that I understand!

As far as understanding the 6.0 system, that's easy (to the casual observer). 5.4 is not so hot, 5.5 is a little better, 6.0 rocks the house. Yay!!

Where these numbers come from -- that's easy, too. They come from the opinions (presumably the expert opinions) of the judges.
 
I think the question is (as Kyla said above), are we talking about serious figure skating fans who are willing to study the rules, or about the casual viewers that we would like to rope into watching skating if nothing else is on TV?

To serious students of the sport, the CoP it a joy to unravel. But the average viewer is not really interested in making the attempt. He will just change the channel and watch some stock cars go around in circles real fast. Car A went around faster than car B -- that I understand!

As far as understanding the 6.0 system, that's easy (to the casual observer). 5.4 is not so hot, 5.5 is a little better, 6.0 rocks the house. Yay!!

Where these numbers come from -- that's easy, too. They come from the judgements of the judges.


MM - don't think I'm picking on you - but like the football analogy, I just have to disagree with the race care one here too. Is it really that hard to say: 80 versus 81, yay 81 wins??? or 75 is good, but 80 is better and Wowwww an 83 rocks the house. Except my apologies, but I just don't see these numbers as fundamentally different from the 6.0 system for the causal viewer (I really fail to see how tenths of a point make sense to anyone anytime but I digress) nor do I see how this is so different from your touch downs or race care examples (unless you just WANT it to be???? -- ok, or in fairness, I just don't want it to be....or simply don't see the difference).

I think both systems were differently intricate and raised different sets of issues to discuss for the more serious viewer, and then with that, there are just levels and levels of seriousness and kinds of discussion to be had. In terms of these current numbers being somehow particularly confusing - I really just don't buy it. But, I do agree completely with others who note that the commentators aren't helping clarify (at least the ones we typically here in the US). I think hockeyfan had some great points regarding how the commentators could commentate better on and FOR CoP. And in the end, that likely impacts a casual viewer more than anything else (in addition to that little hard to define thing that attracts people to watch a sport - I know that it would take A WHOLE HECK OF A LOT for me to get into race car driving) - the example with snowboarding was, imo, spot on - and I became a huge (if temporary) fan of snowborading with the Olympics - and the commentary was part of why I kept watching the events at that time - it SOUNDED excited, it wasn't simply that it LOOKED exciting.
 
I think it would be good to know what the base score is based upon planned elements. Then, if they scored above the base, you know that they did it well. If below base, then -goe's. That would help with the technical scores.

PCS is harder to explain to the audience since some of it is subjective and other components less so, but require a discerning eye.

I do think that COP has taken some of the creativity and aesthetic appeal away from skating. Also, the skaters are too busy counting seconds and revolutions to really wear their heart on their sleeves and let the emotion flow through.
 
MM - don't think I'm picking on you - but like the football analogy, I just have to disagree with the race care one here too. Is it really that hard to say: 80 versus 81, yay 81 wins??? or 75 is good, but 80 is better and Wowwww an 83 rocks the house. Except my apologies, but I just don't see these numbers as fundamentally different from the 6.0 system for the causal viewer (I really fail to see how tenths of a point make sense to anyone anytime but I digress) nor do I see how this is so different from your touch downs or race care examples (unless you just WANT it to be???? -- ok, or in fairness, I just don't want it to be....or simply don't see the difference).

I think both systems were differently intricate and raised different sets of issues to discuss for the more serious viewer, and then with that, there are just levels and levels of seriousness and kinds of discussion to be had. In terms of these current numbers being somehow particularly confusing - I really just don't buy it. But, I do agree completely with others who note that the commentators aren't helping clarify (at least the ones we typically here in the US). I think hockeyfan had some great points regarding how the commentators could commentate better on and FOR CoP. And in the end, that likely impacts a casual viewer more than anything else (in addition to that little hard to define thing that attracts people to watch a sport - I know that it would take A WHOLE HECK OF A LOT for me to get into race car driving) - the example with snowboarding was, imo, spot on - and I became a huge (if temporary) fan of snowborading with the Olympics - and the commentary was part of why I kept watching the events at that time - it SOUNDED excited, it wasn't simply that it LOOKED exciting.

With 6.0 it was easier to understand what the score meant. They weren't just random numbers, there was a built in frame of reference. 6.0 was the highest you could get. Therefore, 6.0 was really good. The impact from watching the scores was immediate and made the competition more exciting. It definitely made better tv. People knew when to cheer or boo. Watch the skater's faces in the K&C. Many of them don't get excited until they see where they've placed..

If you don't really understand COP, you don't have anyway of knowing what the numbers really mean. Casual viewers need a clear frame of reference and COP doesn't provide that. Sure an 80 is better than a 75. However, an 80 at one competition might be really good and at another it could suck. 80 doesn't mean anything until after "the moment" is long gone., The thrill of victory is a bit sapped by the delay.

Also, even knowledgeable fans sometimes don't understand what happened with the scoring until after they study the protocols. (Even then, the PCS can leave people going "HUH?" ) Most fans just have to take all that wonderful "objectivity" on faith and who has any faith in figure skating judges anymore?
 
