Kamila Valieva: Anti-doping Case and Follow-ups

[Mista Ekko]

The difference in doping is a minor would not know what they were doing in reality while an adult would. I hope that's taken into consideration for this immediate decision and the long term decision on this phenomenal girl's future.

I meant if someone could clarify as to the specific leniencies a minor might receive, as in 2 months as opposed to
8 months and stuff like that, apart from not being actually charged.

 

[brakes]

Also, in your opinion, in such an unstable sport as figure skating (in the sense that "ice is slippery"), one unsuccessful performance is already enough to suspect a figure skater?

I'm just answering immortal doping question: "why would she/he, she is so good without dope!".

I've read/heard it ad nauseum: Ben Johnson, Lance Armstrong, Marion Jones - they all were dominating figures in their sports who'd probably do very good without doping, unfortunately they chose differently and their supporters started singing that never-ending song.

It's immortal syndrome of sporting fan denial process.

 

[4everchan]

That's the whole point, it's the exact same drug and you can't say that contamination could not be a cause for testing positive when contamination has shown to be a cause before.

I am not saying anything : Dick Pound, IOC member is saying it.

 

[flanker]

So did Sasha and Anya, just with no trimetazidine in their system.

Then you should disagree with the comments "they are all in that with her, just weren't catched yet", that grow like mushrooms after the rain here, don't be so selective. Again, if there are cases like those stated above (contamination, caused by other substance contained in cosmetics), why one should be so invested in quick-to-conclusion with this case. I doubt you were with the other causes. I really doubt that when Calalang was found guilty, before being freed of charges, people were calling for

There had been restricted amount of time to adjust - only few months to Olympics.

And? So what? Most athletes through disciplines train to gain the top form before the olympics, what's surprising about that. Kami is not some star quickly raised from nothing, her qualities are known for years even if she's still so young. That media and people not interested in figure skating discovered her only now doesn't change that, though it is sad that people who objectively know her for a long time start to behave like all those who learned about her just now.

I should add that in training you usually do not improve just continuously, you usually step "before the door" for a long time, try, try try, it's still not there, and then it breaks and you finally move to an upper level very quickly.

 

[florin]

Hypothetically, of course ... How does one achieve coordination? Through repetition and muscle memory. That takes substantial training. Doping is not only used to gain strength or muscle mass. The drug of concern here allows for better recovery, which allows for more training... for more repetition... and then it allows to achieve better coordination. This would be my hypothesis.

Your theoretical constructions are implicitly based on the hypothesis that a good athlete is separated from a bad one only by these conditional 10-15% of longer training sessions (presumably). As for me, this is very... a dubious hypothesis.

Brown is already close, already about to jump quads like Nathan Chen, but every time he gets to this invisible limit, his body treacherously falls breathless on the ice, Orser sighs and together with the choreographer pull him off the ice by his feet. "Oh, if only we could take this wonderful drug my figure skater would conquer the world! But that would be cheating. No!"

 

[4everchan]

Your theoretical constructions are implicitly based on the hypothesis that a good athlete is separated from a bad one only by these conditional 10-15% of longer training sessions (presumably). As for me, this is very... a dubious hypothesis.

Brown is already close, already about to jump quads like Nathan Chen, but every time he gets to this invisible limit, his body treacherously falls breathless on the ice, Orser sighs and together with the choreographer pull him off the ice by his feet. "Oh, if only we could take this wonderful drug my figure skater would conquer the world! But that would be cheating. No!"

This analogy is false though. I agree that some athletes are more naturally talented, better genetically equipped to achieve certain movements, like Brown's flexibility is not going to be matched by just anyone no matter how much training. We even see skaters capable of different types of quads and incapable of triple axels or other quads.

However, let's say, hypothetically, that a skater who has all the capacities to jump the quads, and has done so before but then loses their timing. In that hypothetical case, considering an imminent deadline to be ready for a very important season, if training longer and harder is required and can be achieved by taking a drug, some might be tempted to do it. Hypothetically speaking of course.

