Kamila Valieva: Anti-doping Case and Follow-ups

[Fanof]

It all depends on how you view the issue. If the legal, formal side of the issue is most important to you, this is one thing. But there is also a factual side. Everything that I have unwittingly read about trimetazidine in recent days points to only one thing - in fact, in reality, this medicine does not give any benefits in sport. To simplify - the drug allows you to increase endurance in people who experience heart problems. If a person is healthy, then the drug is useless. Therefore, it is wrong to say that Russian girls deprived someone of medals.

The fact that the fact of taking trimetazidine is a violation of WADA rules, I do not argue. It's just that this violation, whether it was made or not, in itself could not ensure Kamila's victory or somehow contribute to this victory.

Well, WADA should have been asked questions about their banned substance lists. Meldonium causes especially big doubts.

It's really silly to take the risk of being caught for a drug with no benefits...

 

[McBibus]

at least one of my point was dealt with : having an extra skater in the free skate.

the rest : sad for all the athletes who are deprived from their very special olympic moment....
Honest question to ROC supporters : how do you feel about Sasha and Anna being deprived of their olympic moment if they were going to podium? There are always repercussions. I believe the IOC is not happy with the CAS decision, and they found a way to hit hard.

I support the girls not ROC, but if we are talking about feelings then let's forget the rules and just use reasoning.
For the rules Anna and Sasha have nothing to do with Kamila's positivity, in my feelings based on my reasoning about it it's not so simple.
Also for the rules it does not matter who takes doping but only who test positive (the rest is just gossip/speculation) but we are not judges on the antidoping commission.

How do I feel:
If Anna and Sasha will be deprived of their olympic moment they should not look inside the rink (where Kamila skates) but outside the rink where the adults managing Kamila do their work
Additional problem: It's the same adult managing them, so should we consider them really "different" or just not so unlucky like Kamila was?

As of Kamila, she should probably detach the blades from her skates and make a good use of it.
Someone ruined her life and I'm honestly (and somehow suprisingly) more interested in knowing who is really responsible than about the competition and the ruling on Kamila herself.

However we feel we should feel and be symphatetic to everybody
Kamila
Anna and Sasha
All the other olympics skater (the most since they have nothing to do with it)

Reasoning (this reasoning excludes incidental contamination because should it be proven so there is no doping scandal at all):

TMZ
* the life of the drug is short so it shuold have been taken few days before december 25th.
* it is not a long term advangate drug like steroyds
* a one time use of the substance is pointless (unless done on competition day) and even that seems not useful
* Most probable usage is systematic to push the resistance limit during hard training

Kamila
* a 15 year old girl does not DO doping: she is doped by some adult around her; we can only discuss how aware she could be
* Are her parents with a personal doctor doping Kamila on their own volition? Most likely NO
* Are the Team or the Fed doping Kamila? Likely YES

Likely Hypothesys: TT/FED is doping Kamila during training in a systematic way to enanche training performance

Kamila & TT/FED
* if there is just one skater in the world that did not need to use doping to have a better preparation to olumpics that skater is Kamila.
by december (when the GP final was canceled) she already established a total dominance over the competition with her worst international scoring superior to the international personal best of her main rivals, so Kamila should play it safe taking no risk, while the risk should be took by her rivals to close the gap
* According to the previous hypothesis IF TT/FED dopes Kamila that was the clear front runner, the other skaters that were in a fight for an olympic place were subject to the same training support program. The more in the race the likes is to be in it

Conclusions
* Most likely Anna and Sasha who were the primary TT candidates for the olympic team underperforming until rusnat because of injuries/other problem were on the same support training program Kamila was
* Likely all the top TT girls/man/coples did take the same drug until they were considered contenders
* There is no indication it could be an entire FED issue.

I know it's long but to explain how I feel that is how I look at it, 'cause I did not just want to say "Anna and Sasha were like under the same sustance" without an explanation over such affirmation.

