What Exactly is the Value of a Jump with a -1 Wrong Edge Takeoff?

[ChrisH]

Something like that, but it would need to be more complicated than that ... See what I mean, it's not simple to do this fairly?

Yes, the scoring rules are complicated enough as is.

The wrong edge guideline is good enough as is, IMO. I'd only remove the part about negative overall grades. Although flutzes should get negative overall grades, lips should be able to get zero overall grades. When a skater flutzes, often their whole body is on the wrong edge, not just their blade. Lips tend to be just be the blade and foot on the wrong edge.

Underrotated by more than 180 degrees I think should be downgraded to the lesser-rotation jump and handled as is currently the case, and in cases where it's not part of a combination with a superior other jump the final GOE would be -2 or -3 even for a controlled landing on one foot, -3 for sure with other problems.

I was thinking of 135 degrees (that is 3/8ths of a rotation). I imagine that twisted ankle type injuries would be too common if skaters tried to fight for landings more 135 degrees short.

Between 90 (or maybe even 45 or so) and 180 degrees, I'd like to see it get a "u" or "<" that automatically deducts something from the base value of the jump separate from the GOE awarded by the judges, but possibly using the same increments as the GOEs and less than the difference between the fully rotated jump (e.g., triple) and the lesser-rotation (e.g., double) jump.

Currently, there are two guidelines for the judges:
1) Under-rotated jumps up to ¼ rev. short are supposed to have a -2 grade factored in
2) Downgraded jumps are supposed to receive a –1 to –3 grade factored in with at least a -1 grade overall
http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/ISUcomm1445.pdf

I'd replace that 1st guideline with jumps up to a 1/4 short should have a -1 grade factored in and those between 1/4 and 3/8 short should have a -2 grade factored in. The technical panel could slap on the proposed "u" for those jumps between 1/4 and 3/8 short.

The "<" (downgraded jumps) could then be reserved for jumps underrotated by more than 3/8 of a revolution. The 2nd guideline could be modified as you proposed or left unchanged.

... For a solo jump the GOE of a jump called as underrotated could be mandated to be no more than 0, but if only one jump in a combination or sequence is downgraded the GOE for the combo/sequence as a whole could be +1 or +2 if the rest of the element is good enough.

It would require an overhaul of the CoP system in order to get good judging of combinations and sequences, wouldn't it? Everything else is patchwork.

 

[gkelly]

I'd replace that 1st guideline with jumps up to a 1/4 short should have a -1 grade factored in and those between 1/4 and 3/8 short should have a -2 grade factored in. The technical panel could slap on the proposed "u" for those jumps between 1/4 and 3/8 short.

The "<" (downgraded jumps) could then be reserved for jumps underrotated by more than 3/8 of a revolution. The 2nd guideline could be modified as you proposed or left unchanged.

I like this. :thumbsup:

 

[hockeyfan228]

It's more than opinion. It's common sense to me. Pray tell me the exact Rule.

Joe

The list of deductions that specify incorrect take-off edge. This means the definition is encoded in the rulebook.

gkelly has already explained the physical difference between a flip and a flutz.

 

[GoldMedalist]

I really think much of the pro-flutz posters as a lutz gone wrong are defending the rule as is, and not considering the true lutz as is.

Nobody is "pro-flutz".

Furthermore, I do not believe in attempts. An attempt to do a double axel but singling it is no longer a double axel An attempt to do a lutz but did a flip instead is no longer a lutz.

But you're wrong on the second part. A flutz is NOT a Flip. The mechanics are simply not the same.

It always seems to come back to this blatantly wrong argument. I don't get why people keep going in the same circle.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

.gkelly has already explained the physical difference between a flip and a flutz.

But not the skating edge. I was taught that the lutz takes off on a back outside edge,and a flip takes off on a back inside edge. That's quite a difference. That's not true anymore?

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

A flutz is NOT a Flip. The mechanics are simply not the same.

I couldn't agree more. But I would add a flutz is not Lutz either. All triple jumps have 3 rotations in the air. It just doesn't conform to what is expected of a lutz, and it is closer to a Flip. If a flutz is so special it should be a legal jump on its own. The poor little skaters who can't do a proper lutz can still have their 7th or
8th jump pass.

It always seems to come back to this blatantly wrong argument. I don't get why people keep defending an illegal jump.

Joe

 

[gkelly]

I don't get why people keep defending an illegal jump.

It's not illegal.

Backflips are illegal. Detroiters are illegal. Several kinds of lifts are illegal in ice dance. Illegal moves get NO credit and also are penalized with deductions.

