Kamila Valieva: Anti-doping Case and Follow-ups

[el henry]

I like your squirrel analogy but I think you're overusing it a bit. I think the aspects samkrut brings up are relevant and surely will be considered in the main investigation. Btw even in the CAS decision re. her provisional suspension they refer to comparable cases (=other athletes) and discuss TMZ's possible effects on performance, so even from a strict legal perspective these matters are of interest, and we are on a figure skating forum.

I am overusing the analogy

If an athlete were permitted to relitigate whether a substance should be banned every time it appeared, the system would mean nothing. So I don't read the CAS decision that way.

Other athletes' TUEs have nothing to do with the decision.

The thread is about this decision, so I will stick to that.

 

[4everchan]

Btw, Kamila is back in Moscow. Dudakov flew back with her. Understandably, they made a quick escape at the airport.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CaH8qtUqdF4/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

that needed to happen about a week ago and you call that quick?

 

[noskates]

I'm not sure about the rest of you but when it comes to a discussion about what's legal and what isn't and legal definitions - I'd trust the lawyer!!!

 

[matin calin]

I'm not sure about the rest of you but when it comes to a discussion about what's legal and what isn't and legal definitions - I'd trust the lawyer!!!

Looks like there are several in this thread. Problem is that we are all limited to our own jurisdictions and sports law is a thing on its own.

 

[el henry]

I'm not sure about the rest of you but when it comes to a discussion about what's legal and what isn't and legal definitions - I'd trust the lawyer!!!

Well, I am trustworthy, no doubt

I do not pretend to know a thing about WADA other than what I read. I can only make analogies to what I do know.

And I said this about 100 screens back, but in my experience enforcing other statutory schemes (that and $3.00 will get you the NY Times)

1. You never sued Joey down the street and his employees do the same thing: irrelevant.

2. This safety regulation makes my employees less safe, they are much safer if they wear my helmets rather than the ones you approved: irrelevant.

3. I don't like your motivations, you hate me, you've always hated me, hater hater hater : irrelevant

We will see if WADA has the same standards in a full hearing.

 

[el henry]

I just wonder how the process of sample B is going to be handled. The potential embarassment to WADA if it is clean will be so big that, sorry, I don't trust them to do the test without a third party control.

There's a reason RUSADA is not allowed to do it. They've already been embarrassed.

ETA: But if there is *proof* that the samples were mishandled, and no, the CAS decision is not proof, then I am all for a third party handling the sample. Costs to be split, as typically happens.

 

[Ali81]

The more I think about this situation the awfulness and enormity of what has happened to Kamila becomes clearer. All of us who have been avidly following skating can see that she was a prodigy . No drug would have given her the qualities that made her so special. The flexibility, flow , carriage and incredible quads. I think any person taking an unbiased and unblinkered view of the situation holistically can see that. She was a wonder of the sport . To have her young life turned upside down so brutally in a matter of 10 days is simply diabolical. The scenes of her faltering in the free skate were really gut wrenching to watch . In essence , she was a sacrificial lamb who had to self immolate to rpotect the egos of adults around her on ALL sides of this debacle .I just hope she is getting serious support.

 

[Fanof]

How long do you think all this will last before we have the final hearing?
Because another consequence of the provisional suspension being lifted is that nothing prevents KV from competing. Even if she keeps skating for a couple of years, could she have retired before this mess is over?

 

[Shayuki]

I'd say it's pretty important that the substance hasn't been shown to actually give an advantage in performance, it's just a "maybe" and the way it was also forbidden was bordering on incompetent since it first was a stimulant but then they decided it's not a stimulant at all, making it feel like they have no idea what they're doing and just decided to ban the substance on a hunch. That's pretty different from using something that's clearly been demonstrated to actually increase performance in my opinion.

But yeah, I don't get why Valieva was even allowed to compete. She couldn't mentally be there with everything that was going on. It would have been far kinder to her to prevent her from competing.


As for the suspension, Sun Yang got suspended for a whole 3 months for this substance, and he was an adult and all. For Valieva as a "protected person" it should be less than that, I'd imagine.

 

[Fanof]

It's very interesting to think about how feelings evolved:
- ten days ago, when all this started, she was viewed an innocent victim harmed by obnoxious adults;
- when the lift was banned, she became the face of doping who had got an undeserved special favour;
- when it was said her grandfather might be the origin of the positive result, she became a ridiculed mix of a cheater and a liar, only to be virtually lynched on social networks and newspapers/websites;
- and yesterday, most felt so sorry for her - and it was heartbreaking indeed.
Public opinion is fickle...

 

[doreen95]

I'd say it's pretty important that the substance hasn't been shown to actually give an advantage in performance, it's just a "maybe" and the way it was also forbidden was bordering on incompetent since it first was a stimulant but then they decided it's not a stimulant at all, making it feel like they have no idea what they're doing and just decided to ban the substance on a hunch. That's pretty different from using something that's clearly been demonstrated to actually increase performance in my opinion.