@gsk8 please edit the post removing the reasoning part if it considered too speculative.
That was not the intention: the interntion was just to explain why I feel that way

 

[GGFan]

It all depends on how you view the issue. If the legal, formal side of the issue is most important to you, this is one thing. But there is also a factual side. Everything that I have unwittingly read about trimetazidine in recent days points to only one thing - in fact, in reality, this medicine does not give any benefits in sport. To simplify - the drug allows you to increase endurance in people who experience heart problems. If a person is healthy, then the drug is useless. Therefore, it is wrong to say that Russian girls deprived someone of medals.

The fact that the fact of taking trimetazidine is a violation of WADA rules, I do not argue. It's just that this violation, whether it was made or not, in itself could not ensure Kamila's victory or somehow contribute to this victory.

Well, WADA should have been asked questions about their banned substance lists. Meldonium causes especially big doubts.

How is WADA on trial here? They've done many questionable things but the list isn't among them. The list is always fluid, that is as more scientific information comes forward substances can be added or removed. This is all very difficult because you cannot ethically do studies on some of these things.

Everyone who competes signs up to abide by the list. I wasn't buying this argument with Sha'carri and I'm definitely not buying it now. Meldonium use also coincidently overlapped with very successful competitive periods for Tukt and Sharapova so please miss me with it not doing anything.

 

[flanker]

I'm so disappointed right now. It's Russian women and their amazing achievements that made me a skating fan and it seems some of it was all a lie. Actually it was because of skating that I started learning Russian too.
Unfortunately I can imagine that many of them were/are doping, it's just Kamila who got caught. This decision was not the right one and it will be extremely unfair for the skater who will come 4th and she might be awarded her medal in the mail (or not at all). I feel for Kamila, because she's a victim too, but she shouldn't have been allowed to skate.

Apart from what @Alex Fedorov has written. I think that even the deepest "concerned people" are aware that what Kami (and Anya and Sasha, definitely) went through the last week was one hell. It is completely possible that in their current state even their best abilities and mental strength won't help them. It is perfectly possible they would fail entirely, which, for many people here, will mean the higher justice, but not for me. To me in this situation it is just what Anna have said at the press conference after the Russian Nationals: My task is to skate, there are others to decide.

 

[Flutzel]

This whole debacle is an interesting example case in public opinion management which would be fun to watch if it didn't involve a minor. The Valieva story is currently on the front pages of both CNN and BBC online. If she wins a medal, which she most likely will, with that positive test in no way expunged, every headline outside of Russia is going to be along the lines of "ROC skater Valieva wins gold medal among unresolved doping issues", likely with added mention in the article that the likely silver and bronze medalists are under the same team with the same coach and same doctor. To casual watchers, she's going to be a poster child for what many already consider a thoroughly broken, corrupt system - the doping athlete caught while she wasn't even allowed to skate under her country's flag because of that country's doping issues. She may be celebrated in Russia for a bit, but she'll likely get set aside for a less problematic skater as soon as possible - it's not like the officials care about her as a person. On top of that, she won't even get a ceremony as a memory to keep.

I understand that by their own rules the CAS probably had to allow her to skate (I'm not sure how that somehow makes them less responsible for that decision as some seem to imply, considering they made those rules and didn't find them in an ancient tomb as decrees from an old god). I don't think they've done the poor girl a favour. She could have been a tragic victim of her coach's actions, and realistically that's abolutely what she is, but discourse is fickle and the tone is already shifting. The more injustices are done to other skaters through this, like team skaters and other ladies medalists now not even getting a medal ceremony essentially because of her positive test, the less sympathy is going to be left for her. This is not fair, but it's also extremely predictable. What a mess they put her in.

 

[brakes]

Sorry, that I did not meet your expectations. Yes, I am triumphing about this small victory because I believe that there is no doping case - trimedazine is no doping and a microdoze in just 1 sample means that it was not a course. Therefore, Kamila's results have nothing to do with this situation and "clean athletes" should be safe knowing that they do not compete against someone with clear pharmalogically driven advantage.