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Also, as has been suggested on other threads by other posters, COP allows for performances that are not "clean" to a casual fan's eye to still score well (such as a slightly botched triple) AND for elements that look good to the casual eye (a jump that looks great but is UR, which would probably go right by a casual fan unless the commentator points it out) to possibly not score as well.

Remember, to whatever extent COP was a reaction to the SLC pairs scandal, the whole point was NOT to have made sure that S/P's cleaner skate would have obviously been the winner. It was to justify a result like putting the slightly-less-clean program of B/S first. The new system wasn't designed to have avoided the scandal of having to go back and award another set of medals; it was to give concrete, "overt" justification to a result like the original one (I put overt in quotation marks because there is now more anonymity to the judging, although the marks themselves are now much more parsed out and thus theoretically less subjective). [And please, I'm truly not trying to bring up the whole SLC thing again, I'm just talking about rationale for COP. B/S and S/P were wonderful skaters and both teams gave stunning performances.]

Another general problem with COP is that +GOEs for well-executed elements have not been given out as much. If they were, it might go a long ways toward giving credit for things like a beautiful position held well, etc. -- but I don't think that has panned out in practice. Rather, judges have gravitated to PCS to exert their "judgment" on a skater's placing.
 
Remember, to whatever extent COP was a reaction to the SLC pairs scandal, the whole point was NOT to have made sure that the cleaner skate would have obviously been the winner. It was to justify a result like putting the slightly-less-clean program first.

[Edited to make the comment general instead of specific.]

SLC was not the first time that a less clean program defeated a cleaner one.

Sometimes there was also politics involved, and often the less clean skate was just better overall despite the more obvious mistake(s).

And of course, sometimes there were honest differences of opinion over which of two (or more) comparable performances was better, and mixed ordinals that could have gone either way.

Commentators are not trained judges so they often missed the fine points of why one skater was better than another. When they did understand, they didn't always explain it to the public adequately. It's easier to talk to the general public about the kinds of things they can see for themselves (falls, stumbles, number of jump revolutions, pretty positions) than about the finer points of skating technique.

One thing the new system does is allow the skaters and the public (filtered through the commentators for those who only watch on TV) to see in which areas the panel as a whole thought each skater was better.

With anonymity also involved at the same time, what it doesn't allow is seeing which individual judges preferred which skaters overall or on each element and component.

Another general problem with COP is that +GOEs for well-executed elements have not been given out as much.

There were a lot of +2s given at the Grand Prix Final, and a larger smattering of +3s than we usually see. I'm wondering if it's a trend toward encouraging judges to be more generous with the +GOEs.

Rather, judges have gravitated to PCS to exert their "judgment" on a skater's placing.

There is still definitely room for the distinctions between components to be made more clearly.

But since it's hard to keep track of the math of 8 or 13 or 14 GOEs (plus the base marks, which the judges haven't memorized) and 5 usually factored components, it's more likely that the judges are doing their best, which is not always as good as we would like, at reflecting their judgment of how well each skater did in each program component area than on simply spitting out numbers designed to affect a predetermined placement.

Try scoring some competitions yourself and see what kind of thought processes you gravitate into.
 
Another general problem with COP is that +GOEs for well-executed elements have not been given out as much. If they were, it might go a long ways toward giving credit for things like a beautiful position held well, etc. -- but I don't think that has panned out in practice. Rather, judges have gravitated to PCS to exert their "judgment" on a skater's placing.

I've heard it suggest that judges have been conservative with the GOEs because the highest and lowest scores get thrown out, so to mark high or low makes you risk not getting counted. Though if at events like the GPF all the judges start embracing a wider range, this may be seen as less of a risk.
 
Try scoring some competitions yourself and see what kind of thought processes you gravitate into.
When I try it, the thought process I gravitate into is, oh, isn't that pretty, I'll give that a 7.75. Just like the second mark in ordinal judging.
MM - don't think I'm picking on you - but like the football analogy, I just have to disagree with the race car one here too. Is it really that hard to say: 80 versus 81, yay 81 wins??? or 75 is good, but 80 is better and Wowwww an 83 rocks the house. Except my apologies, but I just don't see these numbers as fundamentally different from the 6.0 system for the causal viewer...
That's a good question. I don't know why the emotional impact on the audience seems so much less.

I think SusanBeth articulated it well:
The impact from watching the scores was immediate and made the competition more exciting. It definitely made better tv. People knew when to cheer or boo...

Casual viewers need a clear frame of reference and COP doesn't provide that. Sure an 80 is better than a 75. However, an 80 at one competition might be really good and at another it could suck. 80 doesn't mean anything until after "the moment" is long gone., The thrill of victory is a bit sapped by the delay.
Speaking for myself, when I watch a competition on TV now and the scores come up, I don't leap from my seat in joy or rush to the computer to post how so-and-so was robbed :laugh:.

Instead I find myself just staring blankly at the screen for a minute or two and then saying to myself, well, in a couple of days the protocols will be up and I can figure out what happened.

