Not confused. I got my answer. I meant that selection system is also something hard to read through.I said "no one can read it all": meaning the thread. I was agreeing with your OP.
and here is the document that you are looking for and it is just for the Olympics. Answering the question.
If I was confusing, I apologize, but I think we are in agreement.
US Olympic Team Announced
- Thread starter Minz
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- Feb 27, 2012
For 2022 Worlds, USFS selection procedures are here:
And yes, it is a different document from USFS selection procedures for 2022 Olympics.
(USFS selection procedures for 2014 Worlds also differed from selection procedures for 2014 Olympics.)
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- Jul 26, 2003
The thing that puzzles me is not how Jason, Ilia, and Vincent compare. The Olympics is a frill. I love it, but it only yields bragging rights for a country and the skaters who medal. All three skaters are worthy In different ways.
But World's and Junior Worlds are where there is an actual reward for a federation in terms of Worlds and Junior Worlds spots, and JGP slots for the following season, not Olympics. I want to see Ilia at Junior World's especially, because our Junior Men's team could use him. I want Ilia at Senior World's because it will be good for the federation, and he deserves it. Doing all three Olympics, Junior World's, and World's, is too much to ask.
Now what I am more puzzled at is the general assumption that Knierim & Frazier should be a lock for both Worlds and Olympics, and should skate the team event, too.
Despite our familiarity with them, they are a relatively new team. They should get no goody points for achievements with previous partners.
For one example, their triple twist is not particularly good, where Knierim & Knierim were top of the trees in that regard.
As noted earlier in this thread:
World Standings:
7 Ashley CAIN-GRIBBLE / Timothy LEDUC
13 Jessica CALALANG / Brian JOHNSON
15 Alexa KNIERIM / Brandon FRAZIER
17 Audrey LU / Misha MITROFANOV
and in the season standings, CAIN-GRIBBLE and LEDUC are also ahead of KNIERIM/FRASIER
KNIERIM/FRASIER did not even skate at Nationals. (And a case of COVID now does not improve your chances of skating well at the Olympics in a month in the team event.)
If you are arguing for giving the young technical experts the exposure at Olympics, why aren't you all advocating for LU/MITROFANOV to go to the Olympics and get some polish instead of KNIERIM/FRASIER?
And those who want only the top competitors at Nationals (for pairs, only two get to go) to always go, why aren't you advocating for CALALANG / JOHNSON to go rather than KNIERIM/FRASIER?
And why on earth would anyone want KNIERIM/FRASIER to skate the team event when before Brandon got sick, they still ranked behind C-G/L despite the early part of their season being affected by Ashley's recovery from COVID?
Call me
and 
!
But World's and Junior Worlds are where there is an actual reward for a federation in terms of Worlds and Junior Worlds spots, and JGP slots for the following season, not Olympics. I want to see Ilia at Junior World's especially, because our Junior Men's team could use him. I want Ilia at Senior World's because it will be good for the federation, and he deserves it. Doing all three Olympics, Junior World's, and World's, is too much to ask.
Now what I am more puzzled at is the general assumption that Knierim & Frazier should be a lock for both Worlds and Olympics, and should skate the team event, too.
Despite our familiarity with them, they are a relatively new team. They should get no goody points for achievements with previous partners.
For one example, their triple twist is not particularly good, where Knierim & Knierim were top of the trees in that regard.
As noted earlier in this thread:
World Standings:
7 Ashley CAIN-GRIBBLE / Timothy LEDUC
13 Jessica CALALANG / Brian JOHNSON
15 Alexa KNIERIM / Brandon FRAZIER
17 Audrey LU / Misha MITROFANOV
and in the season standings, CAIN-GRIBBLE and LEDUC are also ahead of KNIERIM/FRASIER
KNIERIM/FRASIER did not even skate at Nationals. (And a case of COVID now does not improve your chances of skating well at the Olympics in a month in the team event.)
If you are arguing for giving the young technical experts the exposure at Olympics, why aren't you all advocating for LU/MITROFANOV to go to the Olympics and get some polish instead of KNIERIM/FRASIER?
And those who want only the top competitors at Nationals (for pairs, only two get to go) to always go, why aren't you advocating for CALALANG / JOHNSON to go rather than KNIERIM/FRASIER?
