Kamila Valieva: Anti-doping Case and Follow-ups

[drivingmissdaisy]

Who is the 25th participant allowed to compete?

There are 30 women skating the SP. Usually 24 would advance to the LP, but this time a 25th will (unless Kamila finishes outside the top 24).

 

[Dr. Jenn]

This statement has probably been discussed already in this long thread. I just had a chance to see it.

My immediate reaction:
In the interest of fairness to Valieva, the IOC is being drastically unfair toward the other athletes. It sucks not to be able to enjoy the Olympic medal ceremony, at the actual Olympics, in the moment. Luckily for the team event medalists, they at least were able to celebrate with their on-ice flower ceremony!

Who is the 25th participant allowed to compete?


Dignified? Seriously? Nothing about any of this is at all dignified. Nor is it fair for the other medal-winning athletes to be forced to wait until after the Olympics to participate in deserved medal ceremonies because officials are bending over backwards to protect a minor who btw has not been protected at all under the existing conditions in her coach, Eteri's, training camp.

The 25th participant is just for the free skate. Prior to this whole situation, 24 would have proceeded to the free skate, but they are allowing one extra skater, in interest of fair play

 

[YagsFan]

Huh? Valieva is the biggest star of this moment for her star Russian coach, Eteri. If Eteri knows nothing about a banned substance found in one of her prized skaters via routine testing and/or had 'minimal' involvement, then that actually does imply that Eteri is rather foolish, and not in charge of her own skaters, as well as lacking in the ability to manage her own training and coaching operation.

Another huge factor in all of this is that Valieva is one of the most talented athletes Eteri has ever had. Valieva had no need to be given any banned drugs for any reason whatsoever! Let her train hard naturally, the old-fashioned way. And then let her talent simply take over in competition, without all the OTT demands, tensions, and gimmicky bells and whistles which simply detract from her sublime skating. The drug in no way could enhance Valieva's talent and her ability to perform well. If it was supposed to help her recover from physical exhaustion faster in order to be pushed to unnatural limits in training, that's a completely foolish way of training, which is long-term harmful to Valieva health-wise! And now, also harmful to Valieva's reputation, and to her career.

Your comment ironically tells on Eteri! You're saying Eteri wouldn't risk her own reputation for an athlete! What do you mean exactly? Eteri has achieved her so-called 'reputation' because of her athletes! If Eteri was actually a responsible coach, she would be more concerned about her skaters' careers, health, and reputations, instead of obsessed with her own standing in the sport!

It sounds like you're saying Eteri wouldn't be directly involved (only 'minimally' involved) because there are so many others available to replace Valieva? Duh! That's contradictory and makes no sense, as I said, because 'commodity' Valieva IS (or was) Eteri's money athlete of the moment -- the one most likely to win Olympic gold. Any drug intervention obviously would have taken place precisely because they try to push athletes to the limit, with apparently no real concern for their health and well-being. And if Eteri has so many athletes available (as she does) to take Valieva's place, then an argument could be made that Eteri doesn't care about the push for drug intervention because it might work in Eteri's favor, if (as they seem to think) the harsh push in training that the drug enables might add something to 'throwaway' star Valieva's chances. It didn't and it doesn't.

In fact, it seems to me now that this whole 'drug' situation could be one of the reasons why Valieva never seemed to be fully enjoying herself in competition. There was always a nervous look on her face, and a lot of tension, which appeared to affect her enjoyment in skating, despite her sublime abilities (which were also detracted from by the wardrobe gimmicks, etc.). After her winning performances, Valieva just seemed to be relieved rather than fully satisfied or happy with her accomplishments.


Exactly!!!

Blissfull,

You say that Valieva always has a nervous look, and just looks relieved after a good skate, not satisfied or happy------I have thought for a long time, like back to Julia----that this is true of all her girls. I have always had the impression watching them come off the ice that they can't even smile until they gauge Eteri's reaction The girls' affects remind me of what people say about gymnastics ---that those girls look nervous and tentative. I've never wanted to think that of figure skating . . .

 

[Dr. Jenn]

Another aspect to consider is how very differently this situation would have played out if the skater in question was, say, a 20th-ranked skater from a country like Peru.

 

[Mista Ekko]

Personally, I have no way of knowing whether drugs are being given to Eteri skaters or not. But one thing I´m quite sure of: Eteri and her team does not consist of idiots. That is not the picture I have gotten from them, LOL. Valieva (and other skaters, too) has been clean in all her competitions including GP, 2022 Europeans and the Olympics, except at 2022 Russian Nationals. IF drugs are being used they have known exactly how to handle them without being detected at tests or they have not used them at all. This one time positive result is a mystery and I´m waiting for more info after the Olympics as the matter will be handled.