That's one point. The second one. I appeal one more time (and I think it's the last time) to your logic because some of your posts are plain illogical. I just think it's because of emotions - I do believe that in general people are not evil per se - they sometimes are just too emotional. You wrote "gloating" with respect to Anya and Sasha. Have not you forgot that they are Eteri's students too? Do you really believe that TT conspired a convoluted tiramizine based plot to bring Kamila to the Everest of figure skating even at the expense of other Eteri's students? And now clean and innocent Anna and Sasha have to compete against a "dirty cheater"?

Don't you even consider a scenario that there was no doping in Kamila's case and she faces such an immense pressure of "witch hunting" for no reason?

Don't you remember Kamila's test skate?



Does she looks there like, as you name her, GOAT?
Then suddenly her form exploded, she started to beat records, plus after cancelling GPF, she gets two months of training in Moscow, after which she'd been tested positive for trimetadizine. Why microdoze? Most likely because they were using it in cleverly, in non-competitive period to boost her training process.
Can't you really see the difference between Anya, Sasha and Kamila, how long Sasha and Anya wiped the ice before they were able to regularly land the quads? How long was the process in comparison to Kamila?
Don't you recognize how Eteri has much more influence on newcomer 15yo Kamila and her mom, than on Anya, established 18yo World Champion and her financially secured family or rebellious Sasha and her strong father, who both already dared to publicly oppose Eteri and leave?
You must understand younger, dependent Kamila is much safer bet for Eteri's future income from shows, contracts and competitions after the Olympics. Just imagine 18yo adult Sasha or Anya become beloved and worshipped Olympic Champions - what really keeps them in that group anymore?
You know how that group function at the junction of public and private - Eteri must make it 'work' for all interested: feds, Sambo officials, coaching staff, athletes, herself. Advertisements of "Team Tutberidze" on the bands of public rink, TT caps being sold on private paid shows, trademarks of public school sport group, come on, what is this?
Most of knowledgeable fans know how it works, we "live and let live others", tolerating all of that amazed by her professionalism in her work, successes and what she's done for Russian figure skating overall but the moment of doping in 15yo girl must be a wake-up call.
Deep there I hope it is for you too.

 

[Zora]

Someone ruined her life and I'm honestly (and somehow suprisingly) more interested in knowing who is really responsible than about the competition and the ruling on Kamila herself.

Who ruined her life... she will probably be an Olympic gold medalist in a few days and they will just find a culprit, probably the team doctor will sacrifize himself, he already has experience with that. Or they will blame the Swedish lab or claim she has to take this certain migraine medication, they have time to prepare a story now. She couldn't care less what the international skating fans think of her, she will get all the benefits in her home country and probably be even considered a hero, because of the circumstances.
I wonder how Anna and Sasha feel about this situation, if they are truly clean.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

The idea that some people are pushing that the drug doesn't do anything absolutely blows my mind.

1. They are lying about the evidence. It provides benefits during training... which LEADS to benefits in competition.
2. WADA defines that not internet trolls, and they have defined that it is doping.
3. Obviously Eteri's team thinks it does something. Why would they give something to skater that they know is illegal and could get them banned if they thought it had no effect?

Its absolute insanity.

Well, I insist that the drug "does nothing." But this is the wrong wording, it should have been written like this: "does not give an advantage in sports."

However, I didn’t really understand what Internet trolls had to do with it and what evidence I was lying about, but that’s not the point.

It's just that I more or less carefully read the results of studies that reveal the mechanism of action of the drug and the results of its use. I already wrote about this yesterday, but I can briefly repeat:

1) When the heart wears out, one of the results of this is the launch of abnormal biochemical processes, the accumulation of "garbage" (free radicals, in particular).
2) Under the influence of "garbage", the wear of the heart accelerates, as a result, the abnormal biochemical process becomes even more intense. This is called positive feedback.
3) Trimetazidine blocks the abnormal biochemical process, which allows the heart to gradually clear itself of "garbage" and recover to a large extent.