 

[Fanof]

https://twitter.com/Eurosport_FR/status/1492399676569624576
(The caption reads as follows:
"The tears of Kamila Valieva in the arms of her coach during her training session on Saturday. The IOC and the WADA officially seized the CAS after the positive test of the young Russian of 15 years who sees her participation in the Games put in question").

 

[Fried]

In a training system based on maximum repetition, the effect of this drug is absolutely helpful. And the question of usefulness in view of the limited effect does not arise as long as the user believes that they have such control over the administration that it cannot be detected.
BTW: It's funny how the usual suspects now pretend figure skating doesn't push the physical limit when they used to never tire of categorizing youngsters based on whether or not they could handle the training regime at TT.

 

[Mista Ekko]

https://twitter.com/Eurosport_FR/status/1492399676569624576
(The caption reads as follows:
"The tears of Kamila Valieva in the arms of her coach during her training session on Saturday. The IOC and the WADA officially seized the CAS after the positive test of the young Russian of 15 years who sees her participation in the Games put in question").

Yes it would suck hard to climb so far only to have a bunch of people you don't know make a decision
that you can't participate last minute, plus we don't know what people around her are telling her or
how they might be trying to make her feel.

I can also assume that at least 50% of the participating athletes here will have tears in their eyes for all sorts
of reasons at some point during their stay in Beijing, the Olympic experience must be intense,
not to mentions all the athletes who couldn't make it or weren't chosen.

 

[[email protected]]

I don't know how to single out political aspects out of this. In today's news there is information that the very same swedish lab came out with clean Kamila's tests after the Europeans. However, her Rusnats results "became known" only after TE. I know that one can explain everything. But this just does not make sense. Especially when we are talking not about some first group skater (with all due respect) but about the world's record holder by a big margin. Today there is a CAS arbitration with the chairman from the U.S.A. Don't we know the result in advance? There is a good Russian saying about this sort of situations.

Actually, I am through with figure skating. I shall find new interests in life

In fact, I am not talking politics, although these days it is hard not to. But there is a clear conflict of interests as The US team will get the gold. But no one seems to care. "Mission accomplished".

 

[brakes]

https://twitter.com/Eurosport_FR/status/1492399676569624576
(The caption reads as follows:
"The tears of Kamila Valieva in the arms of her coach during her training session on Saturday. The IOC and the WADA officially seized the CAS after the positive test of the young Russian of 15 years who sees her participation in the Games put in question").

I see doctor Shvetsky is doing well in the background. They should've put him on some stool and add some light to make him more visible and distinctive.

 

[silveruskate]

It's not what I think. If you bothered to read WADA's documents describing what a protected person was you'd know that this line from my first post,

"Valieva can be handed anywhere from a slap on the wrist to 2 years for testing positive due to her protected person status."

...was directly lifted from the document detailing what measures can be taken against her. As mentioned, Kostner didn't actually dope and received an 18 month suspension. Valieva, an athlete who did dope, can only receive a **maximum** 2-year ban... or get off completely free. Quite a distinction in punishment when it comes to an adult athlete versus a protected person. That's not opinion, it's fact. Take it up with WADA if you have an issue.

How embarrassing of you to use that tone in what was a decent discussion so far. Well if you bothered to read my comments you would see I have cited the Code itself. I said most of what you said myself already. The document itself states for a Protected Person only she will have to show No Significant Fault or Negligence no matter what others do around her. She went with the direction of her National Team Doctor so there's nothing more for her to have done, even if he shows Significant Fault. The threshold for being culpable itself is lower for Kamila. Now if they find No Significant Fault or Negligence, what happens in those cases? Sorry to say (for anybody wishing it on Kamila) any long ban is not what happens. Maybe read what I write carefully before sounding off.

Lying to help somebody else cheat is also very bad. That shows intent do not forget.

 

[flanker]

I don't know how to single out political aspects out of this. In today's news there is information that the very same swedish lab came out with clean Kamila's tests after the Europeans. However, her Rusnats results "became known" only after TE. I know that one can explain everything. But this just does not make sense. Especially when we are talking not about some first group skater (with all due respect) but about the world's record holder by a big margin. Today there is a CAS arbitration with the chairman from the U.S.A. Don't we know the result in advance? There is a good Russian saying about this sort of situations.