Flutzes are flawed lutzes. There are all sorts of ways that jumps can be flawed.

That doesn't make them illegal, it just makes them lower quality than a totally correctly performed jump, and therefore worth somewhat less.

This particular flaw just happens to have a cute nickname. That doesn't make it any more or less egregious than other flaws.

Many of these flaws also can exist in varying degrees of severity, and the mild versions are penalized less than the severe examples. It's not an either/or, black-and-white situation.

 

[vlaurend]

If a flutz is so special it should be a legal jump on its own. The poor little skaters who can't do a proper lutz can still have their 7th or
8th jump pass.

It always seems to come back to this blatantly wrong argument. I don't get why people keep defending an illegal jump.

Joe

If you had ever even attempted a single lutz, you wouldn't be so intolerant. It is very hard to stay on an outside edge with no swerve at all. It is also hard to tell when you are going onto an inside edge except on video afterwards. This is not something skaters do on purpose.

 

[Mathman]

The poor little skaters who can't do a proper lutz can still have their 7th or 8th jump pass.

Joe, I am still trying to understand what you mean by their "seventh or eighth jumping pass."

All ladies have 7 jumping passes and all men have 8 jumpring passes in the LP. How is this related to the question of flutzing?

I am a poor little skater (lady) who cannot do a proper Lutz. So I do 3F+3T, 3Lo, 3S, 2A+2T+2Lo, 3F, 3T, 2A. There's my seven passes. (?)

 

[GoldMedalist]

I couldn't agree more. But I would add a flutz is not Lutz either. All triple jumps have 3 rotations in the air. It just doesn't conform to what is expected of a lutz, and it is closer to a Flip

I don't think it's closer to a Flip at all because the entrance is that of a Lutz.

This whole thing is overblown. It's such a minute thing to focus on so obsessively when there is a whole performance in front of you.

Just out of curiosity, do you despise it when a Toeloop takes off from the inside edge (a Wally)?

I am a poor little skater (lady) who cannot do a proper Lutz. So I do 3F+3T, 3Lo, 3S, 2A+2T+2Lo, 3F, 3T, 2A. There's my seven passes. (?)

I think that's what he means. They should do a Double Axel instead of a Flutz, always.

 

[Mathman]

Just out of curiosity, do you despise it when a Toeloop takes off from the inside edge (a Wally)?

Actually, that's an interesting question. A Wally is not a listed jump, right? So the CoP gives 0 credit for a Wally?

Or do they just assume it was supposed to be a toeloop and score it like that?

 

[gkelly]

Actually, that's an interesting question. A Wally is not a listed jump, right? So the CoP gives 0 credit for a Wally?

That is correct.
Walleys have almost never been done as doubles. They're often done as single jumps and are currently considered as connecting moves only and have no base value.

Or do they just assume it was supposed to be a toeloop and score it like that?

One would never confuse a toe loop for a walley. The former is a toe jump and the latter is an edge jump.

A toe loop could easily be confused with a toe walley -- they are very similar jumps, both toe jumps. The ISU decided back in 1982 that toe loop and toe walley would be considered the same jump for purposes of counting jump repeats. Triple toe loop or triple toe walley would both be worth 4.0 in the current scale of values.

A walley (without the toepick assist) is more similar to a loop (without toepick assist).

If there were a base value for a single walley, then skaters would have to be careful to make sure they took off from the inside edge. Otherwise they might risk having the jump called as a single loop if they were never on the inside edge or getting a wrong edge call if they started on the inside and shifted to outside just before takeoff.

 

[dorispulaski]

A toe loop could easily be confused with a toe walley -- they are very similar jumps, both toe jumps. The ISU decided back in 1982 that toe loop and toe walley would be considered the same jump for purposes of counting jump repeats. Triple toe loop or triple toe walley would both be worth 4.0 in the current scale of values.

For those who wonder what was so significant in 1982 that the toe loop and the toe walley had to be designated the same jump, the problem was that Elaine Zayak could do both a toe loop and a toe walley about as many times as she wanted to in a program. To make the Zayak rule effective in limiting Zayak's technical content, not only did the rules have to limit the number of times any one jump could be done, they also had to define two jumps as the same jump. (BTW, Zayak's toe walleys and loops were distinguishable).

Elaine's 1980 World LP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRPmjwywj0A

Elaine's 1981 World LP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdHorxKW-mw

What was more annoying, they continued to allow skaters to land as many double axels as they could in a program, which was completely arbitrary.

