US Olympic Team Announced

[4everchan]

i am not sure why anyone is comparing scores over 2-3 competitions for Malinin : the sample is way too small to establish yet if he is a consistent skater or not... the kid is 17 years old ! I can easily imagine how competing for the first time in seniors may have triggered some nerves. If some want to compare scores over multiple competitions, do so with seasoned competitors like Chen, Zhou and Brown... I believe none of us has a crystal ball clear enough to evaluate what kind of skater Ilia will become. Would that provide an argument for or against Ilia's selection? I can see this going either way.

 

[Tavi...]

Yup, I totally agree that Zhou should have been 4th with proper tech calling. But given he did 5 quads to Browns zero quads, and all else considered, it's not the most egregious result for him to edge out Brown. Brown's PCS was also pretty sky high which kept him in top 3 contention, and some favourable tech/GOE calls for him too.

I know others disagree, but a quadless SP getting 49 PCS isn't right. Then again, Kamila's quad-filled FS getting 79 PCS wasn't right either.

Yes, nobody can do the Sinnerman SP other than Brown, but he has zero quads to two quads by Chen/Zhou/Malinin, so there is a stark difference in difficulty. I know people want to give Brown all the PCS and hold down his quadding rivals to make up for this deficiency but IMO a short program with 0 quads, no matter how intricate it is, is not on par with a program that has 2 quads (let alone quad lutzes). Chen literally did the same jump layout as Brown but added an extra rotation to the flip and the lutz.

If most skaters did 3Z+2T, 3F, 2A, and then one did 2Z+2T, 2F, 2A, there would be no question the latter would be buried not just technically but artistically as well for a performance that featured comparatively easier jumps.

You are generally a reasonable person, but I totally disagree with your point of view, and I’m gonna make the same kind of response here that I would make in court:

Below is a link to the criteria for PCS. There is nothing in it that ties program components to quads. Nothing. The ISU was perfectly capable of specifying that programs without quads are capped in PCS if that’s what they wanted to do, but they did not. If you think that a change should be made to PCS criteria you can certainly lobby for it, but right now that cap doesn’t exist. Quads are supposed to be rewarded through higher base values and proportionately higher GOE when they’re well executed. The fact that judges frequently throw high PCS and GOE like candy at quad jumpers may be reflective of their personal preferences, but it is not based on anything in the rules.

https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/sandp-handbooks-faq/26060-program-component-chart-2021/file

One more thing, and this is directed broadly, not just to you. I’ve been trying really hard not to respond to all the comments here and elsewhere repeatedly dissing Jason for not having mastered a quad and bemoaning the fact he was selected over Ilia.

If you read the article El Henry linked in one of her comments above, you’ll see it’s not for lack of trying that he hasn’t mastered quads.

Within a given sport, every athlete has different strengths and weaknesses. I have never heard anyone criticize a star wide receiver for not having the accurate arm of a star quarterback. It’s acknowledged that they both have contributions to make, and that they play the positions best suited to their strengths. It’s the same in music: some musicians excel in one area or one kind of repertoire but not another. They aren’t criticized for it; indeed, it’s widely accepted.

Yet in skating, Jason is criticized essentially because he’s not Nathan Chen. Everyone has likes and dislikes and it’s perfectly normal. But the inability to acknowledge differences and to value different talents is a huge problem as far as I’m concerned. Jason is not just a “beautiful” skater who’s second rate because he hasn’t mastered quads. He’s a superb athlete whose programs are incredibly technically challenging without quads. I’m not aware of any other skater currently competing who could perform his Sinnerman program. According to his choreographer, Rohene Ward, the program is so taxing that he breathes a sigh of relief every time he gets through it. Regardless of whether you like Jason’s kind of skating, he is not a second rate athlete. He’s just a different one.

 

[Mista Ekko]

It doesn’t even have to be a multiverse. I’m quite prepared to see a podium that we would expect. I’m also quite prepared to see a podium of Messing Bychenko Amoyz. Or for US team to be Ma Malinin and Pulkanin. Literally 1/3 of US pairs including the #1 pair had to WD from US Nationals due to Covid. Can you imagine if this happens at the Olympics? It would be awful.

A scenario that's really frightening is if there's a covid situation in a way that has a country
not be able to find a competitor or an alternate that can represent them in some discipline,
And they have to completely pull out of the event

 

[moonvine]

Yikes, that makes Jason losing to Ilya decisively sound even worse.

No it doesn’t. Ilya scored 222.55 at Cup of Austria.

 

[el henry]

These sort of assumptions are aggravating. Because as a matter of fact, I have watched Malinin before this weekend. The first time I saw him was at 2020 Junior Worlds, nearly two years ago. Second time was Skate America. It's why I'm aware of how much he's improved in such a short time. In fact, the only competition I haven't watched with him in it was Cup of Austria. If that's the competition with the scores written on a napkin, then I only caught the women's free skate. I can't be the only one so I don't know why you've made this assumption.

