Kamila Valieva: Anti-doping Case and Follow-ups

[wakuwaku]

I don't know why people are so sure on "Eteri is villain" axioma here without any proves, tbh. Well, actually I know why - but it makes me sad since it's just shows how people are easily influenced by certain artificial propaganda and how they are not able to think for themselves. Moreover, I know that conspiracy theorizing and skaters/coaches bashing here is not welcomed/prohibited, right (these rules are even under each page of topic)? And what constant Eteri blaming in serious organized crime without proves can be - if not exactly that? If that type of attack is allowed here against one party - I have my own set of other parties I can blame, for sure. Even with lots of circumstantial evidence and logical connections explaining strange pecularities of whole set of events that occured during and before OG. Somehow I doubt it will be allowed here though - since there are clearly some precoinceived notions and double standarts which shows tolerance only to "right" narration here, "right" type of bashing and "right" type of conspiracies to discuss.
That said, all I want to say for now is two things which maybe give people some doubts (and maybe it was mentioned here already - the topic is too big for me to find it):

1) Eteri can be as villainous as she can - but she is definitely not a fool. She never was caught in doping scandals for her many-years career as a coach - while her skaters showing excellent results were passing numerous doping tests all these years without issues including olympic seasons. She just doesn't need doping here and now - especially for Valieva who is so good that the gap between her and others allowing lot of mistakes to still win. And she was extremely stable and with quads for a long time even in juniors. Any doping case for Eteri's any skater at any insignificant competition or training between them would mean end of her reputation - and they do doping tests even in juniors. Why risk so much for juniors? And if not juniors - why risk in seniors for a 15y.o who is at her physical peak and will win in any case - with or without drugs? The most often cases of doping are usually weak athletes or those who suddenly becomes unusually strong. It's not Kamila's situation at all - she always was very strong and improves gradually transitioning with stable quads from juniors to seniors as well.
2) just read how this exact drug is working or consult with doctors about it. It can give effect only with long two-three week course of administering which would mean high concentration of that drug for a long time as well. Despite excretion of first initial metabolites is rather fast - after long time of consuming significant remains of it will be in the body for a long time as well. Yet Valieva were tested before and after RusNat as clean and she was found to have only microdose of the substance - implying consuming only one tablet or less couple of days before or even little crumble of it just before the skate. Which doesn't make sense since this drug have effect only with using for a long time and have bad side effects especially for a skater - including tremors, vertigo, nausea etc - as far as I remember. Why Eteri would want to use it if there is many others similar legal drugs with the same effect?

Despite the above for some reason if any other underage skater (for example Liu) was caught in doping - I am 100% sure nobody would suspect her coaches. Everyone would thinking about some accidental occurence first of all. It's not the case for Eteri though. Why? I think because her skaters are too good and it irritates too many people. It's the only explanation I can think of.

 

[gsk8]

Just so you know. Edmunds says that Russian girls as young as 8 are dopers because it is unrealistic/impossible to jump triples at that age.

Can you please post a source? Thanks!

 

[Wafflecakes]

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WADA is more like a private club.

Yeah so ROC can do what they did with the ISU... stack it with friendlies so they can lie, cheat, and drug kids all day with no consequences.

 

[el henry]

It has been referred to a few times, but because I think it is important and not everyone wants to click on an article (which is well worth it and I recommend)

Comments of Marie-France Dubreuil
[My description: Olympic gold medalist coach, coach of more figure skating Olympians at Beijing 2022 than any other coach, not American and not Anglophone]

What I've seen in recent days and years is that Russians only have eyes for what's external: performances at all costs, world titles and Olympic records. I doubt very much that their goals are to take care of the athlete and the individual first, otherwise they wouldn't have decided to make a 15-year-old skate when the eyes of the world are on her. She would have had trouble walking in the athletes' village, where everyone would have recognized her, but not for the right reasons, especially not for her athletic abilities and elegance. Because she is an exceptional girl. She is still the first to land quads at the Olympic Games.

