Do falls ruin artistry for you?
- Thread starter moonvine
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- Oct 20, 2017
I don't think falls ruin artistry, but it ruins the flow of the routine and should be punished much more severely IMO...
However, what does ruin artistry is the constant overemphasis of "quads" and tricks that are supposedly "harder tricks", it's pretty much ruined artistry...not enough emphasis is put on excellent skating skills and execution of elements...skaters can now put in 8 quads and fall on all of them and still get a better technical score than someone that does supposedly easier elements done with high quality...IMO, technical scores are worth too much in this system...technical score and component score should be worth the same...and falls should be punished more harshly...in other sports, once you fall, you are basically out of medal contention...that's the way it should be...
I went on a bit of a rant, but that's because the overemphasis of rewarding more difficult tricks whether done well or not is what is ruining artistry...
However, what does ruin artistry is the constant overemphasis of "quads" and tricks that are supposedly "harder tricks", it's pretty much ruined artistry...not enough emphasis is put on excellent skating skills and execution of elements...skaters can now put in 8 quads and fall on all of them and still get a better technical score than someone that does supposedly easier elements done with high quality...IMO, technical scores are worth too much in this system...technical score and component score should be worth the same...and falls should be punished more harshly...in other sports, once you fall, you are basically out of medal contention...that's the way it should be...
I went on a bit of a rant, but that's because the overemphasis of rewarding more difficult tricks whether done well or not is what is ruining artistry...
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
What falls do IMO, is destroy the flow and mood of a program. Remember when Maria Butyrskaya fell during her footwork in 1998 at Worlds. She was having a great program and then BOOM......I'll look for it. Here it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vq3nY97PwPY&t=32s
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- Jun 6, 2019
For me, these two skates illustrate the difference (of course exaggerated as I used polar opposite rather than 1 fall:
1)https://youtu.be/ttLgWh9Ky1Y
2) https://youtu.be/CplYlBikwZ8
Tell me which you preferred to watch from artistic standpoint.
1)https://youtu.be/ttLgWh9Ky1Y
2) https://youtu.be/CplYlBikwZ8
Tell me which you preferred to watch from artistic standpoint.
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- Feb 18, 2014
case in point: Jason Brown!
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- Oct 20, 2017
Right...because falling definitely shows off wonderful technique to the judges apparently and not properly executed jumps where you actually land...
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- Mar 5, 2004
If a skater falls very early in a program but recovers well & does everything else well, then, NO!
One case in point - Todd Eldredge's free skate @ the 2002 SLC Winter Olympics. He fell on his quad attempt early on, but everything else he did was, IMHO, just glorious! What a way to finish his Olympic eligible career!
One case in point - Todd Eldredge's free skate @ the 2002 SLC Winter Olympics. He fell on his quad attempt early on, but everything else he did was, IMHO, just glorious! What a way to finish his Olympic eligible career!
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- Feb 19, 2010
Not for me. Necessarily 
I think of a skating performance like a violin solo. You can have a performance with no noticeable errors, but emotionless, constantly a bit over or under in terms of pitch, and lacking in expression. Then you can have a brilliantly expressive performer who is bang on pitch-wise, hits all the runs, but then makes a noticeable mistake on one note. Who'd I rather listen to/watch? Well, if the rest of the performance is excellent, it's not the mistake that sticks with me.
I think of a skating performance like a violin solo. You can have a performance with no noticeable errors, but emotionless, constantly a bit over or under in terms of pitch, and lacking in expression. Then you can have a brilliantly expressive performer who is bang on pitch-wise, hits all the runs, but then makes a noticeable mistake on one note. Who'd I rather listen to/watch? Well, if the rest of the performance is excellent, it's not the mistake that sticks with me.
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- Feb 12, 2014
Not necessarily! Some performances can get away with it - for example, despite the fluke fall, Yuzuru's R&J in Nice remains one of my favorite skates from him.
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- Feb 14, 2018
No, it doesn't. Sasha Cohen has fallen in her programs, and I was always taken with the beauty of her skating.
Of course, I would think: "If she had just landed that jump/s, the program would've been perfect!" LOL
Of course, I would think: "If she had just landed that jump/s, the program would've been perfect!" LOL
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- Jun 11, 2012
I think it depends on the fall and how it impacts the rest of the program. But I do think falls should carry heavier weight than they seem to do now. I'm not of the Dick Button school of thought that says a fall takes that person out of the competition BUT it almost seems like URs are weighted heavier than falls sometimes.
Well, falls and underrotations often go together.
But comparing a jump where underrotation is the only problem but the skater lands on one foot, vs. a fall on a fully rotated jump...
The underrotation (< call) will lose 20% of the base value of the jump and GOE worth 20-30% of the base value (but might still get better than -2 if there are other positive aspects), so total point loss no more than 50% of the base value if that's the only error.
The fall will usually lose 50% of the base value and 1.00 off the total program score.
So slightly more penalty for the fall, but the higher value the jump, the closer the total penalty.
Downgrades (<<) will be punished more harshly -- significantly lower base value and then 30-40% of that lower value subtracted further.
However, the artistry would be reflected in the program components, not the TES and fall deductions.
There are now limits on maximum PCS if there are one or multiple falls in the program, but those only really apply to the top skaters because for a skater who wasn't getting 9+ PCS in the first place won't be affected by the required maximums.
Otherwise, how much judges take off the PCS they would have given is up to each judge's discretion. Some might tend to penalize more harshly than others for all falls. But generally it would depend on how disruptive that judge found each particular fall to be, rather than the mere fact that one occurred.
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- Jan 11, 2022
Not necessarily. It depends on the fall, how early it is in the program, and how well the skater recovers. For example, Mariah Bell had a fall on her 3-3 attempt in the short program. However, it was early, she recovered quickly, got right back into the flow and skated through it all with a lightness and sense of joy. I thought it was beautiful and I forgot about the fall pretty quickly. How she skated the rest of the program was magic.
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- Aug 12, 2014
I always think of Adam Rippon during the time (years?) he was including a quad lutz at the beginning of his FS. When he fell, he just leapt up again (gracefully, in my opinion), and always delivered the rest of the program so beautifully, with such musical expression and feeling, that I completely forgot about the fall, pretty much immediately. It was as if he took me on a journey that simply made the 'error' vanish.
So no, a fall doesn't automatically ruin the program for me, but it completely depends on whether the skater(s) can carry me away. Also, on the occasions when Adam didn't fall (usually just a negative GOE), it was fun, and sort of heart-warming that he kept raising the bar for himself. Because he wanted to; he wanted to strive for excellence, reach for the stars.
But 2 or 3 falls in a program -- anyone's -- are a completely different story. I find a splat-fest very disruptive and get to a point where I can't watch any more, unless the skater somehow rises above it. i.e.years ago, I watched that program of Janet Lynn's in Japan in 1972 when she kept falling, but smiled every time she got up, and kept going. Of course, her artistry was sublime; just watching her flow and movement was enough.
So no, a fall doesn't automatically ruin the program for me, but it completely depends on whether the skater(s) can carry me away. Also, on the occasions when Adam didn't fall (usually just a negative GOE), it was fun, and sort of heart-warming that he kept raising the bar for himself. Because he wanted to; he wanted to strive for excellence, reach for the stars.
But 2 or 3 falls in a program -- anyone's -- are a completely different story. I find a splat-fest very disruptive and get to a point where I can't watch any more, unless the skater somehow rises above it. i.e.years ago, I watched that program of Janet Lynn's in Japan in 1972 when she kept falling, but smiled every time she got up, and kept going. Of course, her artistry was sublime; just watching her flow and movement was enough.
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