Because others, not you, have given no indication that they have seen any comp other than Nats, and one poster pretty much admitted it was only Nats.

It was not my intention, and I do not believe I said, that all persons advocating for Ilia had never seen him skate before.

 

[moonvine]

Ha Ha Polina?

A mistake I hope they never repeat.

 

[moonvine]

Because others, not you, have given no indication that they have seen any comp other than Nats, and one poster pretty much admitted it was only Nats.

It was not my intention, and I do not believe I said, that all persons advocating for Ilia had never seen him skate before.

One poster didn’t watch his skate for days after this whole can of worms was opened.

 

[moonvine]

Well, having the worlds minimum is not part of what is considered for Olympic selection. What is? "Domestic placement and scores at the 2021 and 2022 Toyota U.S. Figure Skating Championships will also be taken into consideration." You people refuse to belive that Nationals is used for anything else than for assigning skaters to tiers. The scores and the placements matter.

Not having the worlds minimum is not part of what is considered, but having a score that is in the top 10/15 in the world is. Jason consistently does this. Ilya does not.

 

[el henry]

whole post

Since this is the general "US Olympic Team" thread and you are interested in the US Team selections, I would be curious:

What do you think of the selection of Alexa Knierim and Brandon Frazier pursuant to the criteria?

What do you think of Ashley Cain-Gribble and Timothy LeDuc? Aren't their lines gorgeous? Isn't it marvelous that Timothy is the first publicly out non-binary skater chosen for a Winter Olympics team? I'm so proud of them.

What do you think of Alysa Liu being chosen? Should Isabeau Levito have been scored higher?

Thanks.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

These sort of assumptions are aggravating. Because as a matter of fact, I have watched Malinin before this weekend. The first time I saw him was at 2020 Junior Worlds, nearly two years ago. Second time was Skate America. It's why I'm aware of how much he's improved in such a short time. In fact, the only competition I haven't watched with him in it was Cup of Austria. If that's the competition with the scores written on a napkin, then I only caught the women's free skate. I can't be the only one so I don't know why you've made this assumption.

Agree. For statistical purposes, I saw him first at JGP 2019, and without looking it up I know that he skated to Let It Rain by Ed Sheeran in the short and Writing's on the Wall by Sam Smith in the long.
He stuck in the mind because of that 'Sons of Anarchy' vest, fantastic lutz and axel technique, awful spins and a toothy grin. His Instagram handle was still 'lutzb0i' at the time.

I think Olympics are overrated and sentimental, so I don't mind the prospect of either Jason or Ilia missing out, although obviously they mind. Just want to add (not directed at you) that given Raf's character it's expected that he would publically support his own skaters (Adam, Ilia). Better to save outrage for coaches who advocate their students on far shakier grounds, or even actually meddle with the selection process (looking at Russia...).

It's fun to just let the next four years pan out and see if Ilia will dominate. It isn't impossible to take an educated guess on the future career of new seniors (barring freak accidents). I range from being spot on with Nathan, Wakaba and most Crystal skaters, to fairly off the mark with Koreans. Optimistic about Ilia though.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Not having the worlds minimum is not part of what is considered, but having a score that is in the top 10/15 in the world is. Jason consistently does this. Ilya does not.

Jason does have the consistency. What is bothersome is that you and others claiming that, under the rules, there is no way Ilya could be picked over Jason, and then proceed to ignore the Nationals results and instead cite instances of Ilya underperforming internationally when it's already settled that Jason is ahead on the "consistency of scores" criterion. The other part is "competitiveness" and it is less clear that Jason leads there, and I'd argue that given the importance of Nationals, the placement and the scores in an event with all the top men contenders, and the margin of Ilya's lead over Jason, that Ilya would be more competitive internationally. But we can go back to discussing Ilya bombing a short program three months ago as a primary reason for excluding him from the team.

 

[Lzbee]

Oh sure continue beating that dead horse as if it's gonna make Brown any closer to accomplishing anything noteworthy besides wasting space. I'm pretty sure the PR savvy US team are already preparing him for the Team event so he can piggyback on others results so he could receive another underserved medal.

Ahem. My fellow skating fans. Can we refrain from calling skaters a "waste of space" regardless of whether you like their skating or not please? Thank you and good night.

 

[streams4dreams]

Rather than the one who doesn't even have World minimums because he bombed an SP at a low level senior comp so badly.

Got it.

No matter how much one prefers another skater, this is a poor way to talk about a budding 17 year old talent. Especially if one then also says this about the same person:

And I've said it before, I'll say it again. I have been cheering for and watching Ilia since he was 14.

This is not to say that there hasn't been name-calling all around, just that piling on Malinin has been more comprehensive hereabouts. This is especially grating because he is a less established skater, and one that many of these same posters say should stick around for years to come, which then comes off as incredibly insincere.