Well, if this introduction of her telling the grandfather story is real I can see it two ways:

1) she told this story and it's the truth - in which case If they allowed a situation like this I would actually
consider it quite idiotic indeed, or in fact premeditated, and if it might've been consumed from a secondhand glass
of a known TMZ user (is that even possible with this substance) then in consistency with past cases she should be
banned for a short period of time with titles revoked, or whatever minor leniencies we're about the find out about.

2) she told the story but it's as fake as it sounds - in which case if someone makes up stories in front of
committees like that I'm definitely gonna suspect them of doping or being doped and told to lie, and be
very suspicious of anything else they or their team says.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

The 25th participant is just for the free skate. Prior to this whole situation, 24 would have proceeded to the free skate, but they are allowing one extra skater, in interest of fair play

Oh, now I get it. 25 will advance to free skate, instead of 24. Identity to be determined after sp competition results. Thank you.

 

[McBibus]

And yet, I guess they just didn't think Kamila was good enough to do it on her own (or doping is so deeply ingrained as normalised into the mindset of her coaches that the thought of not doing it never even occured).

My reasoning leads to your latest theory.
To give Kamila doping late in this season, once she did already established her dominance means it is a systematic team approach.
It's most probable usage (push further in traning) is also choerent with the team philosophy.
So I think it's widespread, unless of course it is Valieva Family affair, but i don't believe it really.

What it's stranfe and does not fit with an use during full traning and stop before competition is that the positiviti seems to be from the FS (if I got the dates right) and this means a big miscalculation of the off time.
Also if she's been tested after SP and got clean it would indeed be very strange and not choerent with a systematic usage both on her part alone or on the whole team.

 

[Mirunna]

I find it funny or better saying absurd the suggestion that she should retire. Before the athletes left for Beijing Putin himself whised them good luck. Kamila took the word and spoke on behalf of the athletes and thanked the president for his support, as well as coaches, including medical staff. She and Putin carried out a 1:1 conversation and he adressed her directly and she promissed in front of her country to win as many medals as she can for Russia (the clip is on youtube). She was visibly emotional and had an entire speech prepared in front of her.
In such post comunist system athletes do not have a lot to say. She will skate because she has no choice even if she would want to withdraw. I don’t think that she even realises that she should have a say in all of this.
Romanian’s gymnastics team was similarly handled for many years, training controlled entire by the state with the sole purpose to win medals. Since the state paid for everything the parents pretty much went with the flow and everyone looked away at all abuse stories that started to emerge in last couple of years. Athletes were basically property of the state.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Another aspect to consider is how very differently this situation would have played out if the skater in question was, say, a 20th-ranked skater from a country like Peru.

Thank you for pointing this out.

Jessica Calalang and Sha'Carri Richardson had some things to say on Twitter regarding this ruling vs how their individual banned drug-related cases were handled. They make excellent points.

Illinois Skater Calls ROC Doping Scandal ‘Triggering' After Her Own Suspension in Cosmetic Debacle

Jessica Calalang knows all too well the feeling of an Olympic future hanging in the balance over a positive drug test, but with the Illinois figure skater's now-cleared case dramatically altering her 2022 Winter Olympic dreams, she finds the Russian Olympic Committee's latest doping scandal...

www.nbcchicago.com

 

[Mista Ekko]

Oh, now I get it. 25 will advance to free skate, instead of 24. Identity to be determined after sp competition results. Thank you.

Yeah in case Valieva gets retroactively removed from the event,
a person wouldn't have been left out of the getting to do the FS.

 

[Mista Ekko]

Another aspect to consider is how very differently this situation would have played out if the skater in question was, say, a 20th-ranked skater from a country like Peru.

We don't really have a way of knowing that though,
so I would avoid basing anything on that for now.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

So to me, there were would be incentive to dope athletes who should some talent for the big tricks, to make sure they recover quickly enough to train more and more and more and secure these elements earlier and better. It seems that a race against time would favour the use of substances.

Hmmm. I'm not sure I agree with your reasoning. It would need to be proven via experimental studies. I don't see above-board athletic studies ever being conducted on banned substances. It's better to look toward diet, exercise, lifestyle, or to advances in preventive physical therapy methods.

In any case, whether or not what you surmise accurately amounts to 'incentive to dope,' is neither here nor there because it is illegal to dope! For good reasons!

 

[Jaana]

About the use of grandpa´s glass: Actually I don´t find that so strange as it may sound to many. In my childhood and in teenage I saw something like to happen often in various families among family members... I did not like that habit as I was not used to it, but I sure noticed it. I could well imagine something like it to happen even in today´s Russia.

 

[solani]

I found a source for you. Actually, there are many sources, but this one is a bit easer to understand than others owing to chemistry data involved. This source is footnoted to peer-reviewed science journals.

