Kamila Valieva: Anti-doping Case and Follow-ups

[kan01]

What I find incredible is Eteri implying that if indeed there is doping, it is only by Kamila's choice and action. By saying Kamila is "innocent and clean" and she "stands by her". The nerve of this woman... She did not say, Our team is innocent and Kamila is clean and that she stands by herself and her team. NO, she stands BY KAMILA as if she could be the only one guilty, not the freaking adults!

 

[skatedreamer]

I have an issue with this. Because with drugs that also can't be used out-of-competition how long until the athlete doesn't have an unfair advantage? Otherwise indefinite ban since there's always the lingering advantage. It is up for debate. If it's without her knowledge then what has happened to Kamila is child abuse. I don't like the idea of punishing her to prove a point to others.

I absolutely hate it but those are the rules. Also, it's unfair to the other skaters. It's also incredibly tragic that Kamila probably won't get another shot at the Olympics, if recent history is any guide. The ET team doesn't seem to believe in longevity.

Kamila is the innocent victim here. Whether she skates in the FS or not, her name will always be associated with this horrible situation.

 

[flipsydoodle]

There was just a (very dramatic) TV report on this topic on ARD in Germany. Some interesting points were:
If Kamila will be acquitted in the future and they didn't let her compete, they took her the chance to win Gold. And if someone confessed to have doped her (and this is what the journalist expects), she could very well be acquitted. So this could speak for letting her compete.
Another interesting point was, that the team doctor apparently has also developed a method to dope with xenon and doesn't think it's prohibited.

IMO this is an unlikely scenario.
I would venture to bet that the reason there is firm ground behind the appeals is that the positive has already been confirmed, i.e. by the B sample. I would speculate that the confirmation (test result from the B sample) came before the medal ceremony. And that that's why ISU ITA and IOC are on firm ground in filing an appeal. I don't think they could do that based on an A sample.
I would guess that the A sample result was available soon ofter the December competition and was hushed up in Russia, but Eteri's team knew about it. They likely had no control over when exactly the B sample would verify the results and the drugging become public in what was supposed to be their moment of glory.
IMO the skating community has very little experience talking about doping, how it works, how drugs are periodized, the appeal process, etc. etc. etc., so much of what I read in this case shows lack of familiarity. I wish there were more technical and medical experts weighing in on skating news coverage just to help discussion along. By contrast, in track and field, posters in chat rooms are very knowledgeable about all this stuff! They live with this information every day and are able to dissect minutiae.

 

[Mista Ekko]

How much legal credit will they give to that something could have happened to the sample in 6 weeks? A lawyer would make that case in a courtroom here in America and to be honest it would be hard to have that sample is the sample legitimized legitimized after 6 weeks and traveling to various cities.

Do you think their lawyers will try to rule the sample as ineligible?
That would sound pretty American to me

 

[lariko]

How much legal credit will they give to that something could have happened to the sample in 6 weeks? A lawyer would make that case in a courtroom here in America and to be honest it would be hard to have that sample is the sample legitimized legitimized after 6 weeks and traveling to various cities.

So long as the chain of custody is documented and there were no violations of CoC, 6 weeks turn around time is not a problem. Samples are preserved to be used and analyzed for a long time without deterioration.

 

[Draculus]

From what is effectively an outlet for the IOC-

Valieva entourage investigation as coach defends "innocent and clean" athlete

The entourage of teenage figure skater Kamila Valieva are set to be investigated by the World Anti-Doping Agency following her positive drug test, as...

www.insidethegames.biz

'investigation' - sure. If investigation shows something - then based on these facts X (whoever it was) can be banned.
But X, not Eteri.
Wishing to ban Eteri right now does not align with investigation.

 

[flipsydoodle]

No, the metabolites in the urine could be present longer. I wasn't able to find out how long.

It's funny, because there are certain substances that dissolve over time in stored urine.
But I meant the metabolites that are produced in the liver and kidneys. Anabolic steroids often have a short half-time of a couple of hours, but the metabolites can be in the urine for weeks.

IMO this is why news organizations should be providing technical and medical experts...to talk about stuff like metabolites, half life, etc. The skating community is blowing bubbles in the dark on this stuff.

 

[flipsydoodle]

So long as the chain of custody is documented and there were no violations of CoC, 6 weeks turn around time is not a problem. Samples are preserved to be used and analyzed for a long time without deterioration.

We also don't know if there was a 6 week turnaround for Sample A. It could have been a few days. It might be Sample B that has become an issue in the Olympics: it would verify Sample A findings.

 

[flipsydoodle]

So long as the chain of custody is documented and there were no violations of CoC, 6 weeks turn around time is not a problem. Samples are preserved to be used and analyzed for a long time without deterioration.

IIRC sample can be tested 10 years later under IOC/WADA rules. So, yeah, degradation is not an issue.

 

[Draculus]

What I find incredible is Eteri implying that if indeed there is doping, it is only by Kamila's choice and action. By saying Kamila is "innocent and clean" and she "stands by her". The nerve of this woman... She did not say, Our team is innocent and Kamila is clean and that she stands by herself and her team. NO, she stands BY KAMILA as if she could be the only one guilty, not the freaking adults!