And why on earth would anyone want KNIERIM/FRASIER to skate the team event when before Brandon got sick, they still ranked behind C-G/L despite the early part of their season being affected by Ashley's recovery from COVID?
Call me
and !
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- Feb 27, 2012
... KNIERIM/FRASIER did not even skate at Nationals. (And a case of COVID now does not improve your chances of skating well at the Olympics in a month in the team event.)
If you are arguing for giving the young technical experts the exposure at Olympics, why aren't you all advocating for LU/MITROFANOV to go to the Olympics and get some polish instead of KNIERIM/FRASIER?
And those who want only the top competitors at Nationals (for pairs, only two get to go) to always go, why aren't you advocating for CALALANG / JOHNSON to go rather than KNIERIM/FRASIER?
And why on earth would anyone want KNIERIM/FRASIER to skate the team event when before Brandon got sick, they still rank behind C-G/L despite the early part of their season being affected by Ashley's recovery from COVID?
Call me
My heart is with Calalang/Johnson more than any other U.S. pair. I like Lu/Mitrofanov too. And Cain-Gribble/LeDuc.
In terms of subjective preference, I am not on the Knierim/Frazier bandwagon.
But it is undeniable that they were the only pair who met the USFS criteria for Priority Group 2.
Successfully petitioned, although they did not compete at 2022 Nats.
Median international score above benchmark of fifth-place score at 2021 Worlds.
Quite a different kettle of fish from Ilia and Jason both being in Priority Group 3.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
Ah, but those arguing against Jason's selection are not buying the criteria.
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- Jan 28, 2013
Hi, @dorispulaski. You're correct in one regard... I normally advocate for top Nationals podium members to make Olympics and Worlds teams.
I have made a personal exception to this stance this year for the pairs and the women. It just seemed brutally unfair... even to me, a Nationals result oriented guy... to exclude top competitors who caught COVID at the actual event.
Whether I would be OK with this outcome had another eligible rival blown the roof off at Nashville - I honestly don't know. If C/J had duplicated the quality of their excellent SP in the long, that might be a different story. Same with Lindsay Thorngren. But neither did, and honestly... they gave me no reason to care. Audrey and Misha... as much I as enjoy them... never entered into my personal selection algebra because they finished behind C/J.
Right now, I think Ashley and Tim should skate the Team Event, but I suppose a lot depends on how everyone is skating as Beijing approaches. We're not really privy to practices and training until then.
I have made a personal exception to this stance this year for the pairs and the women. It just seemed brutally unfair... even to me, a Nationals result oriented guy... to exclude top competitors who caught COVID at the actual event.
Whether I would be OK with this outcome had another eligible rival blown the roof off at Nashville - I honestly don't know. If C/J had duplicated the quality of their excellent SP in the long, that might be a different story. Same with Lindsay Thorngren. But neither did, and honestly... they gave me no reason to care. Audrey and Misha... as much I as enjoy them... never entered into my personal selection algebra because they finished behind C/J.
Right now, I think Ashley and Tim should skate the Team Event, but I suppose a lot depends on how everyone is skating as Beijing approaches. We're not really privy to practices and training until then.
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- Feb 27, 2012
As discussed in another thread, the USFS criteria for Olympic selection are not the epitome of clarity (understatement).
Some of Ilia's advocates are interpreting the criteria differently from some of Jason's advocates.
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2013
In an alternate universe, I wonder if those arguing for Jason would be as vociferous in arguing for Vincent if the scoring between the two had gone half-a-point the other way. Are those people advocating for the criteria? Or are they advocating for Jason?
My own position would be the same... top three podium placements make the team, no matter who they are.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2007
This is all very interesting. I had an assumption that K/F were our number one team.The thing that puzzles me is not how Jason, Ilia, and Vincent compare. The Olympics is a frill. I love it, but it only yields bragging rights for a country and the skaters who medal. All three skaters are worthy In different ways.
But World's and Junior Worlds are where there is an actual reward for a federation in terms of Worlds and Junior Worlds spots, and JGP slots for the following season, not Olympics. I want to see Ilia at Junior World's especially, because our Junior Men's team could use him. I want Ilia at Senior World's because it will be good for the federation, and he deserves it. Doing all three Olympics, Junior World's, and World's, is too much to ask.