But yeah, I don't get why Valieva was even allowed to compete. She couldn't mentally be there with everything that was going on. It would have been far kinder to her to prevent her from competing.


As for the suspension, Sun Yang got suspended for a whole 3 months for this substance, and he was an adult and all. For Valieva as a "protected person" it should be less than that, I'd imagine.

It is a banned substance regardless of its efficiency or whether its efficiency is debated or not. It is on WADA's banned list. Using it is against the rules. Full stop.

 

[el henry]

It's very interesting to think about how feelings evolved:
- ten days ago, when all this started, she was viewed an innocent victim harmed by obnoxious adults;
- when the lift was banned, she became the face of doping who had got an undeserved special favour;
- when it was said her grandfather might be the origin of the positive result, she became a ridiculed mix of a cheater and a liar, only to be virtually lynched on social networks and newspapers/websites;
- and yesterday, most felt so sorry for her - and it was heartbreaking indeed.
Public opinion is fickle...

I don't think so

Factually:
A banned substance was found. Typically, those with banned substances are subject to suspensions. Therefore, her participation should have been blocked, in my opinion.

Feelings:
For Kamila:
I don't know anyone, even people who feel as I do, who felt anything but sorry for Kamila. Even as we believed her participation should be blocked. I felt worse for her competitors, but of course I felt bad for her.

For her team:
If they had had the courage, they would have advised Kamila, for her own good, to withdraw, to go home, to ride this out with the support of friends and family. They didn't. They wanted shiny gold instead, for some reason a "sweep" was more important than a young athlete's health. Irreparable harm resulted from *that* decision and they alone are responsible.

Someone came up with "Grandpa's Glass". That person was subject to worldwide ridicule and still is. I doubt it was Kamila. Again, her team. not Kamila, was the target.

A very very sad business.

 

[[email protected]]

I'd say it's pretty important that the substance hasn't been shown to actually give an advantage in performance, it's just a "maybe" and the way it was also forbidden was bordering on incompetent since it first was a stimulant but then they decided it's not a stimulant at all, making it feel like they have no idea what they're doing and just decided to ban the substance on a hunch. That's pretty different from using something that's clearly been demonstrated to actually increase performance in my opinion.

But yeah, I don't get why Valieva was even allowed to compete. She couldn't mentally be there with everything that was going on. It would have been far kinder to her to prevent her from competing.


As for the suspension, Sun Yang got suspended for a whole 3 months for this substance, and he was an adult and all. For Valieva as a "protected person" it should be less than that, I'd imagine.

You have brought several points. I shall address only the first one. I would not try to convince anyone that she did not take it because it was not efficient. WADA is a partner with Pfizer so that they have big "scientific muscles" and they already provided some analysis that TMZ may help to improve some body functions relevant to figure skating.

If we are talking about if it made sense for them to use TMZ I would look only at detectability not at the efficacy. And here I see good point for defense. So far "friends" of TT used some strong words including "child abuse". They have not used "idiot" or "stupid" yet. And those are the words should we believe that the doping took place. One can find all the data is in the report plus in a standard TMZ description that one can easily download.

TMZ is a long-lasting drug. The report indicates that a detected concentration means taking one 35 mg pill 5-7 days prior to the test. Now it is obvious that TMZ is not a wonder pill. It's taken as a course of several pills. It is safely to assume that being taken as a course TMZ presence will be detected during the course and at least 10 days after the course is finished. So that with a 3-4 day course we are talking about at least 14 days of an athlete in the "we got you!" zone.

We know that Rusada is not allowed to do tests (they still might unofficially). Unless someone tells me that a sudden unplanned test by a WADA official was excluded why would they risk putting a star skater in this 14 day risk coridor? Why would they give her a long-lasting forbidden substance 5-7 days prior to a planned test? The only answer if they did that is that they are both evil and stupid.

I don't believe in this answer. The only logical reasons for me are lab's mistake or contamination. I would exclude sabotage at this point as it will be labeled as "conspiracy theory", although as we are talking not about some random person but about the annointed olympic champion whose scores were way above everyone else I would not exclude sabotage from consideration.

I believe that Kamila was and is clean and TT has nothing to do with this test result.

 

[TontoK]

It's very interesting to think about how feelings evolved:
- ten days ago, when all this started, she was viewed an innocent victim harmed by obnoxious adults;
- when the lift was banned, she became the face of doping who had got an undeserved special favour;
- when it was said her grandfather might be the origin of the positive result, she became a ridiculed mix of a cheater and a liar, only to be virtually lynched on social networks and newspapers/websites;
- and yesterday, most felt so sorry for her - and it was heartbreaking indeed.
Public opinion is fickle...

My baseline opinion has not changed.

