US Olympic Team Announced

[Mathman]

At least the USFSA has been consistent over the years in not abandoning or denigrting the artistic side of men's figure skating. Before Jason Brown they did not hesitate to support the carreers of Adam Rippon, Jeremy Abbott and Todd Eldredge.

Tim Goebbel was the exception. He outquadded both Alexei Yagudin and Evgenny Plushenko at the 2002 Olympics, but could not match their second mark scores.

Even Brian Boitano -- though he had a fine triple Axel what we remember about his skating was his signature spread eagle. Scott Hamilton was so-so in jumps but was a great showman (plus he was good at figures). Dick Button did outjump his rivals in the 1950s, but as a commentator he was all about, "You call that a layback? Get that free leg up there where it belongs!" Canadian Patrick Chan is numbered among the all-time greats not becuase he eventually mastered the quad toeloop (after eventually mastering the triple Axel)I but because of his incomparable blad-to-ice skills. I guess the rational is, if skating is all about jumps, well, where does the skating come in? You don't need ice skates to jump higher, faster, stronger -- in fact, they just weigh you down.

Something for everyone and everything in due measure -- that's the charm of our delicious figuire skating smorgasbord.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

At least the USFSA has been consistent over the years in not abandoning or denigrting the artistic side of men's figure skating.

The approach should be different now. Under 6.0, someone who was a great artist a good technically was often untouchable. If you skated against, say, Michelle Kwan and she earned 5.9/5.9, you could do 5 quads and you still wouldn't beat her in a LP unless you matched that artistic score. Now, only the second mark is capped and you can surpass skaters with perfect PCS scores with more technical merit.

For whatever reason, I think it's more about the USFSA not willing to get behind younger skaters early in their careers than supporting skaters merely because they are artistic. Some of our top talents like Vincent and Alysa have fallen behind their peers internationally that they were on par with before, so I think more needs to be done to encourage and nurture young stand-outs.

 

[moonvine]

The approach should be different now. Under 6.0, someone who was a great artist a good technically was often untouchable. If you skated against, say, Michelle Kwan and she earned 5.9/5.9, you could do 5 quads and you still wouldn't beat her in a LP unless you matched that artistic score. Now, only the second mark is capped and you can surpass skaters with perfect PCS scores with more technical merit.

For whatever reason, I think it's more about the USFSA not willing to get behind younger skaters early in their careers than supporting skaters merely because they are artistic. Some of our top talents like Vincent and Alysa have fallen behind their peers internationally that they were on par with before, so I think more needs to be done to encourage and nurture young stand-outs.

I’m hoping the judging will be changed (again) or as some have suggested have two different programs. The short was created so skaters who were great at figures did not have too much of an advantage. Figures are no longer done, so the short program has no more purpose.

The technical/artistic program thing has been being knocked around for years now. Who knows if they will ever act on it.

I think Alysa had plenty of encouragement. She seems to have had quite a growth spurt. In what way do you believe USFS hasn’t encouraged or nurtured Vincent or Alysa?

 

[TontoK]

With brespect to history, I think that the ladies' selection in 2014 is the most telling. I am fuzzy on the details now, but some time before the 2010 Olympics there was a reorganization of the leadership of the USFSA, As I recall (?) they hired some business types and lawyers to augmernt their staff of largely volunteer skating enthusiasts. There was a new scrutiny of marketting the sport by winning as many Olympic medals as possible. One cautionary note came to light from the legal side, that you can't use the National Championships as the Olympic Qualifying Event because if you did the USOC would be officially in charge rather than the USFSA.

This was when various rules were adopted to guide the Selection Committee. No one paid any attention to these procedural changes and fans pretty much blew them off. One, two and three at Nationals would go to the Olympics except in extraordinary circumstances.

They were the three best; what's the problem?

But in 2014 there really was a choice to be made. The USFSA warned us and warned us that the old rule was out and new rules were in place, but we didn't believe it. However, that year the USFSA showed us who was boss. They chose Wagner (body of work, 4th at Nationals), Edmunds (ormising newcomer -- the future of the sport and 2nd at Nationals), and Gracie Gold -=- U.S. Championon and "now" girl to Ashley's "then" and Polina's "later." (By the way, the men's silver medalist, winner of the long program, was also selected for the team -- Jason Brown. All this was justified, quite correctly, by the official selection criteria. The reason there was a howl when Mirai was passed over is that we fans thought that all these rules were just busywork -- of course they would send 1,2, and 3 as they always did.

