Kamila Valieva: Anti-doping Case and Follow-ups

[Mista Ekko]

That doesn't matter.

"Doping" is ingesting a banned substance. It is banned. If apple pie is a banned substance, and I am proven to have eaten apple pie, I am a doper. After the fact "oh it doesn't really help" does not relieve one from the duty to not ingest it.

Jumping off and not directed at your post, (although it may address some of the issues)

1. TMZ doesn't really help performance : irrelevant to whether the athlete ingested it.

2. No reason/motivation: irrelevant to whether the athlete ingested it.

3. They can't be that stupid: really? Someone came up with the gem that is Grandpa's Glass

4. Everyone else does it/all these other athletes got off: irrelevant to whether this athlete ingested it.

And yes, I will repeat myself every ten screens or so, just for good measure.

If Kamila is found to have a defense to the positive test after a hearing, then she is not a doper. If she does not, then she is. ETA: At this point, she was allowed to participate procedurally, but nothing has been proven to contraindicate the positive test. So as of now, she did "dope".

Mod, can we please replace the warning attached to this thread with this text?

 

[Alchamei]

Well question for you (and I hope this doesn't violate the speculation thing of this thread), unlike the rhythmic gymnastics situation - here the second place finisher that could be given gold based on Valieva being stripped of a medal is going to be a Russian, and based on today, if Valieva isn't flawless they may pump up a Russian skater to place over top of her. What do you think happens then as its another Russian ?

I think both will be heroes in Russia. As it has happened with the Raducan doping scandal, when the Gold was given to another Romanian Amanar. All of them were celebrated in their homecountry.

 

[HisShadowBG]

That doesn't matter.

"Doping" is ingesting a banned substance. It is banned. If apple pie is a banned substance, and I am proven to have eaten apple pie, I am a doper. After the fact "oh it doesn't really help" does not relieve one from the duty to not ingest it.

Jumping off and not directed at your post, (although it may address some of the issues)

1. TMZ doesn't really help performance : irrelevant to whether the athlete ingested it.

2. No reason/motivation: irrelevant to whether the athlete ingested it.

3. They can't be that stupid: really? Someone came up with the gem that is Grandpa's Glass

4. Everyone else does it/all these other athletes got off: irrelevant to whether this athlete ingested it.

And I will repeat myself every ten screens or so, just for good measure.

If Kamila is found to have a defense to the positive test after a hearing, then she is not a doper. If she does not, then she is.

So she competes now and defends herslef later why all the outrage and attacks on her(her team) now then?

“It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer.”

 

[el henry]

So she competes now and defends herslef later why all the outrage and attacks on her(her team) now then?

“It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer.”

Personally, I have not attacked anyone, so I cannot speak to that.

I do care about protecting the innocent. I am concerned about the innocent athletes, who have not tested positive, who are competing against an athlete who has tested positively for a banned substance.

 

[matin calin]

If you were using this type of medicine for treatment, you would have been advised by your doctor not to crush it, cut it, or divide it in any other way as then it is losing its therapeutic effect and I assume, achieving this effect would be the main reason for you to take it in the first place. So you would not have done it as you'd have no reason to.

Well, dividing the tablet was not recommended to me by my doctor. I have to take sleeping pills every now and then, 5 mg is making me feel drowsy the next day while 2.5 works perfectly, this is why I am cutting it in halves. Some people crush all their tablets since they are unable to swallow chunky ones or dissolve capsules in water etc.

Look I am not trying to defend the grandpa version which, as far as I know, has not been made official yet. I am just trying to hypothesise why CAS chose not to dismiss that line right away as absurd and totally unlikely, and allowed her to skate.

 

[Amei]

So they are apparently allowing Valieva to not do the press conference which is leaving Shcherbakova and Kaori to have to respond to the journalists.

Shcherbakova has been politically correct, Kaori has been diplomatic but not exactly restrained

 

[Mista Ekko]

So she competes now and defends herslef later why all the outrage and attacks on her(her team) now then?

off the top of my head:

It creates a dangerous precedent in the Olympic movement.
It puts the interest of one athlete over an entire sport.
It is inconsistent with set standers everyone it subjected to.
It is demoralising to athletes and sports fans.

so even if the decision was made right now to make no decision due to the loophole of her age in this situation
and the unique timing, you can at least understand and respect that a lot of people would be outraged over this,
and i don't know anything about any attacks on her.

 

[Pantsu]

That doesn't matter.