She is a young girl who was manipulated by the adults around her, and she continues to be manipulated by them as evidenced by the "grandfather" story. I felt sorry for her, and I still do. I thought she should have disqualified to compete in the Olympics because she tested positive for a banned substance, and I still think that.

The only "evolution" that has occurred is that I'm even more convinced I was right from the beginning. What happened during and after the Ladies event was both heartbreaking and shameful.

 

[iceskater10]

You have brought several points. I shall address only the first one. I would not try to convince anyone that she did not take it because it was not efficient. WADA is a partner with Pfizer so that they have big "scientific muscles" and they already provided some analysis that TMZ may help to improve some body functions relevant to figure skating.

If we are talking about if it made sense for them to use TMZ I would look only at detectability not at the efficacy. And here I see good point for defense. So far "friends" of TT used some strong words including "child abuse". They have not used "idiot" or "stupid" yet. And those are the words should we believe that the doping took place. One can find all the data is in the report plus in a standard TMZ description that one can easily download.

TMZ is a long-lasting drug. The report indicates that a detected concentration means taking one 35 mg pill 5-7 days prior to the test. Now it is obvious that TMZ is not a wonder pill. It's taken as a course of several pills. It is safely to assume that being taken as a course TMZ presence will be detected during the course and at least 10 days after the course is finished. So that with a 3-4 day course we are talking about at least 14 days of an athlete in the "we got you!" zone.

We know that Rusada is not allowed to do tests (they still might unofficially). Unless someone tells me that a sudden unplanned test by a WADA official was excluded why would they risk putting a star skater in this 14 day risk coridor? Why would they give her a long-lasting forbidden substance 5-7 days prior to a planned test? The only answer if they did that is that they are both evil and stupid.

I don't believe in this answer. The only logical reasons for me are lab's mistake or contamination. I would exclude sabotage at this point as it will be labeled as "conspiracy theory", although as we are talking not about some random person but about the annointed olympic champion whose scores were way above everyone else I would not exclude sabotage from consideration.

I believe that Kamila was and is clean and TT has nothing to do with this test result.

Oh Please give it up!!

 

[skatedreamer]

My baseline opinion has not changed.

She is a young girl who was manipulated by the adults around her, and she continues to be manipulated by them as evidenced by the "grandfather" story. I felt sorry for her, and I still do. I thought she should have disqualified to compete in the Olympics because she tested positive for a banned substance, and I still think that.

The only "evolution" that has occurred is that I'm even more convinced I was right from the beginning. What happened during and after the Ladies event was both heartbreaking and shameful.

Couldn't agree more if I tried!

 

[[email protected]]

Oh Please give it up!!

Don't you think, I would not care less, just saying....

 

[TontoK]

It's getting real now.

IOC President denounces the "tremendous coldness" directed toward Valieva by her closest entourage after the free skate.

Edit: He uses words like "chilling" and "disturbing" and discusses the needless pressure placed on the athlete. The video in the article is worth watching.

IOC prez slams Valieva's entourage for 'coldness'

The IOC's Thomas Bach criticized Russian figure skater Kamila Valieva's entourage for their "tremendous coldness" toward her after a mistake-filled free skate at the Beijing Olympics.

www.espn.com

 

[skatedreamer]

It's getting real now.

IOC President denounces the "tremendous coldness" directed toward Valieva by her closest entourage after the free skate.

Edit: He uses words like "chilling" and "disturbing" and discusses the needless pressure placed on the athlete. The video in the article is worth watching.

IOC prez slams Valieva's entourage for 'coldness'

The IOC's Thomas Bach criticized Russian figure skater Kamila Valieva's entourage for their "tremendous coldness" toward her after a mistake-filled free skate at the Beijing Olympics.

www.espn.com

from the article:
"He does not like the toughness of our coaches, but everyone knows that in elite sports, the coach's toughness is key to the students' victories,'' Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said later Friday.

Fine, Dmitry. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

But here's the thing: it's true that a good coach is tough...but a REALLY good coach knows that sometimes a little tenderness is needed, too.

 

[solani]

For her team:
If they had had the courage, they would have advised Kamila, for her own good, to withdraw, to go home, to ride this out with the support of friends and family. They didn't. They wanted shiny gold instead, for some reason a "sweep" was more important than a young athlete's health. Irreparable harm resulted from *that* decision and they alone are responsible.

We don't know that. Maybe her team advised her to accept the situation and she didn't want that? Let's not forget that this her profession and she's certainly trained very hard.
I think she would've been devastated if they'd banned her. More devastated than now? I have no idea. And the World would've thought that she would've won the event, if only she'd be allowed to compete. In hindsite this would be preferable to her now, but who could have known?
This is such a strange situation. We've seen skaters falter under pressure in the past. Why is this affecting us more? Because this pressure was unique or special? I'm not sure I really understand it. And I still think, that she didn't skate that bad and that the pressure that Sherbakova's good skate put on her, caused the mediocre performance.