I get what you're saying here, and I want to respond in a general fashion... emotionally distanced from the current situation, so I ask everyone to disregard any temptation to tie this to Ilia or Jason.

There was a new scrutiny of marketting the sport by winning as many Olympic medals as possible

I'll accept your word for it - you're well-respected as an honest guy. So, my question is this: How's that working out? When has the committee decided not to go with National results and earned a medal for that decision? The only time I can recall is Nancy Kerrigan winning silver, and that - thankfully and prayerfully going forward - is a one-off situation - unlikely to be repeated. I think I recall someone mentioning a pair in the 90's winning a medal at Worlds - maybe Todd and Jenny... but that wasn't the Olympics.

And speaking of marketing, which is the most compelling story? Which is more likely to set the hook and bring new fans into the sport?

• Be sure to watch the National Championships! A high-stakes "winner take all" event that will determine our Olympic Team! The athletes better be at the top of their game, physically and mentally, because this is for all the marbles! Dreams will come true, and dreams will be shattered! Stick around for the medal ceremony and celebrate with our new Olympians!
• Be sure to watch the National Championships! After the event, we'll convene in a secret closed-door meeting to choose the Olympic Team, evaluating mulitple performances (that you probably haven't watched) using a variety of preselected criteria (that even hard-core fans may find difficult to follow or interpret) . Don't be concerned if what we say doesn't match what you saw - trust us! We know best, and we'll let you know sometime after the event has finished and you're off doing something else. You can read about it in the paper tomorrow.

You can't use the National Championships as the Olympic Qualifying Event because if you did the USOC would be officially in charge rather than the USFSA.

This makes sense. But there's no reason to call it anything other than the National Championship. While I'm generally not in favor of selecting teams who didn't earn it on the ice at Nationals... you could even include a caveat that a clear medal threat might be given special consideration. This should calm those concerned that a skater like Nathan might have a bad day and miss the podium... although I'd just say, "Too bad." But I also realize not everyone is as OK with that outcome as I would be.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

In what way do you believe USFS hasn’t encouraged or nurtured Vincent or Alysa?

For Vincent, he was another who had to "wait his turn," and ultimately that may not have had a big impact on how his career has unfolded but he's never been able to maintain a consistently high standard. I thought he may have turned a corner earlier this season, but then he was not very good at Nationals.

For Alysa, there have been a lot of changes (coaching situation, etc.) and I'm not sure what extent the USFSA encouraged or pushed back on those. I do think the USFSA put pressure on her as our one hope of beating the Russian women, and it doesn't seem like she relishes being in that position at all based on her social media statements.

Obviously there are many factors beyond what the USFSA can control, but we aren't seeing these young talents thrive and it's something I think is worth looking into.

 

[TontoK]

Obviously there are many factors beyond what the USFSA can control, but we aren't seeing these young talents thrive and it's something I think is worth looking into.

Nurturing young talent is essential. Not to throw rocks at our friends to the North, but when the well ran dry in Canada, it seems to have run Bone Dry, and this is a country where general public interest in the sport far outpaces what we see in America.

I like Keegan and Roman, don't get me wrong... but they aren't to be spoken in the same breath as Don Jackson, Toller, Brian, Kurt, or Patrick.

Edit: And speaking of the well running dry... what about our friends across the pond? Team GB had Olympic Champions in three straight Games beginning with Curry, Torville/Dean, and Cousins. And just about nothing to crow about since.

 

[Myr]

or Vincent, he was another who had to "wait his turn,"

Wait, didn't they send Vincent to the Olympics and Worlds when he was only seventeen? What more could they send him to?

 

[yume]

Pulkinen wasn't named to the Olympic team. If you are referring to Brown, he DID receive a medal, so....?

You are seriously valuing a chocolate medal...

 

[treblemakerem]

Change of subject but I am pretty worried about US team actually making it to Beijing. I live in a liberal part of California. Masks have been required indoors since August. Majority of people are vaccinated and have heard of very few people even complain about wearing masks. Omicron is running rampant here. The general consensus is it is unavoidable. While I am not really that worried about becoming sick, it seems really hard to avoid testing positive. I don’t know how the skaters will avoid it. And other parts of US are a lot worse than where I am. I would be surprised if none of the alternates are called up.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Wait, didn't they send Vincent to the Olympics and Worlds when he was only seventeen? What more could they send him to?