Now what I am more puzzled at is the general assumption that Knierim & Frazier should be a lock for both Worlds and Olympics, and should skate the team event, too.
Despite our familiarity with them, they are a relatively new team. They should get no goody points for achievements with previous partners.
For one example, their triple twist is not particularly good, where Knierim & Knierim were top of the trees in that regard.
As noted earlier in this thread:
World Standings:
7 Ashley CAIN-GRIBBLE / Timothy LEDUC
13 Jessica CALALANG / Brian JOHNSON
15 Alexa KNIERIM / Brandon FRAZIER
17 Audrey LU / Misha MITROFANOV
and in the season standings, CAIN-GRIBBLE and LEDUC are also ahead of KNIERIM/FRASIER
KNIERIM/FRASIER did not even skate at Nationals. (And a case of COVID now does not improve your chances of skating well at the Olympics in a month in the team event.)
If you are arguing for giving the young technical experts the exposure at Olympics, why aren't you all advocating for LU/MITROFANOV to go to the Olympics and get some polish instead of KNIERIM/FRASIER?
And those who want only the top competitors at Nationals (for pairs, only two get to go) to always go, why aren't you advocating for CALALANG / JOHNSON to go rather than KNIERIM/FRASIER?
And why on earth would anyone want KNIERIM/FRASIER to skate the team event when before Brandon got sick, they still rank behind C-G/L despite the early part of their season being affected by Ashley's recovery from COVID?
Call me
They haven’t been beaten by C-G/L or C/J this year (not part of the criteria)
I don’t think I have access to the latest version of the criteria, because I would swear the criteria included “x place at National Championship or successfully petitioned athlete.” That or I’m hallucinating (either is possible).
C-G/L skated very close to clean. No one else did. Maybe if all 3 had skated clean, or even two of them, it might have been more controversial.
And in general, pairs aren’t as popular.
But I think applying the criteria in the other 3 disciplines just happened to fall in line with the placements.
It will be interesting if K/F do indeed skate in the team event.
I'm actually in the camp using the criteria could have gone either way and sending Jason was a choiceAs discussed in another thread, the USFS criteria for Olympic selection are not the epitome of clarity (understatement).
Some of Ilia's advocates are interpreting the criteria differently from some of Jason's advocates.
Jason - did well at Worlds, consistent but scoring is relatively stagnant
Ilia - did better at Nationals, more inconsistent, but trending upwards
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2007
Vincent was in Priority 2. The only way he could have moved down to Priority 3 would be by not placing in the top 5. There was no way for Jason or Ilya to move up to Priority 2. So half a point would not have made any difference. He would have had to score 30 points less.
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- Feb 27, 2012
I think moonvine intended to say that there was no way for Jason or Ilia to move up to Priority Group 2.
Even if Vincent had placed fourth at 2022 Nats behind Ilia and Jason, he (Vincent) still would have been in Group 2 and still would have been ahead of Ilia and Jason in terms of Olympic selection.
And the USFS committee still would have been faced with choosing btwn Ilia and Jason for the Olympic team.
(That said, I think Tonto's questions are good ones.)
You are not hallucinating.
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- Mar 14, 2007
I think moonvine intended to say that there was no way for Jason or Ilia to move up to Priority Group 2.
Even if Vincent had placed fourth at 2022 Nats behind Ilia and Jason, he still would have been in Group 2 and still would have been ahead of Ilia and Jason in terms of Olympic selection.
And the USFS committee still would have been faced with choosing btwn Ilia and Jason for the Olympic team.
(That said, I think Tonto's questions are good ones.)
You are not hallucinating.
I meant if Vincent had placed in 6th, or other placement below 5th, he would move down to Group 3.
Group 2 was Top 5 at US Nationals (or successfully petitioned athlete) AND International scores consistently demonstrate an ability to be Top 5 at the 2022 Olympic Games OR attained a score that demonstrates ability to place in the Top 3 at the 2022 Olympic Games. So if Vincent had come in 6th he would no longer be in Priority Group 2. And this thread would be even longer.
I’m glad I’m not hallucinating.
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- Mar 14, 2007
I guess I'm not understanding how it could have gone either way.I'm actually in the camp using the criteria could have gone either way and sending Jason was a choice
Jason - did well at Worlds, consistent but scoring is relatively stagnant
Ilia - did better at Nationals, more inconsistent, but trending upwards
Nathan was Priority Group 1, Vincent Priority Group 2, and Jason and Ilia in Priority Group 3.
