Skate Canada to allow any 2 athletes to compete together in ice dance, pairs

[4everchan]

On Ice Perspectives..
“Just The Two Of Us..”
More Please!!!

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I love it !!!! The power and speed and the elegance

 

[HazyD]

This is nothing but great. Not at all worried about "how it will work." Those things will come. Just super-excited to see what this gateway to a fuller potential for expression will yield. Proud of my neighbor to the north.

 

[mrrice]

I think it’s much easier to imagine in ice dance. Sure there are lifts, but a variety of types are are allowed. I’ve seen all-female synchro teams do lifts.

I agree. Also, if a pair team are both strong singles skaters, it will be interesting to see how long they stay together. I think about Kristi and Rudy who both had strong skating skills. They eventually separated as training time and focus between pairs and singles became too much.

 

[Lurker11]

Skate Canada fiddles while the ISU burns.

If only this energy was put into improving the show, the promotion, giving skaters greater opportunities to earn money from their sport.

I'd hate to see a 155cm female in a F/M pair denied a medal because she's up against a 155cm male with ripped physique and no body fat in a M/M pair. A female facing this type of competition from men might feel compelled to resort to dangerous diets remain competitive. As for competing with a male athlete for strength, power, muscle it's impossible for a female.

It doesn't bother me one way or another as long as no female is disadvantaged.

 

[DancingCactus]

Calling women females is what I find worrying, but whatever. Also, this IS good promotion.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Wouldnt this give male and male parthership an unfair advantage? Male are biologically stronger and have greater core strength so they will likely fare better being thrown up/across the ice and men generally are better at jumps. You can see in almost every pair routine it is usually the female who messes up the jumps. That is if the "girl" male is lighter like a male singles skater weight. I'm sure a lot of the slight male singles skater probably weight similar to female pair skater who are usually more muscular than female singles.

The jumps is just one aspect.

Women generally tend to be more flexible than men (of course with exceptions), so elements like lifts and split twists and death spirals (getting low/arched enough) would be physically tougher. This also lends itself to greater extension and finesse. Elements like twists and lifts are worth way more than SBS jumps or throws.

If you look at Acrobatic Gymnastics they do have same sex categories:

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It’s likely that physique would play into it as it has traditionally helped pairs/ID when one member is much larger, but there are exceptions too (like Guignard/Fabri).

Other traditionally same sex judged sports like synchro skating and swimming and diving have all adopted mixed gender inclusion and so I don’t see why it can’t go the other way around.

Congrats to Skate Canada for promoting this inclusion!

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Skate Canada fiddles while the ISU burns.

If only this energy was put into improving the show, the promotion, giving skaters greater opportunities to earn money from their sport.

I'd hate to see a 155cm female in a F/M pair denied a medal because she's up against a 155cm male with ripped physique and no body fat in a M/M pair. A female facing this type of competition from men might feel compelled to resort to dangerous diets remain competitive. As for competing with a male athlete for strength, power, muscle it's impossible for a female.

It doesn't bother me one way or another as long as no female is disadvantaged.

Tbh while power and strength could be an advantage with a M/M couple I think they would be particularly disadvantaged because of striving to achieve the lines and aesthetics needed for pairs skating or ice dance and lacking the flexibility and finesse

And in Canada, it’s not like men who could do quads/triple axels would give up singles to train to do pairs because if they could do quads/triple axels they would focus on singles (which was a reason Eric Radford quit singles because he couldn’t master the 3A - but it worked out!). One of the reasons most pairs in the world don’t do as hard SBS jumps as singles skaters is because they have to focus on so many other elements and things like unison and body lines that singles skaters don’t have to worry about as much. Pairs skating is way more than the jumps.

Certainly in ice dancing power isn’t as important as expression and innovation and you’d need a very flexible not so buff partner in a M/M couple to execute some of those lifts and it could look super awkward with two guys if their physiques clash with each other in the elements.

