Kamila Valieva: Anti-doping Case and Follow-ups

[Mista Ekko]

If Valieva compete i wouldn't even be that mad. Others escape suspensions in shadow. This will just be another way to escape suspension, in front of cameras. I don't think that all the other skaters who are competing never got something in their systems. They just never got caught.
They are some athletic performances imo that are difficult to achieve without a bit of help. And there are athletes who are allowed to take those banned substance for "health conditions". Even if the health conditions are real, how do we know if they don't get an unfair advantage over their competitors?

please understand that this way of thinking
is what keeps these kind of problems in sport alive.

 

[LiamForeman]

Their job isn't to prove whether she is benefitting or not. More likely their job is to prove if she took the banned substance knowingly or not.

If only it were that easy because I would believe Kamila 100% if she testified that she had no idea what she was being given. So it should end there. If only... But thinking about it, if it is determined it was her coaching team that was responsible and not her and so she gets to compete and wins, many worry that that will set the precedent for the resultant pile of "It was my coach, give me my OGM" and get away with it. What they really need to do, and we'll see how well-liked Eteri actually is, is suspend Eteri from coaching for four years. I can't imagine the powers that be in Russia are at all happy with Eteri, because it is likely possibly because of her that she has brought shame to her country. If Eteri gets suspended for four years, I don't think we'll be seeing any other coaches trying to get away with doping and using that excuse again. A successful coach doesn't want to lose their career. When the COACH is the 'doper', THEY are the ones who should be punished. And if a coach of Eteri's stature is banned for four years, I just don't see any coach ever thinking of risking their career doping their students. At least that's how i see it.

And when it comes down to TMZ and that it is not scientifically proven that it actually enhances performance, we need to look at the individual athlete involved. As in, this isn't even proven to help, and this girl was a clear standout for four years and you are barring her from competing for her destined for OGM because, why, some THINK it MIGHT enhance performance. We don't know it even does help and she was so far ahead of the rest of the world that if effectively wouldn't really change her advantage anyway. Age of minority athletes should be given generous consideration. Punish the adult with the strictest penalty given to an athlete of four years suspension from coaching. I am really hoping that Kamila is vindicated today and tomorrow. She is the victim here, and all the other competitors know they would never have been competitive against her with or without TMZ. Their "losing to a doper" when the dope isn't even known to be a dope and she was clearly the best in the world would seem hollow. Like Raducan's teammate who took over her OGM. How satisfying exactly would that be that they "won" an OGM because the best skater in the world, light years ahead of them for years, was the victim of a coach/team doc who sabotaged her career? So, maybe these athletes might not even want that second OGM, because it was given to them due to the suffering of a child at the hands of adults?

So I'm firmly TeamKamila now. (Now I bet that means they'll throw everything and the kitchen sink at her...)

 

[flipsydoodle]

TMZ is only given to athletes while they are in training. Training their bodies to do the quads, practice and skate longer and harder. Once in competition, the banned drug is out of their system..During the Olympics there is Zero doping in one’s system, even a trace is still classified as doping. I am wondering, the minor will be 16 in April, would it have made any difference in this doping situation, if she was 16. Doping is Doping..

What is the evidence TMZ is not given during competitions? TMZ has a short half life. We are seeing dramatic stamina turnarounds between short programs and long programs. TMZ could be taken after a short program and clear before a long program AFAIK. Plus, dopers often use other substances to disguise doping.
In other words, I wouldn’t assume some favorite skaters aren’t doping during competitions.

 

[flipsydoodle]

please understand that this way of thinking
is what keeps these kind of problems in sport alive.

It’s not this way of thinking that keeps drug issues in sport alive, but this way of acting. There’s no problem thinking about drugs, only about taking them. IMO

 

[Mista Ekko]

It’s not this way of thinking that keeps drug issues in sport alive, but this way of acting. There’s no problem thinking about drugs, only about taking them. IMO

I think you went a little harsh on my phrasing

point is people or camps who end up doping usually justify their actions
by believing that kind of stuff, and when they get caught they use that false
justification to keep from actually evolving for the better.