The "additional criteria per Priority Group" is below.
Can you tell me how you believe it could have gone either way? Because I am not seeing it.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2012
I meant if Vincent had placed in 6th, or other placement below 5th, he would move down to Group 3.
Group 2 was Top 5 at US Nationals (or successfully petitioned athlete) AND International scores consistently demonstrate an ability to be Top 5 at the 2022 Olympic Games OR attained a score that demonstrates ability to place in the Top 3 at the 2022 Olympic Games. So if Vincent had come in 6th he would no longer be in Priority Group 2. And this thread would be even longer.
I’m glad I’m not hallucinating.
Yes, we are on the same page regarding Vincent.
If Vincent had placed sixth at 2022 Nats, he would have been in Priority Group 3 -- same group as Ilia and Jason.
If Vincent had placed fourth or fifth, he still would have been in Priority Group 2 -- group above Ilia and Jason.
Your second tweet from Jackie gives criteria that could lead different people to form different opinions.
Competitiveness: Ilia and Jason both in Priority Group 3
Consistency: Jason has higher median score
Trending: Ilia trends higher
"Within the same priority group, the following criteria are taken into account:"
- 2021 Worlds scores (Jason "wins" the comparison against Ilia) + 2021 GPF scores (event cancelled) + 2022 Nats placements (Ilia "wins" the comparison against Jason). "To further identify competitiveness at the three most important events immediately preceding the 2022 Olympic Winter Games."
- Trending scores, with 2022 Nats as the final event for trending scores: If you ask me, Ilia "wins" on this point
- If athletes cannot be separated using previous criteria, placements from 2022 Nats (higher priority, and Ilia "wins") and 2021 Nats (lower priority, and Jason "wins")
- Trending scores, with 2022 Nats as the final event for trending scores: If you ask me, Ilia "wins" on this point
- If athletes cannot be separated using previous criteria, placements from 2022 Nats (higher priority, and Ilia "wins") and 2021 Nats (lower priority, and Jason "wins")
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- Mar 14, 2007
Jackie believes the criteria are in order of importance. I’m not sure if someone at USFS told him this or if he just believes it. It would be interesting to know.
He said “the decision should be clear.” Clear or unclear he was correct. Although I guess a person could guess and be correct as there are only two possible outcomes.
More than 30 points! Vincent would've had to go below Jimmy Ma which is more than 63 points less. It would be difficult to argue he should've been this low even if you destroy his score with underrotations and downgrades.
The problem is I feel the criteria is skewed to adversely affected younger skaters. If we are going to talk about competitiveness Ilias technical content versus Jason’s needs to be factors in.
He landed six quads at Nationals that kind of technical achievement few man have done.
Young skaters don’t have body of work really they are young and development but someone showing that kind of raw technical ability should factor into competitiveness.
The whole thing is silliness to me every point in Jason’s favor is mainly due to Jason having far more competitive opportunities than Ilia.
And he should have done more senior bs is silly.
Jason had plenty of opportunities to get in group 2 far more than Ilia.
The fact that Jason ended up in the same priority group as a first year senior shouldn’t be a point in Jason’s favor.
He landed six quads at Nationals that kind of technical achievement few man have done.
Young skaters don’t have body of work really they are young and development but someone showing that kind of raw technical ability should factor into competitiveness.
The whole thing is silliness to me every point in Jason’s favor is mainly due to Jason having far more competitive opportunities than Ilia.
And he should have done more senior bs is silly.
Jason had plenty of opportunities to get in group 2 far more than Ilia.
The fact that Jason ended up in the same priority group as a first year senior shouldn’t be a point in Jason’s favor.
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2013
If people want to complain about the criteria and favouritism, the thing people should be actually upset about is the disgraceful decision by the USFS to treat Zhou's 25th place at Worlds 2021 as a withdrawal, and not counting it towards his median score. Regardless of whether it would have made a difference or not, that was a clear statement of favouritism and went entirely against the criteria.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2012
The overall decision from the committee was to select Jason, as we all know.
But I do not find it hard to see why different people who are applying the criteria could reach different opinions about the selection.