His first year on the Nationals podium he wasn't picked for the World team. He didn't have the minimums, but there were competitions he could have tried to get those at before Worlds but was not given the opportunity. I don't know what the selection criteria were at that time, so I'm not sure how close (or not) he was to getting picked.

 

[Tavi...]

I was responding to another poster, karne, who claimed that Jason is competitive for major international medals (World/Olympic) on the basis of 4CC medals and a small world medal. He is "competitive for medals" but he is not "competitive for World/Olympic medals". He has not won a GP event or a 4CC, which feature only a subset of top contenders for those big-event medals. Do you feel like he is competitive for an Olympic medal? Since you're probably inclined to avoid the question and drag Ilya, I'll address him. I think Ilya would be very unlikely to medal but at least has to the technical merit to compete (and has skated programs with multiple quads in competition). I also think Ilya would benefit greatly from the Olympic experience to be a future leader for the US men, but that's my personal opinion and obviously not part of the selection process. Nonetheless, he should be on the team based on the selection criteria alone.

First, since you quoted me, I didn’t realize you were responding to Karne. Second, I think Jason is a long shot for an Olympic medal but I wouldn’t say it’s totally impossible. There are a lot of factors that play into medaling, and even more that play into being competitive, not just jump content. This season alone Jason has beaten Kolyada, Aliev, Messing, Semenenko, Rizzo, Kvitelashvili, Yamamoto, and Mozalev, among others. At Worlds he beat Boyang and Vincent by a landslide. At 2020 4CCs, he beat out Yuma, Boyang, and Jun to take that silver. Looking only at base value, would you have predicted that? I realize most skaters peak at the Olys, but most people thought Nathan had a good chance to win and he ended up placing 5th.

Finally, I don’t think I’ve dissed Ilia anywhere, so please don’t project that kind of negativity onto me. Thanks.

 

[moonvine]

I get what you're saying here, and I want to respond in a general fashion... emotionally distanced from the current situation, so I ask everyone to disregard any temptation to tie this to Ilia or Jason.

There was a new scrutiny of marketting the sport by winning as many Olympic medals as possible

I'll accept your word for it - you're well-respected as an honest guy. So, my question is this: How's that working out? When has the committee decided not to go with National results and earned a medal for that decision? The only time I can recall is Nancy Kerrigan winning silver, and that - thankfully and prayerfully going forward - is a one-off situation - unlikely to be repeated. I think I recall someone mentioning a pair in the 90's winning a medal at Worlds - maybe Todd and Jenny... but that wasn't the Olympics.

And speaking of marketing, which is the most compelling story? Which is more likely to set the hook and bring new fans into the sport?

• Be sure to watch the National Championships! A high-stakes "winner take all" event that will determine our Olympic Team! The athletes better be at the top of their game, physically and mentally, because this is for all the marbles! Dreams will come true, and dreams will be shattered! Stick around for the medal ceremony and celebrate with our new Olympians!
• Be sure to watch the National Championships! After the event, we'll convene in a secret closed-door meeting to choose the Olympic Team, evaluating mulitple performances (that you probably haven't watched) using a variety of preselected criteria (that even hard-core fans may find difficult to follow or interpret) . Don't be concerned if what we say doesn't match what you saw - trust us! We know best, and we'll let you know sometime after the event has finished and you're off doing something else. You can read about it in the paper tomorrow.

You can't use the National Championships as the Olympic Qualifying Event because if you did the USOC would be officially in charge rather than the USFSA.

This makes sense. But there's no reason to call it anything other than the National Championship. While I'm generally not in favor of selecting teams who didn't earn it on the ice at Nationals... you could even include a caveat that a clear medal threat might be given special consideration. This should calm those concerned that a skater like Nathan might have a bad day and miss the podium... although I'd just say, "Too bad." But I also realize not everyone is as OK with that outcome as I would be.

Gymnastics is wildly popular in the US. Much more so than figure skating. And they’ve been picking teams by committee since after 1992. Now that was some shenanigans. Kim Kelly was named to the team and featured in promotions. Then she was retroactively replaced by Karolyi’s athlete, Betty Okino.

After that they picked all the teams by committee, except that the winner is automatically on the team. . And people seem to accept that just fine. Sometimes they skip 3.4,5 and take the 6th place finisher. In fact most of us were shocked and some upset that they had gone with placements rather than selecting the best athletes for the team for Rio, because they had literally told the athletes that wasn’t what they were going to do. And we didn’t win the gold medal.

I don’t think how the team is picked has anything to do with who watches.

