Caroline Zhang - the most graceful of the bunch
- Thread starter gio
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- Joined
- Oct 5, 2007
Mirai can do Zhang's signature layback, but certainly not as well as Carolyn. I also love Carolyn's natural grace, but she didn't have a good time at Nationals, and she looked especially slow. I'm hoping she does well at jr. worlds.
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
I think that Marai could be as graceful as caroline, but really needs a new chrographer. Nori could work wonders. As it is, Caroline is deffinelty the most graceful of any of the u.s ladies and one of the best in the world!
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2003
Mirai's choregrapher is Lori already.
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2006
This is the myth we've been hearing on internet boards over and over. How many have actually seen her skate live to tell she is 'so sloooooooooooow'?
If she was really as slow as many of her detractors had been complaining, she would not have scored 6+ in PCS for the senior international debut.
Caroline Zhang tends to slow down a bit at the end of her program, but she is not SLOW. Without seeing her live, you have to watch video clips with some reference points(moving boards etc) to gauge her speed & flow. I suggest every detractor take a deep breath and watch the following clips to get some ideas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coNCT09LYnc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4whtBGdapY
Remember this was 2006, and she already had good flow and decent speed,the speed going into each jump was actually very impressive.
Compare Caroline Zhang's speed with Joannie's in the following clip with reference points(moving boards), it's not like one is in heaven, the other is in hell...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbrkzJvdk44
Of course if you want to compare both to Carolina Kostner/Mao, there's a big difference.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVQ7wdYtAi8
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She's a natural! She was born to perform!
I've heard critiques that she has poor skating skills. I'm assuming that means her stroking and turns and edges are not as refined as they should be. I'm not really an expert. Are these critiques accurate?
Nevertheless, I think she's a beautiful skater.
I've heard critiques that she has poor skating skills. I'm assuming that means her stroking and turns and edges are not as refined as they should be. I'm not really an expert. Are these critiques accurate?
Nevertheless, I think she's a beautiful skater.
I actually thought she did look slow in the first two references, but it's amazing that a 12 year old was even doing all those things she was doing. I think we need to remember that she is much smaller and so she really can't go as fast as Carolina Kostner. Look at their body size. It's the difference between a girl and an almost fully mature figure. I think as Zhang grows her muscles will develop and the speed will come.
I do think Caroline is slow. When she's off, she's painfully slow - like her US Nationals SP, where she entered her double axel from almost a standstill. A lot of people use the argument you're using - she's small, she'll be faster once she's older - but other skaters who are her same size or smaller, like Mirai Nagasu and Angela Maxwell have plenty of speed. So she might be faster once she's older, but her size alone cannot be the reason for her slowness.
As for the OP - she has very beautiful positions and wonderful carriage; I don't know if I agree that she's the most graceful of the 4 top US ladies, though.
I was not comparing her to Carolina Kostner or Mao or Yu-Na, those ladies have top-notched speed. I was comparing her to other 'top-tier' skaters such as Joannie. I don't find her visibly slower than Joannie from those clips I demonstrated. Maybe Joannie is slow in real time, and maybe that's the reason Joannie does not get very high PCS, which her fans have been constantly complaining and demanding.
- Joined
- May 17, 2007
Can someone please clarify as to what good basic skating is? I know it deals with proper stroking and edging or whatever, but I just don't see how Caroline has bad basic skating. Is her stroking too jagged? Is she not fluid enough? Are the edges in her spirals not deep enough? Does she skate on the flat too much?
Also, I just don't get the speed thing. She doesn't look that slow to me. In fact--and mathman brought this up--it doesn't seem like any of the pieces she skates to(with the exception of Spanish Gypsy) need to be fast. I would think there would be a problem with her speed if she couldn't keep up with the music. In Ave Maria, however, it seems like everything has its place--every spiral, every spin, every jump. Frankly, it seems, to me, that if she were to speed up, it would detract from the grace and solemnity of her program.
On a side note, I loved that spiral in Olga! Is it just me or does anyone else think that the camera angles on tv don't capture it well enough? It seems like they just close in on her upper body.
EDIT: In reference to the Joannie clips...she (Joannie) doesn't get high PCS either.
