Official explanation of Caroline's score change

[feraina]

So, here's an explanation from the chief referee last night as to why Caroline's score was increased then decreased:
http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/current/content/usnats08.htm

Apparently her 3Lz was asked by the tech panel for review on edge deduction, they decided not to mark it 'e' but they downgraded it. And the judges were informed of this (and required to give -GOE's). Later during the competition, the tech panel decided that it shouldn't have been a downgrade, and so the difference in base value was added back to Caroline's score (putting her ahead of Bebe), without changes in GOE. After the competition, the judges were asked to re-evaluate the jump for GOE, since without a downgrade GOE is not required to be -. The chief referee objected to this, saying it was a "field of play" decision and cannot be changed once the marks were given, and after much discussion, the original base-value and -GOE were allowed to be re-instated.

I was surprised to begin with that 3Lz was called UR, b/c it really didn't look so. And as I said, I didn't see as much of a flutz as usual -- perhaps it was "flat" enough to be considered not "obviously wrong edge" and that's why the tech panel didn't make an edge call. I personally feel that the jump should definitely not have been called UR, and borderline case for 'e'. I'm sad for Caroline that the tech panel seems to have made a mistake initially (enough for them to later change it) and she ended up on the wrong end. But if it's an honest mistake, and the rules are such that you cannot change GOE's afterwards, then those are the rules. I hope she can come back strong in the LP and just forget about that SP altogether. I want to see a clean "Ave Maria" from her!

There has been a number of precedence in which tech panel calls were changed after scores were announced, such as at Japanese national's when a wrong level call being corrected meant a different men's champion, and a different entry at World's. But I think in all these precedences, the calls solely affected the levels and the tech panel, and therefore not the GOE's and not the judging panel. The tech panel doesn't inform the judges of the levels of spins/jumps/footwork seqs, and the judges base their GOE's solely on how well they think they were performed without level considerations; whereas for downgrades (and edge calls), the tech panel does inform the judges, who are required to give -GOE's.

My personal opinions on the specific call in question aside, I am upset with USFSA for making this sequence of controversial mistakes, and CoP for being so stupid and self-inconsistent. Why are some tech panel calls relayed to the judges and others not? Why mix up the responsibilities of these supposedly separate judging bodies only in the case of UR's and edge calls? The whole point is that you have someone determining the level of difficulty, and others judging how well it was done. If CoP had kept the two separate and instantiated the penalties for 'e' and '<' without violating the independence of tech and judging panels, then it wouldn't be the case that certain calls can be changed and others cannot, and people (including refs and tech callers) wouldn't be confused about it.

 

[Skye]

There has been a number of precedence in which tech panel calls were changed after scores were announced, such as at Japanese national's when a wrong level call being corrected meant a different men's champion, and a different entry at World's.

Wow, when did this happen? I knew there was a fiasco at the 2005 Nationals where Nobunari Oda having violated the Zayak rule by repeating three types of triple jumps had to settle for the silver after being originally crowned champion, but that I remember was due to problems with the juding software. Did something like that ever happen again because of a wrong level call? And does anybody know what was the reason for Stephane Lambiel's free skate score change at the Europeans, by the way?

 

[feraina]

Sorry, I mis-remembered. It was actually a wrong call between lutz/flip, which meant a violation of the Zayak rule.

 

[carolinefan177]

Poor Zhang...as if things couldn't get any worse for her. Oh well, with all this Nagasu hype, she doesn't have as much pressure anymore.

 

[figsk8r2]

And does anybody know what was the reason for Stephane Lambiel's free skate score change at the Europeans, by the way?

That was because the judges only added in the base value for his TES and forgot the GOEs.

 

[Skye]

That was because the judges only added in the base value for his TES and forgot the GOEs.

I did a search myself, and found this at http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/current/content/Euro08.htm

The changing situation came about because the Technical Specialist initially classed Lambiel’s flawed seventh move as a triple flip sequence to triple toe instead of a combination. It was initially believed Lambiel, in addition to turning a double three between the jumps, had also put his foot down and so could no longer be classed as doing the combination. Careful review proved otherwise.

 

[redhotcoach]

I strongly disagree with the 'field of play' decision rule that poor techinical panels hide behind. Skaters rarely, if ever, benefit from a wrong decision in their favor....but very frequently we see skaters being robbed of marks because the panel either 'didn't see' the move or 'from their angle it looks like not enough rotations etc."

I've had a few skaters who were not credited with moves or levels that were very obvious on the video. In fact, at one competition two technical callers were sitting near me, watching my skater's performance. When the marks came out - they seemed puzzled and the ensuing report card showed the technical panel totally missed elements. On protest, the referee looked at the video - and said "oh I must have looked down and missed that (a level 4 spiral sequence) and on a spin 'oh I forgot to mark down the change of foot". HOWEVER, even though she admitted her mistake - and the loss of 4 points to my skater - nothing could be done about it (and it was the difference between 1st and 7th).

At nationals, I've questioned elements and they were reviewed by the panel - same thing - yes the spiral sequence or spin was level 4 but we can't change the marks now . Sorry your skater lost out on top 5 placing.....