"Doping" is ingesting a banned substance. It is banned. If apple pie is a banned substance, and I am proven to have eaten apple pie, I am a doper. After the fact "oh it doesn't really help" does not relieve one from the duty to not ingest it.

Jumping off and not directed at your post, (although it may address some of the issues)

1. TMZ doesn't really help performance : irrelevant to whether the athlete ingested it.

2. No reason/motivation: irrelevant to whether the athlete ingested it.

3. They can't be that stupid: really? Someone came up with the gem that is Grandpa's Glass

4. Everyone else does it/all these other athletes got off: irrelevant to whether this athlete ingested it.

And yes, I will repeat myself every ten screens or so, just for good measure.

USADA announced today that Jamie Brown, of Oceanside, Calif., an athlete in the sport of Paralympic triathlon, has tested positive for a prohibited substance, which was determined to have been ingested by him without fault or negligence. As a result, Brown will not face a period of ineligibility for his positive test

“If an athlete ingests a prohibited substance from a completely innocent source, such as contaminated medication, meat, or water, and there is no effect on performance, there should not be a violation or a public announcement,” said Travis T. Tygart, Chief Executive Officer of USADA. “We have now had 26 of these tragic no-fault cases since 2016, and the injustice keeps happening. How many more athletes will suffer and resources will be wasted before we, as a WADA community, reform the system to be more fair, effective, and efficient?”

U.S. Paralympic Triathlon Athlete Jamie Brown Accepts Finding of No Fault - LawInSport

Press Release 29th October 2020 USADA announced today that Jamie Brown, of Oceanside, Calif., an athlete in the sport of Paralympic triathlon, has tested positive for a prohibited substance, which was determined to have been ingested by him without fault or negligence. As a result, Brown will...

www.lawinsport.com

Oh, really?
You see, "injustice keeps happening".

 

[Mista Ekko]

So they are apparently allowing Valieva to not do the press conference which is leaving Shcherbakova and Kaori to have to respond to the journalists.

Shcherbakova has been politically correct, Kaori has been diplomatic but not exactly restrained

I can understand it, but they should've not held the press conference at all,

Wasn't there a big issue in Tennis where Osaka suffered because she bailed on press conferences
citing mental issues?

 

[Magill]

Well, dividing the tablet was not recommended to me by my doctor. I have to take sleeping pills every now and then, 5 mg is making me feel drowsy the next day while 2.5 works perfectly, this is why I am cutting it in halves. Some people crush all their tablets since they are unable to swallow chunky ones or dissolve capsules in water etc.

Look I am not trying to defend the grandpa version which, as far as I know, has not been made official yet. I am just trying to hypothesise why CAS chose not to dismiss that line right away as absurd and totally unlikely, and allowed her to skate.

So obviuosly your sleeping tablet is a different type of medicine. They are not all the same, you know. If someone is not able to swallow, their doctor would not give them a medicine that needs to be swallowed to even work, would just give them a different medicine. It is not obligatory to take this type as it is s a very peculiar beast

 

[vorravorra]

It depends whether the discovery was the substace itself or her metabolite (which was how I understood it originally but I can be wrong). In the first variant it would be probably weird (though even if the pill is dissolved in the intestine doesn't mean it is not distributed into the rest of the body), in the second one it could be possible that the metabolites got into the salivas (not saying it is it, as I am no physiologist, but there are plenty of substaces that create metabolites that can be found everywhere in the body).

So while it does not have to sound convincing, there are other weird causes (like "it got into me via my partner's fluids").

TMZ is excreted by the kidneys unchanged, not as metabolites.

 

[Mista Ekko]

“We have now had 26 of these tragic no-fault cases since 2016, and the injustice keeps happening. How many more athletes will suffer and resources will be wasted before we, as a WADA community, reform the system to be more fair, effective, and efficient?”

Oh, really?
You see, "injustice keeps happening".

Go for it I say, make the system better and more efficient
and politick to change some rules that you find wasteful and tragic.

 

[Sloopy]

If anyone should be offended that their Olympic moment may be stolen, it would be Sakamoto. Gubanova, please, if she finishes in 10th place, that's a lot.

It doesn't really matter where she places, she's allowed to express her feelings and opinions. In most countries, we have the right of free speech and expression. This is the problem with how people think, its not that they may expect to win a medal but that the process leading up to the competition is not on a fair playing level. She's angry because of the effort she has put in preparing, and being drug free. For most athletes, its not about the end result.