It's really sad, [she repeated twice] I think her coach, her federation should have told her, you are going to withdraw, for your sake and out of respect for the sport and for the other competitors. Withdraw above all to protect your mental health.

Translation: mine. I have taken liberties with phrasing to make it sound more natural to anglophones (for example, grande tristesse: really sad). Also I have never heard "yeux qui flashent" so I guessed. If 4EverChan has any corrections, I would of course defer.

Une touche montréalaise derrière les podiums en patinage artistique à Pékin

L'entraîneuse Marie-France Dubreuil veut d'abord créer une ambiance qui pousse à l'excellence.

ici.radio-canada.ca

 

[solani]

Is that even possible? I can only think of two drugs that would allow that amphetamine and cocaine... I mean steroids and heart medication won't allow you to do that.

"The Clear" - the anabolic steroid that Marion Jones used - is a liquid and was placed under the tongue. And from the Sochi scandal we know of "mouth washs", containing alcohol, that were be used before competition.
Substances that are absorbed via the mucous membranes, are faster available and stay shorter in your system. At least that's how I understand it.

 

[4everchan]

Translation: mine. I have taken liberties with phrasing to make it sound more natural to anglophones (for example, grande tristesse: really sad). Also I have never heard "yeux qui flashent" so I guessed. If 4EverChan has any corrections, I would of course defer.

Une touche montréalaise derrière les podiums en patinage artistique à Pékin

L'entraîneuse Marie-France Dubreuil veut d'abord créer une ambiance qui pousse à l'excellence.

ici.radio-canada.ca

yeux qui flashent : your translation of that is okay. It means obsessed with something. So the literal : all they see or only have eyes for is good. I probably would have used " all they (Russians) notice"

Grande tristesse is more than really sad... that sentence is in answer to the commentator from the French CBC's really graphic words about the situation which do not translate well at all so I won't do it

But it does mean " it's a disaster, it's a tragedy. " And then she goes on with what she thinks would have prevented that by protecting Kamila from the circus and sending her home.

Very good translation, I wouldn't have commented on it but I thought I would answer your 2 points. Thanks for doing it... I often like doing these but I am so sleep deprived that It was nice to wake up with the job well done

 

[solani]

But Polina Edmuds (from the post about her podcast I started this discussion) have already claimed all of them dopers. 'It is very different from a clean athletes' she said after she explained that Plushenko, Tuktik and Bobrova had used meldonium before it was banned.

I want to explain Edmund's pov - I know a former professional athlete (Olympic Champ, endurance sport) who simply refused to take any supplements his whole life. He was even beeing difficult when he was seriously ill, he flat out refused to take any medication. And he openly criticised his team mates for taking supplements. I don't know what's on Edmund's supplements list, but it's probably rather short, if it exists.
My mother in law goes to the doctor, gets a prescription, only gets the drug if she feels really bad and often even doesn't take it then if the leaflet is scary enough.
Then there are athletes who are searching for everything that could possibly improve their performance legally. I don't judge them, I would probably do that as well.
An athlete should at least be interested, what goes into his body, no matter the age. My four year old is ever so curious when I give him a vitamin D supplement.

 

[Pantsu]

Can you please post a source? Thanks!

The source is her podcast. You can find it on her twitter

 

[gsk8]

The source is her podcast. You can find it on her twitter

That's fine, but when stating that someone actually said something, you want to provide a source (link).

 

[LiamForeman]

yes .. kamila could have won etc... kamila could also be forgiven... two what ifs against the what if this all ends up a big circus which was most likely to happen

also, my point is more about that CAS could have said : we believe that WADA IOC and ISU's appeal is legitimate we do not have have enough information to indeed justify the lift of the provisional suspension by RUSADA and will reinstate it for the sake of the integrity of the event.

The problem is that many believe the WADA IOC is truly NOT legitimate, and believe that CAS acted on behalf of a wronged and underaged athlete. Kamila isn't just any Olympic athlete. She is practically a unicorn with her otherworldly level of talent. I find it hard to believe that Eteri would totally screw up her handling of this "can't miss" child. All Eteri needed to do was just GUIDE Kamila to gold. She didn't need to dope Kamila. This is a total mishandling of a super-talent. And someone needs to pay for this. I am more TeamKamila after all this. She was wronged. She does not deserve this or any abuse.

