Official explanation of Caroline's score change | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Official explanation of Caroline's score change

Maybe, but from what I understand in order for a jump to be downgraded, it does get reviewed in slow motion. I'm sure they don't just downgrade a jump because it looks like that by the naked eye. It's checked in slow motion.

That's why the idea that the technical panel (the same one) someone feels the need to re-review a decision they had made together is fishy. It would be like if refs in baseball. Thought a ball wasn't a homerun, and reviewed it on tv to check again and made a decision. Then an hour later, they change their mind again.
 
Maybe, but from what I understand in order for a jump to be downgraded, it does get reviewed in slow motion. I'm sure they don't just downgrade a jump because it looks like that by the naked eye. It's checked in slow motion.

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***. Judges/specialists are not supposed to watch slow-motion.

***
 
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***Judges/specialists are not supposed to watch slow-motion.

If this is true, no wonder skating has faded away. No credibility whatsoever! If they don't use slow motion and freeze frames to analyze these technicalities, then that is a major disgrace.
 
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We should probably just drop this matter. No need to get upset, but some of us are obviously getting upset over it. Anyway, looks like Yu-na and Mirai wil need extra luck. Go Yu-na & Mirai!
 
Okay, I have a test for Zhang fans. Ask yourselfs what you would think if it was Meissner who had a jump downgraded, undowngraded, and then the chief referee at the end of the night said, Heh you can't undowngrade a jump. Tell me that you guys wouldn't think something was wrong.

My feeling is
1. Either the Technical Panel did not know the rules. Because apparently according to the referee. You cannot undowngrade jumps once a score has been announced. This is why, no one can point out where a downgraded jump has been changed in the history of COP. This would suggest some kind of incompetence. Because how can you be at US Nationals and not know this basic rule. (This isn't some low level competition)

2. Someone was pressuring the technical committe to review scores etc, and maybe people felt they could get away with it by having it done quietely. I'm not blaming Zhang's team for this, because I don't think they have that kind of power. AT ALL. So, see not blaming Zhang, she's not responsible for corruption.

My fear is if it's two, it could negatively effect the outcomes in the long. What happens if the technical panel felt the decision was right, and then got flack for that decision by higher ups. And so what happens if they decide to not downgrade, questionable jumps by Zhang tonight?

This is my concern. And I'm sorry but I can't understand how people can't think that something very strange happened. Because undowngrading jumps just don't happen. And the fact that the rechange was done quite quietly and Nancy had no explanation about the original change, also suggests something weird was going on.

Once again, I am not blaming Zhang for this because I don't think her team has that kind of power, at all.

Frankly, I'm not sure which one of my theories incompetence, or corruption is worse. When it comes to a competition of this level.

Um...First of all, I don't, in any way, feel that Caroline should get special treatment. The panel messed up; they've messed up before, and it's no surprise that it happened again. Like I've said a couple of times, I just think that if Caroline fully rotated the jump, she should get credit for it., and the best way to do that is to re-evaluate the decision using the avaliable technology. If this hapened to Kimmie, I would be saying the same thing. Besides, I think that Caroline has been short-changed a number of times before.

**and I just want to say that, no matter how much I disagree with you, I respect your opinion.....................even if you're wrong ;)
 
We should probably just drop this matter. No need to get upset, but some of us are obviously getting upset over it. Anyway, looks like Yu-na and Mirai wil need extra luck. Go Yu-na & Mirai!

Hey, I like Mao a lot too. It's funny though because based on Net's posts, I don't think Net liked Yu-na anyways. (I'm not sure about Mao) so I don't think Yu-na's any worse from the wear.

I can't complain though I've said that Zhang fans have turned me of Zhang. But while I get turned off, then I watch her (Zhang) and I must admit that Zhang is a lovely skater. I hope Zhang does as well as her talent allows her to do because all of these skaters work really hard and none of them deserve wishes of ill will.

