Kamila Valieva: Anti-doping Case and Follow-ups

[KaliM]

I do agree that this person has to follow consequences. But are we following 'presumption of guilt' here? Or 'presumption of innocence'?
And why this person is Eteri? And not f.e. Putin? He could have ordered it, why not?

So far I'm trying to follow no presumption (having my opinions aside), but usually the simplest answer is the truth. Even if Putin ordered it ... he gave the order to who? If this wasn't accidental, at least ONE person close to her did it, coach, parent, doctor etc
I don't think we'll have any answer on that for a long time IF an investigation is launched, unless CAS announces smth alongside the decision regarding the suspension tommorow

 

[flipsydoodle]

Clean tests after competition.

From 4 to 16 hours. Long enough to be captured.

And, btw, what is the evidence that TMZ is not used by all other competitors?

That means skaters can take TMZ right after the short program and they'd be clear....

Other competitors are not under discussion here. Only a Russian skater has tested positive.

 

[flipsydoodle]

Even the hypothetical effect of trimetazidine, which has been discussed many times earlier in this discussion, does not suggest an immediate effect. This drug should be taken in long courses, for several weeks two or three times a day - then, theoretically, endurance can increase.

Taking trimetazidine once between the short program and FS is absolute nonsense. There is no effect, and testing will immediately show doping. The "half-life" has nothing to do with it, traces will remain in the body for a long time - it's not even days, rather weeks.

What is your evidence (science-based, peer reviewed) for these sentences? They look to me like they contain misinformation, but are stated as facts.

 

[florin]

It's been well established this drug lets the skaters train longer, harder, and with more repetitions. If kamila isn't the only one using it for training, it only makes sense that overtraining = increased risk of injury.

It's not "well established" - this is an assumption that does not have a strict evidence base and has a debatable nature (WADA included TMZ in the doping list using its monopolistic position, which allows it to choose the point of view it needs in a debatable issue).

But most important that this theoretical construction whose construction logic came from sports such as athletics, swimming, etc. In these sports, the limiting factor is the work of the heart during prolonged exertion and muscle recovery - TMZ supposedly helps with this. In figure skating, this is not a limiting factor cuz - a) you will start falling from 100% quads much earlier than you will have problems with heart endurance, b) injuries are the second important limiting factor. Eteri said that she controls the number of quads that the girls perform.

In the distorted world of rumors and speculation, TMZ turned into direct doping that directly increases endurance - relatively speaking, for some reason everyone decided that if Makar Ignatov took TMZ before skate, he would stop "dying" at the end of FP and finish it without panting. This is nonsense.

 

[chuckm]

She is the victim but allowing her to skate is not the way to ensure that others won't be victimized. Quite the opposite, in fact. If you don't want others to be victimized, the adults responsible for this must suffer and they must see that doping athletes doesn't reap rewards. Plus, she's not the only victim. All the clean athletes will be victimized if an individual who had training advantage due to an endurance drug is allowed to win an event.

It's a tragedy and despite all the noise here trying to blame the journalist, random dark figures, and WADA, the ones responsible for this are clearly her doctors and coaching them. They caused the tragedy!

That means skaters can take TMZ right after the short program and they'd be clear....

Other competitors are not under discussion here. Only a Russian skater has tested positive.

TMZ is not available in every country. The US doesn't have it because it hasn't gotten FDA approval.

 

[florin]

Regarding the half-life of drugs - this means the half-life of the drug in the blood. You can't calculate or conclude from that time, how long metabolites of that drug will be present in the urine.

Well, apparently at least 45 days (from 25 Dec to 8 Feb), no?

 

[Draculus]

That means skaters can take TMZ right after the short program and they'd be clear....?

Half-life to 4-16 hours means that concentration drop by a factor of 2 in 4-16 hours.
So fi we take average (10 hours) after 3 days (72 hours) concentration drops by a factor of 2^7.2 = ~150.

Other competitors are not under discussion here. Only a Russian skater has tested positive.

During Olympic - no one. Or I'm lost, what competition and what skater are we talking about?
If Kamilla and RusNats in Dec 2021 - she had TMZ so no point of discussing does she have it or not. If somebody else or Kamilla at another competition - clean tests are the proof.

 

[millie]

What people seem to forget that doping is doping and no ifs ands or buts about it. TMZ is a banned drug and we may never know how it got into her system. No excuses in the world is going to ease the mind of the other skaters, that it is a level playing field for all the skaters. Sympathy goes out to all involved, the minor if it’s true and to all the other skaters that will be competing with her. Fair is Fair. No matter how it got in her system, it’s still banned and in her system. Russia has gotten away with doping for years and it’s time for them to pay, if not it will continue. If they get away with this, it’s telling our youth that it’s ok to cheat and as long as you win. Does winning mean that much that they would sacrifice the health of a young girl..

 

[flanker]

The CAS mobile panel meeting on Valieva's case has been going on for 4.5 hours. It can last all night​

Заседание выездной панели CAS по делу Валиевой длится уже 4,5 часа. Оно может затянуться на всю ночь

Заседание выездной панели CAS по делу допинга Валиевой длится уже 4,5 часа и может затянуться на всю ночь — новости Олимпиады 2022 в Пекине

www.sports.ru

 

[Draculus]

What people seem to forget that doping is doping

Today I learnt that doping means nothing.
See https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/t...ersy-update-12-feb.90942/page-95#post-2932578

 

[florin]

The CAS mobile panel meeting on Valieva's case has been going on for 4.5 hours. It can last all night​

Заседание выездной панели CAS по делу Валиевой длится уже 4,5 часа. Оно может затянуться на всю ночь

Заседание выездной панели CAS по делу допинга Валиевой длится уже 4,5 часа и может затянуться на всю ночь — новости Олимпиады 2022 в Пекине

www.sports.ru

I'm pretty sure that they would crush Kamila. Because how to prove that it was unintentional contamination after almost two months? It would not be easy even a few days after December 25, and most likely just impossible two months later. The only thing that can be rested on is that there was a time violation of the procedure. But I think for the Russians such a feint will not work. Russians are deprived of their rights.