OT -- If you want to see some great skating, go to the Japanese Nationals folder and check out the videos that are being posted! :rock:
 
I
If the majority of skaters don't like COP, it means that this judging system is a failure. Let's give more voice to skaters.

Herein lies the solution, in my humble opinion...

I (and a few others on this board) am involved in collegiate forensics, contests in public speaking and interpretation of literature. It is similar to skating in that it is competitive, judged, and combines technique and art.

The longer I am involved, the more I hear the same complaints from students about "the rules." Initially, I turned a deaf ear, thinking they just didn't know enough. But then, I had the epiphany that we deal with a new "generation" of students every four years, and they were NOT AROUND for the debates, reasonings, and changes that have been made. As a result, much of their dissatisfaction with results, judging, etc., comes from not having a voice. When we began to get them involved in rules discussions, event descriptions, judging paradigms, etc., both their mood and their level of performance increased.

Someone plan an international figure skating conference, and let the skaters run it. I don't know about you, but I'd sure love to hear their candid comments!

In short, there's no skating without skaters. No, they should not be given full control, but they SHOULD have a loud and constant voice in the machinations of the sport to which they (and usually their families) devote their lives and livelihood.
 
it is hard on the skaters because of all the tiny little rules that must be adhered to if the skaters are to get full credit for thier abilities. An exelent example sombody gave on another thread (sorry I forget who it was).

a skater plans out a level four spiral sequnece. a foward outside spiral, changing over to the inside egde, and pulls up into a belliman. Then a foward charlotte on the opposite leg in a curve. This a level 4. IF the positions are held for 3 second each. now let's say that the skater has fallen earlier and a tiny bit behind in the music. She only holds the belliman position for 2 seconds, but continues on to hold the charlotte for 3. The sequence is judged a level 1 becasue one position was not held for 3 seconds.

all the fiurinf out if it is worth more to fall on a quad or land a 3/3, or if a inide edge in a spin would get more points, but make you beind in the music is very tiring and difficult for skaters and thier coaches.
 
Sounds totally reasonable to me to give the skaters a voice as they are the ones most affected by the decisions being made. To hear what they have to say would be one way to know how effective the "rules" are and could point to where substantive and positive changes could be made.
 
a skater plans out a level four spiral sequnece. a foward outside spiral, changing over to the inside egde, and pulls up into a belliman. Then a foward charlotte on the opposite leg in a curve. This a level 4.

Actually, for that sequence to be level 4, it would need to be a backward Charlotte on the opposite leg in a curve. Or else the positions on the first leg would need to be backward.

One of the features it's aiming for is "3 spiral pos. with change of foot (mandatory for SP), forward & backward, inside & outside."

That's actually the easiest feature to achieve; it just requires planning the sequence correctly and being able to do some sort of spiral on most if not all edges.
 
cheaters

the new scoring system is TOO objective

the old scoring system was very subjective, and this was very good for the sport

But the judges cheated and got caught so no one but the die hard fan watches skating anymore. And the skaters didn't learn to skate they only learned jumps which caused alot of injuries. COP is a giant step in the right direction.
 
But the judges cheated and got caught so no one but the die hard fan watches skating anymore. And the skaters didn't learn to skate they only learned jumps which caused alot of injuries. COP is a giant step in the right direction.
CoP, from what I got, did away with much of the collusion that was going on in the 6.0 system. Some cultures thought that 'playing the game' was as much a part of scoring as legitimate scoring is. That still exists but to a much lesser degree. National bias in scoring will never disappear in CoP as well as it was a part of 6.0. Human Nature, I guess is more powerful than sportsmanship.

To protect the figureskating world, Cinquanta blocked the names of the judges at the 2003 Worlds which took away the heat of any continued accusations. He had gotten warning from the top man of the Olympics. He could not afford to let scandal happen again. Cinquanta did his job not for competitive skating but for the protection of his post and for the reputation of a sport.

For me, the 6.0 system is gone forever. Meaningful improvements in CoP must take place.

1. Allow all names of judges and the scores they assign to contestants be known through any phases of the competition. If the judges are secure in their decisions they should not worry what some people may say.

2. Let the Technical Panel be well versed on what they are calling. I believe there was a rush to set up CoP and this branch of the scoring was not well tested.

3. The Technical Panel's decisions should be made public simultaneously with their calls.

4. Let the public know what the Planned Program Components are in a Score Sheet provided with the price of admission as they do in other sports. Many fans in the Arena are quite cognizant of elements in figure skating being that many are present and former skaters and judges as well as family members and others who took the trouble to learn skating skills.

5. The media should allow a panel of judges to openly discuss their decisions when questioned.

Now .... Why should names of scoring judges be kept secret and the scores attributed to them?

Why should the technical Panel be silent about their decisions until after the protocols are released?

Why can not the Planned Program Components be distributed to the public?

Why can not a report on questionable decisions not be distributed in a timely fashion?

Maybe all this contributes to the decline of interest in figure skating

Joe
 
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