 

[4everchan]

The problem is that many believe the WADA IOC is truly NOT legitimate, and believe that CAS acted on behalf of a wronged and underaged athlete. Kamila isn't just any Olympic athlete. She is practically a unicorn with her otherworldly level of talent. I find it hard to believe that Eteri would totally screw up her handling of this "can't miss" child. All Eteri needed to do was just GUIDE Kamila to gold. She didn't need to dope Kamila. This is a total mishandling of a super-talent. And someone needs to pay for this. I am more TeamKamila after all this. She was wronged. She does not deserve this or any abuse.

I agree Kamila was wronged. I agree the adults managing her need to be held accountable. However, if we cannot trust WADA, ISU and IOC, what do you propose? I have heard both sides here on this thread.. and everything in between. I am on the side that as soon as there is a positive test, it should be an automatic suspension, no matter the age.. That would prevent adults to "guide" their athletes too strongly.

 

[anonymoose_au]

"The Clear" - the anabolic steroid that Marion Jones used - is a liquid and was placed under the tongue. And from the Sochi scandal we know of "mouth washs", containing alcohol, that were be used before competition.
Substances that are absorbed via the mucous membranes, are faster available and stay shorter in your system. At least that's how I understand it.

Oh I meant more in terms of being able to do all those jumps. Like...you'd need an almost maniac sort of energy to do it. The kind you'd get from cocaine or amphetamine.

But yeah would even the most arrogant dopers do it right in front of everyone like that? Especially since Polina was an outsider?

I wouldn't call her a liar, but she clearly has very strong views among them being that basically the only reason Russian girls can jump quads is doping. I don't think that's true...you still have to have natural talent. Giving some random a drug won't suddenly make them jump anything, let alone quads!

 

[LiamForeman]

I don't know why people are so sure on "Eteri is villain" axioma here without any proves, tbh. Well, actually I know why - but it makes me sad since it's just shows how people are easily influenced by certain artificial propaganda and how they are not able to think for themselves. Moreover, I know that conspiracy theorizing and skaters/coaches bashing here is not welcomed/prohibited, right (these rules are even under each page of topic)? And what constant Eteri blaming in serious organized crime without proves can be - if not exactly that? If that type of attack is allowed here against one party - I have my own set of other parties I can blame, for sure. Even with lots of circumstantial evidence and logical connections explaining strange pecularities of whole set of events that occured during and before OG. Somehow I doubt it will be allowed here though - since there are clearly some precoinceived notions and double standarts which shows tolerance only to "right" narration here, "right" type of bashing and "right" type of conspiracies to discuss.
That said, all I want to say for now is two things which maybe give people some doubts (and maybe it was mentioned here already - the topic is too big for me to find it):

1) Eteri can be as villainous as she can - but she is definitely not a fool. She never was caught in doping scandals for her many-years career as a coach - while her skaters showing excellent results were passing numerous doping tests all these years without issues including olympic seasons. She just doesn't need doping here and now - especially for Valieva who is so good that the gap between her and others allowing lot of mistakes to still win. And she was extremely stable and with quads for a long time even in juniors. Any doping case for Eteri's any skater at any insignificant competition or training between them would mean end of her reputation - and they do doping tests even in juniors. Why risk so much for juniors? And if not juniors - why risk in seniors for a 15y.o who is at her physical peak and will win in any case - with or without drugs? The most often cases of doping are usually weak athletes or those who suddenly becomes unusually strong. It's not Kamila's situation at all - she always was very strong and improves gradually transitioning with stable quads from juniors to seniors as well.
2) just read how this exact drug is working or consult with doctors about it. It can give effect only with long two-three week course of administering which would mean high concentration of that drug for a long time as well. Despite excretion of first initial metabolites is rather fast - after long time of consuming significant remains of it will be in the body for a long time as well. Yet Valieva were tested before and after RusNat as clean and she was found to have only microdose of the substance - implying consuming only one tablet or less couple of days before or even little crumble of it just before the skate. Which doesn't make sense since this drug have effect only with using for a long time and have bad side effects especially for a skater - including tremors, vertigo, nausea etc - as far as I remember. Why Eteri would want to use it if there is many others similar legal drugs with the same effect?