Honestly, though my only thing is I don't like what I see is favoritism by the USFSA. I'd rather see the USFSA promote all of their young skaters, and let whoever rises ot the top, rise to the top.
Um...First of all, I don't, in any way, feel that Caroline should get special treatment. The panel messed up; they've messed up before, and it's no surprise that it happened again. Like I've said a couple of times, I just think that if Caroline fully rotated the jump, she should get credit for it., and the best way to do that is to re-evaluate the decision using the avaliable technology. If this hapened to Kimmie, I would be saying the same thing. Besides, I think that Caroline has been short-changed a number of times before.

**and I just want to say that, no matter how much I disagree with you, I respect your opinion.....................even if you're wrong
__________________]

Ditto the point I was making isn't that perhaps downgraded jumps shouldn't be allowed to be challenged. Maybe they should. The point I was making is that according to rules, you can't change a downgraded jump once it's been called. So then what was the technical committee doing changing Zhang's scores. It's hard to think they don't know those rules. And the same committee that changed it, was the one who downgraded it in the first place. Which leads to the question of were they influenced? And I'm pretty sure that they can look at replay when deciding if a jump should be downgraded.

It's kind of not about Zhang. It's about if the rules say that downgraded jumps calls cannot be changed once the scores are posted, then the downgraded jump shouldn't be changed for anyone. And at US Nationals, the officials involved should be aware of these rules.
 
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Hey, I like Mao a lot too. It's funny though because based on Net's posts, I don't think Net liked Yu-na anyways. (I'm not sure about Mao) so I don't think Yu-na's any worse from the wear.

I can't complain though I've said that Zhang fans have turned me of Zhang. But while I get turned off, then I watch her (Zhang) and I must admit that Zhang is a lovely skater. I hope Zhang does as well as her talent allows her to do because all of these skaters work really hard and none of them deserve wishes of ill will.

Honestly, though my only thing is I don't like what I see is favoritism by the USFSA. I'd rather see the USFSA promote all of their young skaters, and let whoever rises ot the top, rise to the top.

You are right. But Caroline is the one hurt and probably exhausted from thie "incident", and I don't think there is any need for further controversy involving this young skater. Anyway, here goes my million hugs for you:p
Some of the comments here were plain rude and unfair.
 
You are right. But Caroline is the one hurt and probably exhausted from thie "incident", and I don't think there is any need for further controversy involving this young skater. Anyway, here goes my million hugs for you:p
Some of the comments here were plain rude and unfair.

I agree this could hurt Caroline... And I feel bad for her.

I read on another board, that this issue is whose in charge. That technical panels have gone and tried to change scores several times at qualifying rounds as well. And probably this issue will go to the governing council. (That technical panels can't lobby to have scores changed like this). They are quite lucky a scandal didn't arise over it.
 
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Well, I started this thread and didn't dare to open it again fearful of what more vitriol will be thrown in poor Caroline's way. Now that I've finally made myself read through the thread, I'm relieved that the discussion has resolved on a point of relative peace/harmony. Thank goodness for that. ;)

I don't see why it's necessarily a huge surprise that the tech panel may have made a mistake this time (either wrongly downgrading a jump, or forgetting that a tech call involving GOE changes cannot be amended unlike most tech calls), considering how new the CoP is, and how the rules are constantly changing, and the tech panels are known to have made all kinds of mistakes at all levels of regional, national, and int'l competitions. The "entire history" of the CoP is only a few years old. And it has only been in its current form for a few months, with the addition of the edge deduction among other things -- and it happened that a review of the edge was what started the whole thing about downgrading Caroline's 3Lz, etc. So what's shocking about this if indeed they made a mistake? I don't see why cries of conspiracy have to be raised.

And for that matter, why this shows USFSA "favoritism." If they "favored" Caroline, they should have petitioned ISU to change the age rule already, when according to the media and skating forums that Caroline had about 50% chance of beating Kimmie for the gold, and over 95% chance of making the podium (just go look at the prediction threads).