Actually, I am through with figure skating. I shall find new interests in life

In fact, I am not talking politics, although these days it is hard not to. But there is a clear conflict of interests as The US team will get the gold. But no one seems to care. "Mission accomplished".

There will be still russian nationals which under the current development will probably officially become the most interesting event.

I confess I'm fighting with myself to leave the whole sport behind. It should bring you joy, but it doesn't now. The only thing that still keeps me here is that I don't want all the fans would leave them girls alone and so I can't either.

 

[skatesofgold]

I think she's gonna be allowed to compete tbh. This case started with major conflicts of interest, which doesn't bode well for the rest of the investigation. It's not fair when other athletes have been banned immediately for less, but...

Yeah, I wonder if this'll be more like Raducan's case because of her age.

 

[florin]

This analogy is false though. I agree that some athletes are more naturally talented, better genetically equipped to achieve certain movements, like Brown's flexibility is not going to be matched by just anyone no matter how much training. We even see skaters capable of different types of quads an incapable of triple axels or other quads.

However, let's say, hypothetically, that a skater who has all the capacities to jump the quads, and has done so before but then loses their timing. In that hypothetical case, considering an imminent deadline to be ready for a very important season, if training longer and harder is required and can be achieved by taking a drug, some might be tempted to do it. Hypothetically speaking of course.

Too many hypotheses per square centimeter for me

But let's take a different angle. OK, let's assume that these logical constructs work. But this logic implies that is not the kind of doping that works immediately (I threw a pill in my mouth and won the Russian Championship). Systematic use is required (I've done 30 trainings, but they're like your 35. Therefore, you are, relatively speaking, "in the October form", and I am already in the "November form", so I win)

Do you seriously believe that they would take such a serious risk for these hypothetical advantages? And how to bypass a random check? The half-life of the drug is 7-12 hours, but here everything depends on the sensitivity of the laboratory if they can detect 1/64 of the peak concentration, then you need to stop for six periods, and if 1/1024 then for 10 periods (3-5 days). Do you think the doping agency will warn you a week in advance that it will take a random test from you?

 

[Fanof]

From "L'Equipe", the main sports newspaper in France:
"Tested positive for trimetazidine before the Olympics - an information revealed only on Friday -, the young Russian skater will be heard by the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) on Sunday (13:30, French time = 8:30pm Beijing time). The decision of the CAS is expected the next day, Monday, on the eve of the beginning of the short program."

 

[BlackAxel]

Other than Adam Rippon, Katarina Witt, Romain H (P/C coach) ... who else from the figure skating community have spoken about the doping controversy?

 

[*~RussianBleux~*]

And while they took that training time clean, Kami must have gained that training time because of doping. Right. Double standard crystal clear.

It is as I said above, when you achieve a particular level every success is a proof of your guilt per se. At least in the eyes of the others.

This is so unbelievable to me. The positive test that came back on her is incredibly strong evidence that she doped. Knowingly, unknowingly, whatever.

Take that in conjunction with everyone else. The evidence points in one place and it is not that this is some kind of misunderstanding.

 

[silveruskate]

But I am worried they might purposefully use a terrible excuse she got it from her parents etc. as Lomerizine even if there aren't the specific other metabolites in her blood to prove it. She would be in much more solid ground to say her Team Doctor gave Trimetazidine but that would open up RusFed being investigated for doping on a wild scale again.

 

[flanker]

This is so unbelievable to me. The positive test that came back on her is incredibly strong evidence that she doped. Knowingly, unknowingly, whatever.

Take that in conjunction with everyone else. The evidence points in one place and it is not that this is some kind of misunderstanding.

That she tested plenty of times clean is a strong indication that it is an error/matter of contamination/response to another substance that causes the same metabolic reaction. I won't base my conclusions on hints like "Shabotova spoke anbout doping" and all the nonsense people here consider supportive evidence no matter how many times it was disproven.