 

[Mista Ekko]

The CAS mobile panel meeting on Valieva's case has been going on for 4.5 hours. It can last all night​

https://www.sports.ru/figure-skatin...lu-valievoj-dlitsya-uzhe-4-5-chasa-.html[/URL

Holy crepe, is there gonna be a public protocol for this?

 

[TontoK]

Holy crepe, is there gonna be a protocol for this?

The length of the hearing is evidence of nothing except the participants are taking this issue seriously, and the panel is giving adequate consideration to the evidence and statements of all parties.

Considering the magnititude of the case... what it means for this girl, for the other competitors, for Russian sports, for the Olympic movement... I'd have been shocked if they had reached a quick and easy resolution.

 

[Mista Ekko]

The length of the hearing is evidence of nothing except the participants are taking this issue seriously, and the panel is giving adequate consideration to the evidence and statements of all parties.

Considering the magnititude of the case... what it means for this girl, for the other competitors, for Russian sports, for the Olympic movement... I'd have been shocked if they had reached a quick and easy resolution.

I would love to read ALL of it

 

[solani]

That means skaters can take TMZ right after the short program and they'd be clear....

Other competitors are not under discussion here. Only a Russian skater has tested positive.

No, the metabolites in the urine could be present longer. I wasn't able to find out how long.

Well, apparently at least 45 days (from 25 Dec to 8 Feb), no?

It's funny, because there are certain substances that dissolve over time in stored urine.
But I meant the metabolites that are produced in the liver and kidneys. Anabolic steroids often have a short half-time of a couple of hours, but the metabolites can be in the urine for weeks.

 

[moonvine]

they may had to take chance as Kamila was destined to be the star of whole ogm 2022. name other athletes other countries will know. I can't and I'm not even Russian

Hanyu. Chloe Kim. Honestly the X games type events are more popular than figure skating broadly. Figure skating is a niche sport in most countries (not Russia or Japan).

 

[Alchamei]

I only hope CAS does not allow Kamila to skate, as much as some of you might think she is just a minor and was doped by her parents or coaches, first we don't know for sure, she might be taking it herself with the help of doctor as improprobable as it sounds, but mainly and also as others have said, it would be unfair to other clean competitors that would get their opportunity for Gold stolen. I hope justice wins, and that Russia in general will get harsh punishment, since they have a history of doping and this is icing on the s... cake for them. They had a chance to compete with their athletes that weren't accused of doping and blew it.

 

[silveruskate]

Well, I had a suspicion that something is inherently rotten in WADA but have no idea to what extent.
Just read WADA code:

Any 2 from a list of 3, where 1 of 3 is 'determination'.
So, basically to add anything to prohibited list they need
'Medical or other scientific evidence, pharmacological effect or experience' that something (substance of method) may(in theory) help
AND
Their own 'determination' that use of 'method' 'violates spirit of sport'. Basically purely subjective opinion that something 'is a sin'.

F.e. listening to music, massage even sex can be defined as doping as soon as ppl in WADA have 'determination' that it's a sin.
And all of these things I mentioned above definitely 'has a potential to enhance', from my experience.

Actually for me WADA 'doping' and 'prohibited list' completely lost any credibility.
Basically it is a list of things that 'potentially can improve performance' and some guys think that it's a sin, nothing more.

It's also your subjective opinion that a drug needs to also be harmful and not just performance enhancing to be illegal. I like the view that no performance enhancing drugs that aren't naturally found in food should definitely be banned. Different ways to look at it I would say.

 

[skated011]

The CAS mobile panel meeting on Valieva's case has been going on for 4.5 hours. It can last all night​

Заседание выездной панели CAS по делу Валиевой длится уже 4,5 часа. Оно может затянуться на всю ночь

Заседание выездной панели CAS по делу допинга Валиевой длится уже 4,5 часа и может затянуться на всю ночь — новости Олимпиады 2022 в Пекине

www.sports.ru

Hanyu. Chloe Kim. Honestly the X games type events are more popular than figure skating broadly. Figure skating is a niche sport in most countries (not Russia or Japan).

I'm talking amongst Russian athletes. name another name asude from Kamila that has been sensational at these games

 

[skatedreamer]

from a NY Times article:

Yet while the hearing was taking place, several members of the news media were surprised to receive an email from an I.O.C. official that included a video of an interview with the head of the Russian Olympic Committee that was played during the hearing. In the clip, which was described to The New York Times by a person who had viewed it, the Russian official, Stanislav Pozdnyakov, slammed the handling of Valieva’s sample by the Russia anti doping agency’s Swedish testing partner.

Sharing the clip was extremely unusual; the I.O.C. and the Russian Olympic Committee are on opposing sides in the case. The video outlining an aspect of Russia’s defense in the hearing appeared to be the only one shared by the I.O.C. with members of the news media.

This selective leaking -- if that's what it really is -- seems very odd. Hard to imagine why the IOC would do such a thing.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/12/sports/olympics-medals-winter?name=styln-beijing-winter-olympics&region=hub&block=storyline_live_updates_block_recirc&action=click&pgtype=LegacyCollection#kamila-valievas-cas-hearing-doping