And picking Ross Miner over Adam would not have resulted in a medal.

And USFS would have to have lost its collective minds to not send Nathan Chen, reigning World and GPF champion. He was going if he came out and skated crossovers to Chopsticks. So that’s a non starter.

Unfortunately this sport has crazy financial barriers to participation. And I don’t know how to fix that. It’s a chicken and the egg situation. USFS doesn’t have much money to fund figure skaters. And they don’t have much money to fund figure skaters because the sport isn’t that popular (in the US. I know it is in other countries). It’s a niche sport.

I mean I do donate, but the amount I donate would probably pay for a single blade sharpening.

 

[moonvine]

Nurturing young talent is essential. Not to throw rocks at our friends to the North, but when the well ran dry in Canada, it seems to have run Bone Dry, and this is a country where general public interest in the sport far outpaces what we see in America.

I like Keegan and Roman, don't get me wrong... but they aren't to be spoken in the same breath as Don Jackson, Toller, Brian, Kurt, or Patrick.

Edit: And speaking of the well running dry... what about our friends across the pond? Team GB had Olympic Champions in three straight Games beginning with Curry, Torville/Dean, and Cousins. And just about nothing to crow about since.

Keegan is awesome. You’re going pretty far back. Don Jackson? From 1960? The only skater in your list that is from this century is Patrick.

 

[Myr]

His first year on the Nationals podium he wasn't picked for the World team. He didn't have the minimums, but there were competitions he could have tried to get those at before Worlds but was not given the opportunity.

I truly cannot blame them for that as the US only had two spots at Worlds 2017 and it was a qualifying event for the Olympics. They sent Nathan (himself a 1st year senior) and Jason. Their combined score was enough to qualify for three Olympic and three World spots.

So there was a lot hanging on that one competition and at that time Vincent had no international senior experience at all (he had withdrawn from his only senior competition after the SP). So I do understand why they did not send him. (+ BOW was I think already being taken into account?)

He was instead sent to junior worlds, he won the competition and the very next year he would get 2 GP events, the Olympics and Worlds.

I truly feel he got every opportunity to shine on the big stage

 

[yelyoh]

Change of subject but I am pretty worried about US team actually making it to Beijing. I live in a liberal part of California. Masks have been required indoors since August. Majority of people are vaccinated and have heard of very few people even complain about wearing masks. Omicron is running rampant here. The general consensus is it is unavoidable. While I am not really that worried about becoming sick, it seems really hard to avoid testing positive. I don’t know how the skaters will avoid it. And other parts of US are a lot worse than where I am. I would be surprised if none of the alternates are called up.

Well for what it's worth we are trending down in NY so there's that.

 

[Mathman]

I get what you're saying here, and I want to respond in a general fashion... emotionally distanced from the current situation, so I ask everyone to disregard any temptation to tie this to Ilia or Jason.

There was a new scrutiny of marketting the sport by winning as many Olympic medals as possible

How's that working out?

I did not work out at all. I tink that it was a wrong-headed approach to the sport of figure skating.

• Be sure to watch the National Championships! A high-stakes "winner take all" event that will determine our Olympic Team! The athletes better be at the top of their game, physically and mentally, because this is for all the marbles! Dreams will come true, and dreams will be shattered! Stick around for the medal ceremony and celebrate with our new Olympians!
• Be sure to watch the National Championships! After the event, we'll convene in a secret closed-door meeting to choose the Olympic Team, evaluating mulitple performances (that you probably haven't watched) using a variety of preselected criteria (that even hard-core fans may find difficult to follow or interpret) . Don't be concerned if what we say doesn't match what you saw - trust us! We know best, and we'll let you know sometime after the event has finished and you're off doing something else. You can read about it in the paper tomorrow.

If I had my druthers, I would rather see a third approach. Be sure to watch rthe U.S. Nationals Foigure Skating contest. This is the premier event of the skating season. All the chips are on the table and it's winner take all! The winner becomes tthe National Champion!!!

You can't use the National Championships as the Olympic Qualifying Event because if you did the USOC would be officially in charge rather than the USFSA.

This makes sense. But there's no reason to call it anything other than the National Championship....

As I undersatnd the wording of the International and U.S. Olympic charters, the respective Olympic Committees claim final jurisdiction over the structure of the Olympic trials. It doesn;t matter what you call it. If it is the trial whose outcome determines the Olympic team, then it is the Olympic Trial. It is possible that this is all hogwash in the legal sense. I don't know what status the IOC and the USOC have in a court of law. I have never heard of national sports federations and Olympic Committees sueing each other in civil courts (although in this litigious society it has probably happened -- for that matter, I wouldn't be surprized if individual athletes sometimes take these bodies to court over some grievance or another . Ross Miner v. the USFSA.)