Of course Caroline got most of the media and fans' attention this year, she had the most stellar GP season of all the US senior ladies, riding on top of the most stellar junior season ever enjoyed by a US lady last year. While the other youngsters are full of potential, too, like Ashley, Mirai, and Rachael, they didn't quite have the same level of results to show for their potential so far. The media and the USFSA are going to give the most attention to the skaters who achieved solid results, compared to those who are promising but haven't quite gotten the results yet -- I'm not saying that Ashley, Mirai, or Rachael are not unable to achieve as much or better than Caroline has so far -- maybe they haven't yet simply because they are late season bloomers or competed in less prestigious competitions so far.

I don't see why this has to be viewed as USFSA favoritism on Caroline's account either. From her anti-fans' rants, you'd think that USFSA was hyping Caroline based on nothing but thin air, while totally discounting the results that she actually achieved in competitions...

Mirai's team chose to compete on the JGP, and her coach explained why in interviews. Rachael had no international ranking and therefore no chance of getting two GP's (one if USFSA picks her for SA, but even that was not a given). Ashley debuted well as a senior but she has a terrible flutz and her one 3-3 attempt at SC was clearly under-rotated. Plus her presentation in her programs clearly improved over the season, it was impressive how much she improved from SC to TEB, and again from TEB to National's. To me, she sure looks like late-season bloomer. But that also means relatively little media/USFSA attention in the first part of the season. I'm sure that after this first season, if Ashley goes to World's and does well there, there will be no such over-looking next season -- then if she starts the season slowly, people might start calling her a disappointment. :laugh:
 
Well said feraina! Figure skating judging has always been controversial since before-CoP, and now that there is a secretive element added to it, there will always be complaints and controversied whenever anything "fishy" arises. I just hope this will only toughen Caroline. Good luck to her tonight. Go Caroline!
 
I've been a big talker about Caroline's jumps, especially how her 3-3 is almost always underrotated.

However, the tech caller here was retarded with downgrading the Lutz. It was short but not more than a 1/4 turn. (it definitely did deserve the "wrong edge" call, though).
 
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Actually, the slow mo they showed on NBC put it at just over a 1/4 short. Good call on a tough one.
 
Additional information

Here's some new information regarding the score changes:
http://www.startribune.com/sports/14444786.html

Late Thursday night, event referee Hal Marron explained that Zhang was officially awarded her original score because the proper protocol for changing marks was not observed. He did not say why the score was altered in the first place. Zhang's representatives said they did not ask for the revision.

I think there are two interesting points worth noting:
(1) the score was changed back to original because the "proper protocol" for changing marks was not observed, not because there was no mistake in downgrading the jump (which we already sort of knew), nor even because that it's against the rule for changing the call (which was implied otherwise by the initial piece of news that I started the thread with).
(2) Zhang's team did NOT ask for the score change.

Now I feel even even more indignant on Caroline's behalf. It sounds like the tech panel really made a mistake to begin with, and it made an additional mistake by not following the correct protocol in changing its original call. Maybe it didn't inform the event referee of the change because it was trying up to cover up the initial mistake it made? Moreover, Zhang's team did not ask for the change, while on this forum and others (it's terrible what they were saying over at FSU!), people started pointing fingers at Zhang herself as soon as the initial change was noticed -- basically implying that she's sore loser and whiny little brat for running up to the tech/judging panel before the end of the competition to complain about her scores, or else her team in collusion with USFSA were manipulating the tech panel to do illegal things.
 
Actually, the slow mo they showed on NBC put it at just over a 1/4 short. Good call on a tough one.

LOL, no it didn't. I watched that.

Then again, the rules don't define WHEN a jump is landed. Is it when the toepick touches the ice or when the blade has touched the ice? It should be the latter.

They need to go back and downgrade almost every other Lutz in this competition too if they are saying that Zhang's was not fully rotated.
 
Actually, the slow mo they showed on NBC put it at just over a 1/4 short. Good call on a tough one.

What are you talking about? You sure you weren't looking at the 3T? Everyone at FSU is crying it doesn't deserve downgrading, and trust me there are lots of haterz on that board.
 
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