• Yesterday at 6:41 PM
• Add bookmark
• #4,592

I know the conversation has moved on a bit, but I wanted to comment on this, because I did listen to that segment of the TSL episode, and nothing Polina said is self contradictory. She and her mother (she was a young junior at the time) in the bathroom/locker room saw Russian athletes putting drops of tincture under their tongues, then going out and producing practice sessions with extraordinary numbers of jumps and also immediately jumping without warming up. Then she also recounted instances of athletes taking hours to produce a urine sample for testing.

I'm not her biggest fan -- I find her very articulate, but for me she tends to present herself as someone with a much longer and far more storied career than she had, and she can be strong with criticism in a manner I don't enjoy -- but she didn't say anything contradictory or inconsistent.

"I wonder...I didn't watch any of The Skating Lesson or listen to Polina's podcast, but there is a sublingual (under the tongue form of the natural supplement L-Carnitine) that might explain the drops. I don't necessarily want to play devil's advocate, but you have to think if the Russian girls were using under the tongue drops publicly in a locker room where other skaters could see them and not doing anything to hide that, why the drops would even be illegal substances? I think I'll wait for more of the whole K.V. story to come out and I hope all of the truth behind this scandal is found, especially the whole pattern and training practice of endurance doping to produce unnatural super-(quad-producing) soldier serum results.

But Polina Edmuds (from the post about her podcast I started this discussion) have already claimed all of them dopers. 'It is very different from a clean athletes' she said after she explained that Plushenko, Tuktik and Bobrova had used meldonium before it was banned."

I'm taking these quotes and responding to them concerning Polina Edmonds's comments. I first want to say that I hold very little that Polina Edmonds says with much/any significance or respect. IMO, Polina has a trail of bitter tears following her own bitterness over her bigger than imagined career that she she thinks she had. That she would actually call out Russians and claim that that she saw them doping is ridiculous IMO. What could this solution be that they put under their tongues? Glucose, maybe? WHO KNOWS? But for Polina to go out there and accuse others of doping is just wrong, outrageous and and unprofessional. Reeks of bitterness, IMO.

Despite the above for some reason if any other underage skater (for example Liu) was caught in doping - I am 100% sure nobody would suspect her coaches. Everyone would thinking about some accidental occurence first of all. It's not the case for Eteri though. Why? I think because her skaters are too good and it irritates too many people. It's the only explanation I can think of.

I am 100% sure that I would suspect Alysa Liu's coaching team if she was caught doping. Why would you even say that? You really think that Alysa all on her own would try to "dope" to improve her chances???? What a character assassination of a 16 y/o girl. ( Including all the attacks on Kamila, who is only 15. ) Y'all can do better. Much. better.

 

[[email protected]]

only one tablet or less couple of days before or even little crumble of it just before the skate.

The CAS report specifies: "1 35 mg tablet 5-7 days before the test". The rest I absolutely agree with (I would not just speculate about Alysa and whatabout) but it's futile with this crowd. They have made up their mind around: "the forbidden drug was found - full stop" and no arguments, nothing will change this attitude. And even (hopefully) if the court clears Kamila of charges the narrative won't change. We already had the slogans like "this sport is dead now" even after the lift of the provisional suspension.

 

[[email protected]]

Yeah so ROC can do what they did with the ISU... stack it with friendlies so they can lie, cheat, and drug kids all day with no consequences.

This sort of posts of the same posters are abundant here. Yet it's me who gets the warnings.