The new system should allow for adjustments after the fact.

Field of play decisions ......right!

 

[gocaroline]

No wonder figure skating is not a real popular sport. The juding system in this sport is really frustrating. I felt bad for Caroline. Now Caroline should feel not much to lose after this incident and just go out there tomorrow and have a great skate!

 

[bekalc]

Yes, but a downgraded jump is reviewed pretty strongly, I would think before a decision was made. It was said that they did look at it on the tape, and later on someone re opened the case.

The issue I have is I'm sure there were several skaters who would have to have the technical panel take a relook at some of their jumps as well. So why does just Caroline's get reviewed? If the panel had to really look every jump that was downgraded every time, the competition would never be finished. In terms of downgraded jumps (which are reviewed before the marks are given) it shouldn't be redone.

 

[carolinefan177]

Yes, but a downgraded jump is reviewed pretty strongly, I would think before a decision was made. It was said that they did look at it on the tape, and later on someone re opened the case.

The issue I have is I'm sure there were several skaters who would have to have the technical panel take a relook at some of their jumps as well. So why does just Caroline's get reviewed? If the panel had to really look every jump that was downgraded every time, the competition would never be finished. In terms of downgraded jumps (which are reviewed before the marks are given) it shouldn't be redone.

Well, the judging panel isn't perfect, and in Caroline's case, her triple lutz shouldn't have been downgraded. Obviously, people felt strongly enough about it to re-evaluate it; they shouldn't have made the mistake in the first place. It's not like this is a new thing or anything, and I don't feel like the judging panel should give everyone's jumps another look, only the cases that they feel strongly about, and Caroline's is one of them.

 

[emma]

I'm so confused with this....

So, is there anyway to sum up what happened? In the end, are people saying that Caroline is not in the 'right' spot or she is being denied point she should have???

 

[ChrisH]

Y'know, there's a tennis championship being decided between two gorgeous 20 year old ladies (the two I wanted to be in the finals ) ... and they have this line-calls video appeal system. The ladies have too many opportunities to appeal. Quite the contrast. Too many appeals in tennis vs. no appeals in skating.

 

[Tinymavy15]

as usual. the judges pick on this girl for EVERY LITTTLE THING! I would be stunned if Irina Slutskya or Michelle Kwan ever had wrong edge deductions no matter how many flutzes they used. Kimmie can cheat every combo she does and they turn a blind eye.... emily can underotate about a half a turn..ignored. I knew Caroline would have probelms with the nationals judges... they don't want a underage champion. But that does not explain why the gave marai, who is the same age a huge score!

 

[krenseby]

as usual. the judges pick on this girl for EVERY LITTTLE THING! I would be stunned if Irina Slutskya or Michelle Kwan ever had wrong edge deductions no matter how many flutzes they used. Kimmie can cheat every combo she does and they turn a blind eye.... emily can underotate about a half a turn..ignored. I knew Caroline would have probelms with the nationals judges... they don't want a underage champion. But that does not explain why the gave marai, who is the same age a huge score!

I don't think they do it on purpose. It happens inadvertently because she skates slow enough for them to be able to spot all the jump defects that they miss in skaters that whiz by them rather quickly! (She is so fast: there she goes... now she's here and she's not. No time to see whether the jump had problems. Good think that young Caroline skates slow enough for us to analyze her jumps in excruciating detail!)

 

[museksk8r]

I don't get why it's so difficult for the judges to determine underrotation on suspect jumps. Shouldn't those computers when they playback in slow motion have a freeze frame so you can determine half-turn cheats from quarter-turn cheats and so on? Same thing with wrong edge take-offs.

 

[Wrlmy]

Caroline is known to flutz and underrotate, and it does not help her at all. Had this event been like SA, where everyone was called for underrotation, I wouldn't complain. But here,it's rather obvious to me that Caroline unfairly scrutinized whereas other a few ladies got away with it (not going to name anyone). Bias and perception are hard to beat. But then again, Kimmie was called for wrong edge, but Caroline, Mirai, Ashley, and Rachael got away? I'm yet to see the actual skate but going with my previous knowledge. I find it implausible that all four girls fixed their flutz within couple months. I don't know what the heck is going on with the tech caller.

 

[bekalc]

Caroline is known to flutz and underrotate, and it does not help her at all. Had this event been like SA, where everyone was called for underrotation, I wouldn't complain. But here,it's rather obvious to me that Caroline unfairly scrutinized whereas other a few ladies got away with it (not going to name anyone). Bias and perception are hard to beat. But then again, Kimmie was called for wrong edge, but Caroline, Mirai, Ashley, and Rachael got away? I'm yet to see the actual skate but going with my previous knowledge. I find it implausible that all four girls fixed their flutz within couple months. I don't know what the heck is going on with the tech caller.

My issue is when has a downgraded jump ever been changed. I can't remember that ever happening. Sometimes you get good callers and bad callers. I doubt that Caroline has never had generous callers before, and by all accounts Caroline's jumps weren't at all on in the short program, and her triple/triple was clearly underrotated.