 

[solani]

Regarding the half-life of drugs - this means the half-life of the drug in the blood. You can't calculate or conclude from that time, how long metabolites of that drug will be present in the urine. I tried to find it for TMZ and luckily, I couldn't find anything. Cheats would be interested in that info.

 

[skated011]

I was busy from work but wow at the speculations here, these are bordering on conspiracy theories. Valieva getting a ban from 4 to 2 years. not even a full adult that nkrwegian johaug got that much of a ban for a so called "lipstick"

 

[macy]

The kingdom of crooked mirrors! Everything is perverted and turned upside down.

It is injuries that are one of the most important limiting factors. That is why the logic of the supposed advantage of TMZ does not work at all in figure skating (this logic is taken from such sports as athletics, swimming, etc.) And we really have to discuss the legitimacy and correctness of the formalistic-bureaucratic vision of WADA. Instead, you perverted it and turned upside down.

It's useless. You just want blood and have decided everything for yourself. This is understandable - such a delightful opportunity to destroy this hated Russian superiority. I'm sure everything will turn out exactly the way you want - they will ruin Kamila's life, and undermine the reputation of Russian ladies. Enjoy.

All I pointed out was logic and did not express anything else you are accusing me of.

It's been well established this drug lets the skaters train longer, harder, and with more repetitions. If kamila isn't the only one using it for training, it only makes sense that overtraining = increased risk of injury.

Obviously we don't know the full story yet, but if that is true, it makes sense.

 

[beachmouse]

If only it were that easy because I would believe Kamila 100% if she testified that she had no idea what she was being given. So it should end there. If only... But thinking about it, if it is determined it was her coaching team that was responsible and not her and so she gets to compete and wins, many worry that that will set the precedent for the resultant pile of "It was my coach, give me my OGM" and get away with it.

The present strict liability anti-doping rules that say an athlete is responsible for what's in their body and sample regardless are because of the abusive DDR system where athletes literally were told it was 'vitamin shots' by a coaching staff and team doctor they had to obey in order to remain on the national team and give their families a better life within that country.

So strict liability in its own way is supposed to protect athletes because it will discourage coaches and doctors from effectively treating them as lab rats without their consent when it comes to what goes into their bodies.

 

[Draculus]

If only it were that easy because I would believe Kamila 100% if she testified that she had no idea what she was being given. So it should end there. If only... But thinking about it, if it is determined it was her coaching team that was responsible and not her and so she gets to compete and wins, many worry that that will set the precedent for the resultant pile of "It was my coach, give me my OGM" and get away with it. What they really need to do, and we'll see how well-liked Eteri actually is, is suspend Eteri from coaching for four years. I can't imagine the powers that be in Russia are at all happy with Eteri, because it is likely possibly because of her that she has brought shame to her country. If Eteri gets suspended for four years, I don't think we'll be seeing any other coaches trying to get away with doping and using that excuse again. A successful coach doesn't want to lose their career. When the COACH is the 'doper', THEY are the ones who should be punished. And if a coach of Eteri's stature is banned for four years, I just don't see any coach ever thinking of risking their career doping their students. At least that's how i see it.

But on what grounds Eteri can be banned? If ppl follow 'dura Lex, sed Lex' in one part they shall follow it everywhere, so there should a reason. And twitter/another site opinion is not a legitimate ground.
I think there is nothing about 'coach is fully responsible for all doping violation made by a minor' in WADA code.

So how you can justify Eteri ban? Legally, not 'I wish for'?

 

[yume]

please understand that this way of thinking
is what keeps these kind of problems in sport alive.

Not wanting to be surprised or disappointed is what motives this kind of thoughts.
I'm glad if everyone else is clean. I wouldn't bet on it though.