The half life of TMZ is 7.81 hours for a young person. 11+ for an older person. The tests were on 35 mg tablets, as far as I can tell.

Trimetazidine: Uses, Interactions, Mechanism of Action | DrugBank Online

Trimetazidine is a piperazine derivative indicated as an adjunct therapy in symptomatic treatment of stable angina pectoris.

go.drugbank.com

Later edit: 7.81 years changed to 7.81 hours. Brain fart.

Thanks!
The connection to the creatinine clearance is interesting as well, but logical. If your kidneys don't work properly, the the clearance will take much longer. The half-life ist the value in the blood, we need the clearance value.
I'm just not smart enough to do the calculation. I don't know what I should do with the Liter/hour value. Is it even liter? I'm used to ml for Milliliter, not mL...

trimetazidine clearance was 25.2 L/h

 

[Mista Ekko]

About the use of grandpa´s glass: Actually I don´t find that so strange as it may sound to many. In my childhood and in teenage I saw something like to happen often in various families among family members... I did not like that habit as I was not used to it, but I sure noticed it. I could well imagine something like it to happen even in today´s Russia.

This is not any regular family, this is a person who is in the top of their sport internationally, and her and
the entire team around her would and should be aware of anything she cannot do, and specifically
in training camps as strict as the one Eteri runs, they'd probably be aware of anything she eats and drinks anyways,
so it's hard to believe they would come close to jeopardising their great efforts by putting her in a situation
where shoe could knowingly have traces of this substance in her system.

 

[Mafke]

a person who is in the top of their sport internationally

Who is... how old again? Her status as an athlete is secondary to her age in terms of awareness of micro-traces of generally safe substances.

If the sport will have elite competitors who are that young and the doping rules include micro-traces of generally safe substances.... then the only truly safe solution is to have a 24 drug advisor following them around and checking what lip balm they're using (for example).....

 

[4everchan]

This is not any regular family, this is a person who is in the top of their sport internationally, and her and
the entire team around her would and should be aware of anything she cannot do, and specifically
in training camps as strict as the one Eteri runs, they'd probably be aware of anything she eats and drinks anyways,
so it's hard to believe they would come close to jeopardising their great efforts by putting her in a situation
where shoe could knowingly have traces of this substance in her system.

it's also been said in this thread that TMZ doesn't dissolve in saliva or water but lower down the system... so ... i have a hard time believing that's even possible, even if she had been near her grandpa who apparently likes in Kazan... not exactly next door to Moscow or SPB.

 

[solani]

I think we see figure skating with old eyes. Maybe 20-30 years ago, doping was not in the culture for figure skating... but I am not so sure doping is "not that useful" in figure skating at this point... Considering how the sport has evolved, it has become a highly physically demanding competition. It's pretty much gymnastics on ice PLUS intense cardiovascular activity. Powerful skating is needed for a long 4 minutes. Watching speed skating, 4 minutes is pretty much the length of a 3000 meter event. Of course, the skaters do not go at full speed always.. but then, they also spin and jump... On top of that, great posture and flexibility are required, which require more off-ice training. Considering how skaters breathe heavily after a routine, yup... it is an extremely demanding sport.

If there are a lot of skills required that cannot be learned without natural talent, coordination and dedication, I would easily argue that with a lot of training, these skills can be mastered earlier and better. Also, considering that the jumps need to be done at a much younger age, it does require an extreme regimen which implies the ability to recover easily.

So to me, there were would be incentive to dope athletes who show some talent for the big tricks, to make sure they recover quickly enough to train more and more and more and secure these elements earlier and better. It seems that a race against time would favour the use of substances.

There is an incentive. I read a couple of times, that the "benefits" of f.e. steroid use can last years, or even a lifetime. Our body responds to so many things, and when the muscle mass ist built earlier, maybe too early, this has consequences. Bad and good, long and short term. The GDR doctors and coaches were most successful with the girls ... it's incredibly sad, but it's a fact.

 

[Mafke]

to be clear.... I tend to doubt the grandather's glass story (it is feasible, i think, but.....)

But current rules require unnatural levels of physiological monitoring that I find completely inappropriate when applied to minors.

The situation is a toxic training infrastructure working in tandem with a toxic monitoring regime... it stinks.

 

[Mista Ekko]

Who is... how old again? Her status as an athlete is secondary to her age in terms of awareness of micro-traces of generally safe substances.

If the sport will have elite competitors who are that young and the doping rules include micro-traces of generally safe substances.... then the only truly safe solution is to have a 24 drug advisor following them around and checking what lip balm they're using (for example).....

And uncertainties caused by unlikely situations as this one are exactly why they've been shortening bans
after investigations, but still applying them in the first place.