 

[Mathman]

Thanks Dorispulaski and Gkelly for the history and technical info. Very cool.

 

[dorispulaski]

If a toe walley is a toe loop...

perhaps we should also define the lutz and flip as the same jump. Period, and cease to kvetch about the takeoff.

Re the Zayak rule, can you tell that the arbitrariness of the Zayak rule still annoys me some 25 years later

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

If you had ever even attempted a single lutz, you wouldn't be so intolerant. It is very hard to stay on an outside edge with no swerve at all. It is also hard to tell when you are going onto an inside edge except on video afterwards. This is not something skaters do on purpose.

There's a counterotation action with a true lutz. If you think it is too hard to do a proper lutz, then all you have to do is rockover on the back inside edge and forget about the counterrotation take off. Presently, you will get the same base value for a proper lutz (definition ignored). However, there maybe a little e near your jump in the protocols, if the Tech Specialist catches it.

Alternatively, a Flutzing skater might think about working on it after competition, to make it a proper lutz rather than sob over its difficulty.

Why not leave the difficult lutz out of one's routine? It's not required, and in CoP there are so many ways to make points. If working on a proper lutz is too tiring then work on getting 180 degree spirals.

Better still, why not petition the ISU to make a Flutz jump legal and leave the proper Lutz to the skaters who can do it.

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

perhaps we should also define the lutz and flip as the same jump. Period, and cease to kvetch about the takeoff.

Re the Zayak rule, can you tell that the arbitrariness of the Zayak rule still annoys me some 25 years later

I'm all for legalizing the Flutz and getting it out of the way of Lutz. Those who can meet the challenge and do a Lutz by definition, should get a higher base value. Those who can not meet the challenge can do a Flutz. That should satisfy the Lutzers and Flutzers.

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The Toe Wally, if it were permitted would give the Tech Speclst, a further edge spying job. The Toe Wally is the mirror image of a Toe Lutz. They have definitions and many skaters can not meet the challenge of toeing off on the defined edge.

All jumps rotate in the same direction. What makes them different is the edge of the takeoffs. One must get credit for a jump by following the definitions. A Loop jump takes off on a back outside edge and lands on a back outside. A Salchow jump takes off on a back inside edge and lands on a back outside. A Toe loop jump takes off on a back outside edge and lands on a back outside. A Flip jump takes off on a back inside edge and lands on a back outside. All these jumps turn in the air in the same direction depending on the skater. It's only the take off edge that is different.

Even the Lutz turns in the air in the same direction, but its take off edge is on the opposite foot of a Toe Loop and causes a minor discomfort which one has to get used to. (It is NOT a Toe Loop.) The Lutz landing is the same as all the above named jumps.

Some will say the defined Lutz is too hard, well that's more the definition of Sport getting in their way. Like the Marathon, it ain't easy but there are other races which are. Others will say it's ok to change the actual take off edge (see above for how important take off edges are) and get full credit for the jump less a penalty because an attempt was noticed.. I disagree. There was no lutz to begin with.

Joe

 

[hockeyfan228]

All jumps rotate in the same direction. What makes them different is the edge of the takeoffs. One must get credit for a jump by following the definitions. A Loop jump takes off on a back outside edge and lands on a back outside. A Salchow jump takes off on a back inside edge and lands on a back outside. A Toe loop jump takes off on a back outside edge and lands on a back outside. A Flip jump takes off on a back inside edge and lands on a back outside. All these jumps turn in the air in the same direction depending on the skater. It's only the take off edge that is different.

In your world and hierarchy of values, that is true. In the world of judged figure skating, there are a number of factors that determine how a jump is classified, and take-off edge isn't the determining factor. As a result, when these definitions are breached, there is a specified penalty, not a reclassification.

 

[Mathman]

perhaps we should also define the lutz and flip as the same jump. Period, and cease to kvetch about the takeoff.

Actually, that's an intriguing thought

First, we need a name for this new catch-all jump. We could call it ... the flutz!

They could give a bonus (like the Russian federation did at Russian Nationals this year) for any skater who can do both variants of this jump in the same program. If a lady has the goods she could do

3A, 3flutz(O.E.)+3T, 3flutz(I.E.), 3Lo+2Lo, 3S, 3T, 2A+2T+2Lo -- a perfectly balanced 7 triple program satisfying all Zayak conditions and earning the bonus for both edges.

This is way better than what ladies pretty much have to do under the present scoring system. 3F+3T, 3F, 3Lz(e)+2T, 3Lz(e). Well, that's 6 jumps so far, all toe jumps.