Also, I just don't get the speed thing. She doesn't look that slow to me. In fact--and mathman brought this up--it doesn't seem like any of the pieces she skates to(with the exception of Spanish Gypsy) need to be fast. I would think there would be a problem with her speed if she couldn't keep up with the music. In Ave Maria, however, it seems like everything has its place--every spiral, every spin, every jump. Frankly, it seems, to me, that if she were to speed up, it would detract from the grace and solemnity of her program.
On a side note, I loved that spiral in Olga! Is it just me or does anyone else think that the camera angles on tv don't capture it well enough? It seems like they just close in on her upper body.
EDIT: In reference to the Joannie clips...she (Joannie) doesn't get high PCS either.
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I definitely agree she's the most graceful of the young American skaters. She's a natural performer, on top of that she has really improved on her posture this year. She has a more upright upper body carriage now, as well as a straighter free leg, whereas she was letting her free leg hang sometimes in previous years, including entry to jumps and connecting steps. It's amazing how much more graceful it has made her look, just because she's paying more attention to her free leg.
I think Mirai is still at the stage where she's neglecting her free leg. She has so much natural talent, I feel like if she only paid more attention to it, she could make it look as graceful as anyone. It's particularly glaring at the beginning of her layback spins, where she just legs her free leg hang and the knee bent, it just looks awkward -- it doesn't start looking great until she catches it with her hand, and therefore hides the ungangly free leg. The catch-foot position, after all, was invented to hide ugly laybacks and spirals (e.g. Irina Slutskaya).
For that matter, Yu-na Kim also does this sometimes, though she's better this year. The skater who's made the most progress in this respect this year is Mao! She's looking so much more graceful now than before! It's all because she's paying much more attention to pointing her toes, extending the knees, turning out the hips -- all the things that a ballerina focuses a great deal on. She's just a counter-example for all those who believe that a skater learns the layback either the classical way or the bent-knee way, and can't change from one to the other. She's proven that myth a total rubbish.
I think Mirai is still at the stage where she's neglecting her free leg. She has so much natural talent, I feel like if she only paid more attention to it, she could make it look as graceful as anyone. It's particularly glaring at the beginning of her layback spins, where she just legs her free leg hang and the knee bent, it just looks awkward -- it doesn't start looking great until she catches it with her hand, and therefore hides the ungangly free leg. The catch-foot position, after all, was invented to hide ugly laybacks and spirals (e.g. Irina Slutskaya).
For that matter, Yu-na Kim also does this sometimes, though she's better this year. The skater who's made the most progress in this respect this year is Mao! She's looking so much more graceful now than before! It's all because she's paying much more attention to pointing her toes, extending the knees, turning out the hips -- all the things that a ballerina focuses a great deal on. She's just a counter-example for all those who believe that a skater learns the layback either the classical way or the bent-knee way, and can't change from one to the other. She's proven that myth a total rubbish.
If her speed is comparable to Joannie(22 yo?) at age of 14/15, I don't see what all the fuss over how 'slow' Carolina Zhang is all about.
Disagree. Her speed into each jump is not even faster than Caroline Zhang's. Her footwork almost came to a halt. Joannie is powerful, so she appears speedy on TV when camera only captures close-up shot and shows no reference points... But from that clip, I think Joannie is definitely much slower than skaters ranking above her(Kostner/Mao/Yu Na).
Here's a clip of Yu-Na's practice. You can see she is definitely much faster than Zhang/Joannie...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_aSHdGeOu0
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- Joined
- Feb 17, 2007
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
Well I am not really impressed with Marai's SP at all.. it seems very childish. Her LP is very cute... I love when she does the little doll moves and the split jumps with her hand behind her back, but I feel that she dosen't carry the theme throught.
I agree that Caroline has that 'it" factor that sasha and naomi had. They knew how to use the music and perform and an extremly young age. If you don't believe me watch caroline's SP at the GPF again. As for her basic skating, I do not see anything wrong with it. True she does not get that much power, but her toes are always pointed, her arms are always in the right place... the only probelm is her jumps take-off,s which wobble from edge to egde. You have to give her kuddos for greatly lessening the "mule kick" on her lutz and esp on her flip.
I do not see why everyone is calling her so slow. True, has a bad habit of entering her 2 axels VERY slowly... i dont know why.. she appears scared of them. If you saw her live though you would see that she actually has a lot of speed, esp entering her other jumps compared to other senior ladies.