So, in a healthy person, this most abnormal biochemical process does not dominate even without trimetazidine, it simply does not need to be suppressed. For such an anomalous process to dominate, it is not enough just to get very tired in training, you need to seriously ruin your heart.

So yes, trimetazidine increases stamina - you just don't need to understand by this that someone trains for 12 hours instead of four. This simply means that a person with a weak heart will be able to climb stairs more confidently after three weeks of therapy, for example.

 

[Scott512]

CAS Rules: Kamila Valieva will compete in Beijing

The wait is over regarding the doping controversy that has rocked the 2022 Winter Olympic games for Russian figure skater Kamila Valieva. The 15-year-old

www.goldenskate.com

The "Doping Controversy" thread was closed and moved to the "General Info" area of the Olympic sub-forum for reference.

Wow that's the explanation of the century! An almost 6 hour 50 minute explanation fitting for a 6 hour 50 minutes CAS emergency meeting.

To me the most important sections of this detailed explanation from CAS were 2C and 2D.

 

[Wafflecakes]

Who ruined her life... she will probably be an Olympic gold medalist in a few days and they will just find a culprit, probably the team doctor will sacrifize himself, he already has experience with that. Or they will blame the Swedish lab or claim she has to take this certain migraine medication, they have time to prepare a story now. She couldn't care less what the international skating fans think of her, she will get all the benefits in her home country and probably be even considered a hero, because of the circumstances.
I wonder how Anna and Sasha feel about this situation, if they are truly clean.

Going to be honest.

I feel like discovering Kamila was an alien from another world all along is more likely than her being the only athlete at that camp on the drugs.

For me if they decide she is guilt it is pretty much settled for in my mind that they are all on the same meds.

 

[Wafflecakes]

Well, I insist that the drug "does nothing." But this is the wrong wording, it should have been written like this: "does not give an advantage in sports."

However, I didn’t really understand what Internet trolls had to do with it and what evidence I was lying about, but that’s not the point.

It's just that I more or less carefully read the results of studies that reveal the mechanism of action of the drug and the results of its use. I already wrote about this yesterday, but I can briefly repeat:

1) When the heart wears out, one of the results of this is the launch of abnormal biochemical processes, the accumulation of "garbage" (free radicals, in particular).
2) Under the influence of "garbage", the wear of the heart accelerates, as a result, the abnormal biochemical process becomes even more intense. This is called positive feedback.
3) Trimetazidine blocks the abnormal biochemical process, which allows the heart to gradually clear itself of "garbage" and recover to a large extent.

So, in a healthy person, this most abnormal biochemical process does not dominate even without trimetazidine, it simply does not need to be suppressed. For such an anomalous process to dominate, it is not enough just to get very tired in training, you need to seriously ruin your heart.

So yes, trimetazidine increases stamina - you just don't need to understand by this that someone trains for 12 hours instead of four. This simply means that a person with a weak heart will be able to climb stairs more confidently after three weeks of therapy, for example.

You literally have no evidence to back any of this up.

Once again. Eteri would not give this medication if she did not think it gave an edge, and WADA agrees. Unless you are saying that Eteri is also stupid, which I somewhat doubt. Evil? Yes. Stupid? No.

Everything else is fluff and noise.

Hell even in a hypothetical universe where the drug did nothing for athletes... it would change nothing because it is still on the list of substances athletes agree not to take and they broke that agreement.

 

[WeakAnkles]

I have to hand it to them - the sheer stupidity of the decision is jaw dropping. Why not just hand out syringes instead of medals?

Well see ya women. No point in watching at all.