Not only thast, but I have always believed that this legal querstion was just a bogus after-the-fact explanation by the USFSA of a decision that they knew would be unpopular. That is, I believe (just a hunch) that the powers-that-be wanted to increase their power and authority over their ltttle bailywick just because that's what powers-that-be do. Bottom line, the people in charge always think they know more that the great unwashed masses. Hence a Selection Committtee to guide thinhgs in the direction that they want to go, rather than leaving it up to "chamce" (the "chance" being that a bad skater might accidentally outskate a good one at Nationals) and ending up with a less that optimal team.

If I had a majic wand to wave, I would make everyone in the country like figure skating for its own sake and never mind the Olympics. That ship, however, has necer embarked. Figure skating has always been an Olympic sport, asnd it is the athletes themselves who keep the Olympic flame burning n their hearts -- who cares about the National Championship when you can get an O;ympic medal and go on Dancing wirth the Stars?

 

[moonvine]

First, since you quoted me, I didn’t realize you were responding to Karne. Second, I think Jason is a long shot for an Olympic medal but I wouldn’t say it’s totally impossible. There are a lot of factors that play into medaling, and even more that play into being competitive, not just jump content. This season alone Jason has beaten Kolyada, Aliev, Messing, Semenenko, Rizzo, Kvitelashvili, Yamamoto, and Mozalev, among others. At Worlds he beat Boyang and Vincent by a landslide. At 2020 4CCs, he beat out Yuma, Boyang, and Jun to take that silver. Looking only at base value, would you have predicted that? I realize most skaters peak at the Olys, but most people thought Nathan had a good chance to win and he ended up placing 5th.

Finally, I don’t think I’ve dissed Ilia anywhere, so please don’t project that kind of negativity onto me. Thanks.

At this Olympics more than any other literally anything is possible.

Change of subject but I am pretty worried about US team actually making it to Beijing. I live in a liberal part of California. Masks have been required indoors since August. Majority of people are vaccinated and have heard of very few people even complain about wearing masks. Omicron is running rampant here. The general consensus is it is unavoidable. While I am not really that worried about becoming sick, it seems really hard to avoid testing positive. I don’t know how the skaters will avoid it. And other parts of US are a lot worse than where I am. I would be surprised if none of the alternates are called up.

I’m EXTREMELY concerned about this. I’ve said several times I’m prepared for anything from the podium to consist of skaters we would expect to skaters we would never expect. Say a Rizzo Aymoz Bychenko podium. I’m prepared for our whole team (or any other country’s whole team) to not be able to go and our team to consist of Ma, Malinim and Pulkanin. I think it is horrific that the Olympics are going ahead like this. But so far neither the IOC nor the organizing committee has called to ask my opinion.

 

[TontoK]

Keegan is awesome. You’re going pretty far back. Don Jackson? From 1960? The only skater in your list that is from this century is Patrick.

Jackson was listed as an example of the quality of men skaters we've come to expect from our Canadian friends. Think of it as a running list of Canadian legends... on which, as much as I enjoy Keegan's skating... I don't think he would belong. It would be like putting Mariah Bell on a legends list that includes Peggy Fleming, Janet Lynn, Michelle Kwan... I mean she's a fine skater, I like her well enough, but not in the same class, in my opinion.

You like Keegan, too. Do you think he belongs on that list?

 

[moonvine]

You like Keegan, too. Do you think he belongs on that list?

Right now today? No. I do think he keeps improving and if he were to stick around for a couple more years who knows. But that’s unlikely.
But if he got an OGM (for all we know the US, Russian and Japanese teams won’t make the trip) he would automatically be in there even if he beat a watered down field. I don’t think it should be the be all and end all but it is.
He could win a Worlds medal if he goes and lots of the other top skaters skip.

 

[el henry]

You are seriously valuing a chocolate medal...

I do.

As far as I know it is pewter, not chocolate. Have you skated as an elite skater where you have been so good at your craft and scored so highly that you won a pewter medal, and so you know that it's chocolate? That would be awesome.

(And just in general and not directed at your post, if I hear anything about participation ribbons, which a pewter medal is not, I'm breaking the old lady cybercane out of storage.)