 

[[email protected]]

I want to explain Edmund's pov - I know a former professional athlete (Olympic Champ, endurance sport) who simply refused to take any supplements his whole life. He was even beeing difficult when he was seriously ill, he flat out refused to take any medication. And he openly criticised his team mates for taking supplements. I don't know what's on Edmund's supplements list, but it's probably rather short, if it exists.
My mother in law goes to the doctor, gets a prescription, only gets the drug if she feels really bad and often even doesn't take it then if the leaflet is scary enough.
Then there are athletes who are searching for everything that could possibly improve their performance legally. I don't judge them, I would probably do that as well.
An athlete should at least be interested, what goes into his body, no matter the age. My four year old is ever so curious when I give him a vitamin D supplement.

That's all fine but these are just guesses. There are 3 situations when we exclude contamination and sabotage: the forbidden drugs are taken with no TUE, the forbidden drugs are taken with TUE, the allowed drugs are taken.

The first 2 ones are not OK with me. First of all these are performance enhancing drugs and the narrative that "the athletes won't be able to compete without them then give them TUE" is the 10th level hypocrisy. If they can't they shouldn't. Second, different countries have different access to TUEs, hence, it's not a fair game per se. 15 Russians vs. 469 Americans in the same year says a lot. But the 3rd situation should be no one's business unless there is a requirement that whatever substance outside the regular food is taken inside should be publicaly reported. I am all for that but it will never happen. The reason is obvious.

 

[[email protected]]

I would not speculate about their motives. What is clear for me is that Eteri is a great coach. The greatest? It's debatable. It's hard to compare figure skating now and 40 years ago when I myself skated. it's hard to compare 47-year old Eteri with 80-year old Mishin and Moskvina. As of todays coaches she is the one. She drove the revolution in women's figure skating. The narrative of pre-puberty girls has fell miserably. Both OGM and OSM winners are 17 years old and would be senior even if the age limit is raised. But it's not just that. Look at Morisi, at his way up starting with his skating for Russia when he could not clear 200 at Rostelecom. Forget about long-timers: women and Morisi. Look at T/M. There are two facts: 1) They were never as good as they were in Bejing. If it were not for a quad twist by S/H they would become the OGM 2) It happened when they moved to Eteri.

That's full stop for me - not those conspiracy theories about her child abuses which are not supposed to be here at GS but unfortunately they are.

 

[Draculus]

I want to explain Edmund's pov - I know a former professional athlete (Olympic Champ, endurance sport) who simply refused to take any supplements his whole life. He was even beeing difficult when he was seriously ill, he flat out refused to take any medication. And he openly criticised his team mates for taking supplements. I don't know what's on Edmund's supplements list, but it's probably rather short, if it exists.

And what was the reasoning behind his critics?

My mother in law goes to the doctor, gets a prescription, only gets the drug if she feels really bad and often even doesn't take it then if the leaflet is scary enough.

Well, for me this is definitely weird. She probably miss dosage, so even when she takes medicine - it does not work how it is should be.

So back to Polina Edmund, of course she for herself can limit whatever she wants, it's her choice.
But claiming that only such athletes are 'clean' is kind of worrying. Sure it is not to the level of an obsession in OCD, but there is something non-rational here, like 'fear of contamination'.

Why do ppl mark any medication (even supplements) negatively?

 

[kan01]

I don't know why people are so sure on "Eteri is villain" axioma here without any proves, tbh.

Who told you there's no proof? There are interviews with her skaters, her colleagues, and even her admitting to her ways. Or do you think it's normal, just to give you one example, to separate a teen of their mother (as a condition to be trained) and then, years after, when the same teen who is now 16 years old starts living with their mother again you say: "She got lazy with her mom around and wouldn't train for 12 hours anymore). That same 16 year old went on to become World Champion despite Eteri's concerns.
The list of proof is so big and disturbing for any normal human who believes in protecting children above a piece of metal, and we're the ones lacking critical thinking? Please.

 

[Mafke]

That would prevent adults to "guide" their athletes too strongly.

As I said on another thread, one problem (among many others) of the current doping monitors is they hit out at the bottom and not the top.
they always punish athletes and not federations.
After the news from Sochi came out Russia (and Russian citizens) should have been excluded through at least 2020 from any international competition.
Go for the federations and not the athletes....