Very good example of whatever Eteri said - she's THE EVIL.
She is ba-a-aad, baa-aaa-aad.

It does not matter what she said (included nothing) - there are always people who would read into her words (even silence) whatever they want.

 

[lariko]

The most common problems with samples are stuff like the sample was improperly collected, stored, preserved; lab duplicate shows concentrations of the substance analyzed that are significantly different; chemistry shows sample cross-contamination; the detected quantity is too close to call because of the method detection limit (i.e. if concentration breaks guideline by simply being detected, and detected quantity is so small that the method’s resolution can’t guarantee if it is a yes or no). If lab results are in question, that’s what is being discussed, as well as CoC is scrutinized and the specifics of the substance exceedance in question. They probably called in Subject Matter Experts who would be pouring over the lab data. If they could dismiss it on an easy technicality like a break in the CoC (say sample came into lab at a wrong temp or they can identify a clear disconnect in CoC) they would absolutely try that. But lab itself wouldn’t release a sample with questionable CoC. Its own QA/QC should call the sample invalid before they call the test positive.

 

[Sjs5572]

A separate thread has been set up to support Valieva. How bout a thread to support the athletes who have been cheated out of medals due to doping?

 

[Scott512]

Do you think their lawyers will try to rule the sample as ineligible?
That would sound pretty American to me

Of course they will try to do that and it happens In our court cases quite often.
I can see the Russians building a case that something happened to this urine sample of KVs in the 6 weeks it was not tested. They should have the rights to make that challenge and have it listen to and taken seriously. Of course that will only annoy the IOC and ISU and they may look to make a severe suspension against this girl. They are playing Russian roulette with her career

 

[msteach3]

They are playing Russian roulette with her career

No surprise there.

 

[Mista Ekko]

A separate thread has been set up to support Valieva. How bout a thread to support the athletes who have been cheated out of medals due to doping?

We better not go there quite yet,
but they will deserve a whole monument.

 

[florin]

The main thing in this matter is the mechanism of action of trimetazidine. You can follow any of the links and see how it is formulated in medical terms. I can describe this mechanism more simply:

1) When the heart "gets tired" due to high loads or due to age, negative processes are triggered in it. As a result, "garbage" accumulates, a positive feedback is formed - and the heart tissues wear out even more significantly over time.
2) Trimetazidine blocks the chemical process that creates "garbage". As a result, the amount of this "garbage" decreases over time due to natural metabolism.
3) Freed from the influence of "garbage", the tissues of the heart are gradually restored. During the recovery process, it is required that the concentration of trimetazidine does not decrease.

I hope you understand that such a process requires a much longer time than the break between the short program and the FS.

I can tell you that only amphetamines or something even worse, such as microdoses of strychnine or cocaine, can actually be suitable for an immediate strong effect.

quotes from the article (bold is mine):

"A randomized study showed that TMZ therapy at a dose of 20 mg 3 times a day for 15 days improves the contractility of the heart muscle at rest, and also reduces the severity of its ischemic dysfunction observed during dobutamine stress echocardiography"

"It was found that in combination therapy with TMZ and nitrates, β-AB, AK lasting 4 weeks the duration of the treadmill test, the total volume of the load, the time before the appearance of ST-segment ischemic depression and anginal pain significantly increase, and the need for nitroglycerin significantly decreases."

I have been telling that people for the second day that this drug should be used systematically and for a long time. But they just ignore these remarks. They already have their own comfortable world with the magic pill that Valieva took at the Russian Championship and thanks to which she is so amazing

 

[Draculus]

A separate thread has been set up to support Valieva. How bout a thread to support the athletes who have been cheated out of medals due to doping?

Why are you asking about it here? Go, create it.

 

[silveruskate]

I absolutely hate it but those are the rules. Also, it's unfair to the other skaters. It's also incredibly tragic that Kamila probably won't get another shot at the Olympics, if recent history is any guide. The ET team doesn't seem to believe in longevity.

Kamila is the innocent victim here. Whether she skates in the FS or not, her name will always be associated with this horrible situation.

Are they the rules? The rules say anything from a reprimand to 2 years....and we already have an example of Raducan not banned at all. Sun Yang for 3 months as an adult taking Trimetazidine. Sergeeva had her provisional suspension lifted, also a Trimetazidine case.

If Valieva has shown no Significant Fault or Negligence I wonder what the justification for a long ban would be. And in this specific provisional suspension case we know how late the sample was tested. Valieva could have appealed and been acquitted if they tested her sample in time.

 

[kan01]

Very good example of whatever Eteri said - she's THE EVIL.
She is ba-a-aad, baa-aaa-aad.

It does not matter what she said (included nothing) - there are always people who would read into her words (even silence) whatever they want.

Maybe I wouldn't read so much into it if Eteri wouldn't have blamed her students in her interviews in the past, including saying Evgenia was too heavy when she actually was at her lowest, as only one example . But it's normal for her team, Daniil does the same every chance he has. Adults blaming kids.

 

[whatif]

The Russian boards are now full of rumours that she lost her case and will be removed from competition in the next hours.