 

[el henry]

No matter how much one prefers another skater, this is a poor way to talk about a budding 17 year old talent. Especially if one then also says this about the same person:

This is not to say that there hasn't been name-calling all around, just that piling on Malinin has been more comprehensive hereabouts. This is especially grating because he is a less established skater, and one that many of these same posters say should stick around for years to come, which then comes off as incredibly insincere.

I apologize if it seemed like "piling on" to Ilia. I am not trying to be obnoxious. I can like Ilia and still say I believe Jason was the best choice for the Olympic Team.

I would definitely need to disagree if you are saying that there has been more harsh language directed to Ilia than to Jason, I think Jason has definitely born the brunt of that. But that is neither here nor there, and not important to any discussion of the selection.

 

[streams4dreams]

I apologize if it seemed like "piling on" to Ilia. I am not trying to be obnoxious. I can like Ilia and still say I believe Jason was the best choice for the Olympic Team.

Of course, I just wouldn't say that about a skater I liked.

I would definitely need to disagree if you are saying that there has been more harsh language directed to Ilia than to Jason, I think Jason has definitely born the brunt of that. But that is neither here nor there, and not important to any discussion of the selection.

We can agree to disagree on who bore the brunt, but agree that it's not relevant for the discussion of the selection.

 

[kan01]

Yikes, that makes Jason losing to Ilya decisively sound even worse.

No,it doesn't, and it's getting ridiculous.

 

[moonvine]

I think Olympics are overrated and sentimental

You and me both! There was some side eye at USFS over their selection of Karen Chen for Worlds but nothing like this, and this selection will be argued for 4, 8 years, maybe longer. And their selection of Karen Chen turned out to be very good.

Not to mention, I give it days… not even weeks, DAYS, before people start arguing about who should be on next Olympic team. Scratch that…people have started naming 2026 US Olympic women’s team team already. It’s crazy.

 

[el henry]

Jason does have the consistency. What is bothersome is that you and others claiming that, under the rules, there is no way Ilya could be picked over Jason, and then proceed to ignore the Nationals results and instead cite instances of Ilya underperforming internationally when it's already settled that Jason is ahead on the "consistency of scores" criterion. The other part is "competitiveness" and it is less clear that Jason leads there, and I'd argue that given the importance of Nationals, the placement and the scores in an event with all the top men contenders, and the margin of Ilya's lead over Jason, that Ilya would be more competitive internationally. But we can go back to discussing Ilya bombing a short program three months ago as a primary reason for excluding him from the team.

I don't think we are saying that is the only reason. We are saying that we are frustrated by the insistence that Nats is the most important indicator. Folks on either side of this argument are just going to have different views about the criteria it seems. I agree with Jackie Wong's analysis that the choice was obvious. You do not. Which leads to arguments about specific comps. And round and about we go.

Also, jumping off and not directed at you, I do get frustrated when I see terms directed to Jason like, perennial loser, waste of space, never competitive, washed up, held up by USFS (that in particular, is just, wow, Jason has never been a favorite of USFS) in addition to the discussion of the criteria.

From what I can see, those advocating for Jason's selection have not used such virulent terms about Ilia. We have pointed out his competitive record, but not insulted the skater. ( I certainly don't remember every post.) Speaking only for me, I would like to keep it that way for everyone. Hope springs eternal.

 

[sjchilly]

Phil Mickelson WON the PGA Championship this year, one of golf's most prestigious tournaments. He was NOT selected to represent the US at the President's Cup because his ranking was not high enough due to his finishes at other events.

 

[TontoK]

Since this is the general "US Olympic Team" thread and you are interested in the US Team selections, I would be curious:

What do you think of the selection of Alexa Knierim and Brandon Frazier pursuant to the criteria?

What do you think of Ashley Cain-Gribble and Timothy LeDuc? Aren't their lines gorgeous? Isn't it marvelous that Timothy is the first publicly out non-binary skater chosen for a Winter Olympics team? I'm so proud of them.

What do you think of Alysa Liu being chosen? Should Isabeau Levito have been scored higher?

Thanks.

Even with my inclinations for a trails-type event, I'm generally OK with naming K/F and Alysa to the team. It would seem excessively harsh to penalize them for catching COVID at the actual event. This should be viewed as an exception, not the rule. I'm not sure if my comfort level with these selections would be the same if a top rival had risen and shown exceptional performance and promise, and their selection could have upset the applecart. For example, if Jessica and Brian had skated a lights-out free program to reinforce the excellent short program and finished second... what would I support? The answer is, "I don't know."

Ashley and Tim were spectacular, by far the best I've ever seen from them. In fact the very best competitive SP + FP I've seen from an American pair in a decade or more. They are deserving winners. How they identify or with whom they sleep (or their ethnicity, the breed of dog they own, their off-ice hobbies, their favorite color, etc...) holds no interest for me - I'm equally disinterested in this stuff about all skaters. It's irrelevant to how I view skating. "Up Close and Personal"... no, thank you.

Isabeau was scored well and fairly. There is so much to like about this young skater, but the differential in speed and power was evident when compared to the older ladies. Time will take care of that.