 

[Joe Mendoza]

 

[Lzbee]

I will quote myself for an answer:

While raising the age limit doesn't prevent doping of minors, neither does allowing them to skate while under suspicion of doping. At least, right now, they say they're doing an investigation into the matter but I wouldn't be surprised in more changing of the rules regarding minors after this incident.

 

[Scott512]

Who ruined her life... she will probably be an Olympic gold medalist in a few days and they will just find a culprit, probably the team doctor will sacrifize himself, he already has experience with that. Or they will blame the Swedish lab or claim she has to take this certain migraine medication, they have time to prepare a story now. She couldn't care less what the international skating fans think of her, she will get all the benefits in her home country and probably be even considered a hero, because of the circumstances.
I wonder how Anna and Sasha feel about this situation, if they are truly clean.

I think Anna Sasha and KV are probably all mentally and physically worn down and I doubt we will see anything close to their best in the ladies competition.

I doubt anyone will think Kami is a hero for testing positive for a banned substance. I think some people are upset with how she's being treated. Some people here don't seem to think Kamila deserves legal representation in this matter when all accused do deserve that including violent criminals who harm people.
But as a minor athlete she gets treated as a minor athlete according to the ioc rules.

 

[Jungle2]

Don't you remember Kamila's test skate?



Does she looks there like, as you name her, GOAT?
Then suddenly her form exploded, she started to beat records, plus after cancelling GPF, she gets two months of training in Moscow, after which she'd been tested positive for trimetadizine. Why microdoze? Most likely because they were using it in cleverly, in non-competitive period to boost her training process.
Can't you really see the difference between Anya, Sasha and Kamila, how long Sasha and Anya wiped the ice before they were able to regularly land the quads? How long was the process in comparison to Kamila?
Don't you recognize how Eteri has much more influence on newcomer 15yo Kamila and her mom, than on Anya, established 18yo World Champion and her financially secured family or rebellious Sasha and her strong father, who both already dared to publicly oppose Eteri and leave?
You must understand younger, dependent Kamila is much safer bet for Eteri's future income from shows, contracts and competitions after the Olympics. Just imagine 18yo adult Sasha or Anya become beloved and worshipped Olympic Champions - what really keeps them in that group anymore?
You know how that group function at the junction of public and private - Eteri must make it 'work' for all interested: feds, Sambo officials, coaching staff, athletes, herself. Advertisements of "Team Tutberidze" on the bands of public rink, TT caps being sold on private paid shows, trademarks of public school sport group, come on, what is this?
Most of knowledgeable fans know how it works, we "live and let live others", tolerating all of that amazed by her professionalism in her work, successes and what she's done for Russian figure skating overall but the moment of doping in 15yo girl must be a wake-up call.
Deep there I hope it is for you too.

It is the beginning of the season. Sorry the season had not even started YET. Nobody even watched test skates until recently. These tests are only important as they can see the programmes on the ice.

 

[Joe Mendoza]

 

[Alchamei]

What did Yuna say?

 

[Tomadeur]

While raising the age limit doesn't prevent doping of minors, neither does allowing them to skate while under suspicion of doping. At least, right now, they say they're doing an investigation into the matter but I wouldn't be surprised in more changing of the rules regarding minors after this incident.

That would be definetly necessary imho.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

The problem with this kind of reasoning is that it reads as "WADA is wrong with their banned substance list, it's okay if an athlete uses one of these drugs"
While the athletes who want clean sport observe all the rules from WADA and avoid all the prohibited substances, no matter what they are.

There cannot be interpretation of the WADA rules... they have to be followed strictly.

no, it should be read like this (preliminarily assuming that Kamila systematically took trimetazidine, which is not proven): "Without trimetazidine, Kamila would have shown the same results as with it."

That is, in fact, she will still remain the best. When you talk about the moral suffering of other skaters, for some reason you do not take this fact into account. And skaters will know that the medal was actually received not by them, but by lawyers. Is such a victory valuable?