There is no history of downgraded jumps being changed, so why just Caroline's now? I have real issue with that one, and the fact is maybe Ashley, Mirai, and Rachael weren't called for downgrades, but they were noticably more on in their programs, and their triple/triple attempts were better. Still Caroline wasn't the only person in the competition with downgrades.

If you can tell me one other person/team in this competition who had a situation like this happen a downgraded jump/element changed, then I will be a-okay with what happened. But that can't happen, because it doesn't happen in this system. There are rules about downgraded jumps not being re-reviewed after the scores are posted. So whether or not the initial call was fair, It is very much unfair that Caroline's jump got re reviewed. And someone on another thread said that Liang's coach wasn't happy about changing scores.

I'm sorry but people here are suggesting one rule for Caroline, she can have her jump's reviewed (that's what happened) and another for everyone else.

 

[Wrlmy]

My issue is when has a downgraded jump ever been changed. I can't remember that ever happening. Sometimes you get good callers and bad callers. I doubt that Caroline has never had generous callers before, and by all accounts Caroline's jumps weren't at all on in the short program, and her triple/triple was clearly underrotated.

There is no history of downgraded jumps being changed, so why just Caroline's now? I have real issue with that one, and the fact is maybe Ashley, Mirai, and Rachael weren't called for downgrades, but they were noticably more on in their programs, and their triple/triple attempts were better. Still Caroline wasn't the only person in the competition with downgrades.

If you can tell me one other person/team in this competition who had a situation like this happen a downgraded jump/element changed, then I will be a-okay with what happened. But that can't happen, because it doesn't happen in this system. There are rules about downgraded jumps not being re-reviewed after the scores are posted. So whether or not the initial call was fair, It is very much unfair that Caroline's jump got re reviewed. And someone on another thread said that Liang's coach wasn't happy about changing scores.

I'm sorry but people here are suggesting one rule for Caroline, she can have her jump's reviewed (that's what happened) and another for everyone else.

I see your point, but I don't see why you're quoting me since we're talking about two different things. I didn't and don't even want to comment on tech panel's decision because it only proves their incompetence. Also, it was Caroline's lutz that was reviewed, not her triple toe-loop. Her triple-triple was probably justly downgraded. As I said, I'm yet to see the actual competition, but from what I've heard, her lutz was not obviously underrotated, and that's why she was "almost" given benefit of doubt. I just find it absurd that no other lady who have their own history of underrotating was called for underrotation, same with wrong edge issue. BTW, you make it sound like Caroline's team is scheming to manipulate the result and hope it's not what you implied.

 

[oleada]

as usual. the judges pick on this girl for EVERY LITTTLE THING! I would be stunned if Irina Slutskya or Michelle Kwan ever had wrong edge deductions no matter how many flutzes they used. Kimmie can cheat every combo she does and they turn a blind eye.... emily can underotate about a half a turn..ignored. I knew Caroline would have probelms with the nationals judges... they don't want a underage champion. But that does not explain why the gave marai, who is the same age a huge score!

Well, flutz deductions didn't exist back when Irina and Michelle were skating, but I'm willing to guess that they wouldn't be the exception to the rule - skaters like Mao are getting edge deductions as well. Because you are a big name doesn't mean you're immune to the rules. At least you shouldn't be.

Honestly, this is just silly. Why would the USFS do anything to hurt one of its brightest young stars? They've done nothing but support and promote Caroline. I'm sure that if she had skated as well as Mirai, Rachael and Ashley had, she would have been rewarded.

Kimmie's flip was downgraded. They are not turning a blind eye to her under-rotations and neither are the international judges. To her or Emily, who's jumps have been downgraded a lot as well. Plenty of other skaters in the short got downgrades as well.

Why did Mirai get higher scores? Because she had a great skate, with a clean triple lutz-triple toe, triple flip and double axel with tons of speed and musicality. Her basics and jumps were excellent. Caroline had an uncharacteristically bad skate, she was slow as molasses especially in her steps and before her double axel. She underrotated her triple toe, and got lucky that she didn't get an edge deduction on her flutz (which is better, but still there). I'd have to go back and rewatch her skate to look at the rotation the the lutz. But anyway, her skate was slow and uninspired and lacked her usual spark.

The fact that Mirai and Rachael, despite being underage, got great scores showe d that the US judges were willing to reward great skates regardless of the skater's age.

Caroline's one tough cookie and I think she'll bounce back in the long.

 

[waxel]

If the same standard is applied for EVERY skater, fine. But if Caroline is scrutinized more significantly than others, that just makes the system more suspect than it already is. USFS and NBC ... and the media in general is looking for another star, Caroline may be it. No, she shouldn't be exempt from criticism or harsh marks- but NEITHER should she be more susceptible to them. All season long she has taken severe hits- some justified, some not- but in the end she remains a potential star in the making. (She's not alone- yep there are others who threaten!)

As others have suggested, maybe her 6th (or 7th)? place finish will take some heat off her shoulders. Yikes. High time she was allowed to be a 14 yr. old kid--- Mirai may absorb some of the vitriol depositied in Camp Zhang all season? Can't we be supportive of all? There was a link to last night's SP on the AOL welcome screen- first time I've seen skating make the "front page" in a while.