 

[Zora]

There was just a (very dramatic) TV report on this topic on ARD in Germany. Some interesting points were:
If Kamila will be acquitted in the future and they didn't let her compete, they took her the chance to win Gold. And if someone confessed to have doped her (and this is what the journalist expects), she could very well be acquitted. So this could speak for letting her compete.
Another interesting point was, that the team doctor apparently has also developed a method to dope with xenon and doesn't think it's prohibited.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

What is the evidence TMZ is not given during competitions? TMZ has a short half life. We are seeing dramatic stamina turnarounds between short programs and long programs. TMZ could be taken after a short program and clear before a long program AFAIK. Plus, dopers often use other substances to disguise doping.
In other words, I wouldn’t assume some favorite skaters aren’t doping during competitions.

Even the hypothetical effect of trimetazidine, which has been discussed many times earlier in this discussion, does not suggest an immediate effect. This drug should be taken in long courses, for several weeks two or three times a day - then, theoretically, endurance can increase.

Taking trimetazidine once between the short program and FS is absolute nonsense. There is no effect, and testing will immediately show doping. The "half-life" has nothing to do with it, traces will remain in the body for a long time - it's not even days, rather weeks.

 

[Draculus]

What is the evidence TMZ is not given during competitions?

Clean tests after competition.

TMZ has a short half life.

From 4 to 16 hours. Long enough to be captured.

And, btw, what is the evidence that TMZ is not used by all other competitors?

 

[KaliM]

But on what grounds Eteri can be banned? If ppl follow 'dura Lex, sed Lex' in one part they shall follow it everywhere, so there should a reason. And twitter/another site opinion is not a legitimate ground.
I think there is nothing about 'coach is fully responsible for all doping violation make by a minor' in WADA code.

So you can justify Eteri ban? Legally, not 'I wish for'?

Since Kamila is a minor, won't there be an investigation towards WHO gave her TMZ if it is determined it was not accidental/medical/tampered with? Whoever that person is need to face some consequences, even her parents if they had knowledge. But these are a lot of 'ifs' and we probably won't know for weeks/months

 

[moonvine]

I just want to point out to those of you pointing out that this drug isn't 'proven' to be performance enhancing, it isn't going to ever be PROVEN to be performance enhancing because to prove this you'd have to set up a control group as well as a group of healthy young people who would need to take this DANGEROUS DRUG that can PERMENANTLY IMPACT YOUR HEART. No one is going to get permission for such a study; such a study would be supremely unethical. Therefore yes, the basis on which it is banned is 'theoretical' and based on what the drug is known to do and how it is known to act in the body. They can't very well give it to 3000 healthy people in their teens and 20's and see what happens just to determine if it should be on a banned substance list for professional athletes, when no professional athlete would have any credible reason to use this drug anyway.

Thank you!

 

[Draculus]

Since Kamila is a minor, won't there be an investigation towards WHO gave her TMZ if it is determined it was not accidental/medical/tampered with? Whoever that person is need to face some consequences, even her parents if they had knowledge. But these are a lot of 'ifs' and we probably won't know for weeks/months

I do agree that this person has to follow consequences. But are we following 'presumption of guilt' here? Or 'presumption of innocence'?
And why this person is Eteri? And not f.e. Putin? He could have ordered it, why not?

 

[el henry]

Clean tests after competition.

From 4 to 16 hours. Long enough to be captured.

And, btw, what is the evidence that TMZ is not used by all other competitors?

They didn’t test positive.

In any event, not a defense. If I had a nickel for every time some one said to me
1. Joey down the street does it and
2. Joey down the street never got caught and
3. why are you just picking on me, you hate me, you’re not going after Joey down the street.

I’d have a lot of nickels. (I was an attorney enforcing federal labor laws, why I’m so hung up on procedure)

None of those things matter if you were the one who can be proven not complying with the law, then you are the one who must answer for your actions. Joey down the street is irrelevant.

 

[Mista Ekko]

---

 

[skated011]

I do agree that this person has to follow consequences. But are we following 'presumption of guilt' here? Or 'presumption of innocence'?
And why this person is Eteri? And not f.e. Putin? He could have ordered it, why not?

any logic has been thrown out of the window. this thread has become a conspiracy crackpot. I doubt he even has time he's busy with the meeting with Germany and France to deflate the Ukraine crisis.