 

[Amei]

Special treatment, I can understand it, but it still is just that, they should've not held the press conference at all,

Wasn't there a big issue in Tennis where Osaka suffered because she bailed on press conferences
citing mental issues?

Apparently its only required to attend the press conferences when medals are awarded - so guess that means she won't be required to do any since no medals will be awarded if she is on the podium.

 

[Mista Ekko]

Apparently its only required to attend the press conferences when medals are awarded - so guess that means she won't be required to do any since no medals will be awarded if she is on the podium.

Interesting, fair enough.

 

[lariko]

So true. If Kamila was not disqualified and sent home immediately then there must have been a legal ground not to resort to such measures. I am sure that this was analysed extensively during that 7 hour hearing, which essentially is a trial.

Provisions (or lack thereof) in whatever document that do not allow sending Kamilla home and CAS decision are also sources of law that should be respected. Just as much as the list of banned medicines which is oh so holy for everyone on here.
Or was she supposed to be kicked out of competition even if the current set of rules does not allow it?

Hearing is not a trial. They very carefully (understandably) defined the scope of the hearing, as they had to, and the scope was very much limited to jurisdiction. The conclusion of the hearing was for the most part that the hearing commission had no authority to remove Valieva under this specific set of circumstances. The only other thing they established was that Valieva is not at fault for notification occurring at this time. Seven hours is a short hearing, heh. For something of this magnitude, it’s like a preliminary conversation.

 

[4everchan]

Hearing is not a trial. They very carefully (understandably) defined the scope of the hearing, as they had to, and the scope was very much limited to jurisdiction. The conclusion of the hearing was for the most part that the hearing commission had no authority to remove Valieva under this specific set of circumstances. The only other thing they established was that Valieva is not at fault for notification occurring at this time. Seven hours is a short hearing, heh. For something of this magnitude, it’s like a preliminary conversation.

It pretty much went like this : "Hello, How are things, We heard you have a problem?" Let's talk about it in a few weeks... "

 

[Amei]

https://news.yahoo.com/kristi-yamaguchi-talks-frustration-over-154647751.html

 

[el henry]

USADA announced today that Jamie Brown, of Oceanside, Calif., an athlete in the sport of Paralympic triathlon, has tested positive for a prohibited substance, which was determined to have been ingested by him without fault or negligence. As a result, Brown will not face a period of ineligibility for his positive test

“If an athlete ingests a prohibited substance from a completely innocent source, such as contaminated medication, meat, or water, and there is no effect on performance, there should not be a violation or a public announcement,” said Travis T. Tygart, Chief Executive Officer of USADA. “We have now had 26 of these tragic no-fault cases since 2016, and the injustice keeps happening. How many more athletes will suffer and resources will be wasted before we, as a WADA community, reform the system to be more fair, effective, and efficient?”

U.S. Paralympic Triathlon Athlete Jamie Brown Accepts Finding of No Fault - LawInSport

Press Release 29th October 2020 USADA announced today that Jamie Brown, of Oceanside, Calif., an athlete in the sport of Paralympic triathlon, has tested positive for a prohibited substance, which was determined to have been ingested by him without fault or negligence. As a result, Brown will...

www.lawinsport.com

Oh, really?
You see, "injustice keeps happening".

OK, again for the people in the back:


1. if an athlete, AFTER a hearing, is found to have ingested a substance by accident, for which they tested positive, then under the rules, they can compete.

2. an athlete who is under a provisional suspension is NOT permitted to compete. They have NOT proven that they took the substance by accident.

3. Lifting a provisional suspension does NOT prove that the athlete is, to use a term that doesn't really apply here, "innocent". It means they are not subject to what in American civil law would be a TRO or PI.

4. From what I can tell, for the provisional suspension, this is a strict liability scheme. For the protection of the other, *provably* innocent, athletes. There is no requirement for a full blown hearing for a provisional suspension. Because the equities favor protection of the other, provably innocent, athletes. Now, the CAS did not follow that here, as far as I can tell, with no precedent (and I do not claim to have any particular expertise in this area), and lifted the provisional suspension.

There may be a gazillion trillion examples of athletes who after hearings were determined to have accidentally ingested banned substances. That has nothing to do with this case, ETA: unless those athletes were claiming to have ingested TMZ accidentally by drinking from Gramps' glass.

Le Sigh.

 

[Ares]

Valieva should not be allowed to skate the SP. Case closed.