 

[Lurker11]

Tbh while power and strength could be an advantage with a M/M couple I think they would be particularly disadvantaged because of striving to achieve the lines and aesthetics needed for pairs skating or ice dance and lacking the flexibility and finesse

And in Canada, it’s not like men who could do quads/triple axels would give up singles to train to do pairs because if they could do quads/triple axels they would focus on singles (which was a reason Eric Radford quit singles because he couldn’t master the 3A - but it worked out!). One of the reasons most pairs in the world don’t do as hard SBS jumps as singles skaters is because they have to focus on so many other elements and things like unison and body lines that singles skaters don’t have to worry about as much. Pairs skating is way more than the jumps.

Certainly in ice dancing power isn’t as important as expression and innovation and you’d need a very flexible not so buff partner in a M/M couple to execute some of those lifts and it could look super awkward with two guys if their physiques clash with each other in the elements.

Good points.

 

[TontoK]

Calling women females is what I find worrying, but whatever. Also, this IS good promotion.

Well, "ladies" is passe, and "women" might include individuals who would not qualify as women in Olympic competition, so I can understand the confusion and hesitation of good-intentioned members to try and avoid offense.

Also I disagree with your characterization that this is good promotion. I think it's ridiculous and short-sighted, but time will tell.

 

[el henry]

Well, "ladies" is passe, and "women" might include individuals who would not qualify as women in Olympic competition, so I can understand the confusion and hesitation of good-intentioned members to try and avoid offense.

Also I disagree with your characterization that this is good promotion. I think it's ridiculous and short-sighted, but time will tell.

But isn't that up to the Olympic governing bodies to say who qualifies and who doesn't? We don't say that about singles skaters, oh, look at that "female" Kaori Sakamoto.

As an old cis woman, never, in my whole long life, have I called myself a "female". And I am not about to gatekeep for others at this point in my life.

Personally, I think these new ideas are exciting and will expand the reach of the sport. But you are right, neither you nor I can tell the future. So time will tell, and those who are much younger than me will be the ones doing the telling.

 

[TontoK]

But isn't that up to the Olympic governing bodies to say who qualifies and who doesn't? We don't say that about singles skaters, oh, look at that "female" Kaori Sakamoto.

As an old cis woman, never, in my whole long life, have I called myself a "female". And I am not about to gatekeep for others at this point in my life.

Personally, I think these new ideas are exciting and will expand the reach of the sport. But you are right, neither you nor I can tell the future. So time will tell, and those who are much younger than me will be the ones doing the telling.

I don't claim expertise in this area, but I don't think so.

I think there's actually an Olympic test, and man/woman or male/female is determined by testosterone levels.

So someone might claim to be a woman and might live daily life as a woman, but would be ineligible to compete as a woman if the bloodwork does not come back right.

This has been an issue with some runners who have less-than-clearcut gender biology.

 

[4everchan]

I think it's ridiculous and short-sighted, but time will tell.

I believe the change in semantics (the definition of what a team is, two athletes, instead of a man and a woman) is anything but short-sighted.

Let me explain : children I work with learn about sexual identity from a very young age. One of my young musicians, grade 5, so about 11 years old, told me all about non-binary individuals the other day. Also, a friend of mine has a kid who is exploring their identity, including name and pronoun changes. While it was almost inconceivable to just come out as homosexual 20 years ago, especially in sports, it is "almost" common now.. I witness a similar movement with teenagers, even children, not in terms of their sexual orientation but about their gender identity.

Skate Canada is simply allowing ALL children of today to feel safe and accepted within the broad skating community in Canada. This will have no impact on today's elite athletes (exception : a skater like Tim, in a traditional pairing, would be recognized truly and not exceptionally, as non-binary by the Federation instead of "male") ...perhaps not even for the next ten-twenty years or so, and perhaps even never on the sport as we know it internationally. The change is targeting young Canadian skaters, giving them a positive space within skating clubs and domestic events, and broadening partnering opportunities at early levels. I think that's cool. YMMV.

 

[el henry]

I don't claim expertise in this area, but I don't think so.

I think there's actually an Olympic test, and man/woman or male/female is determined by testosterone levels.

So someone might claim to be a woman and might live daily life as a woman, but would be ineligible to compete as a woman if the bloodwork does not come back right.

This has been an issue with some runners who have less-than-clearcut gender biology.

I understand and I think we agree about what governing bodies are doing, but what I am saying is, that is up to the governing body to make that determination, not fans.

So it is indeed up to the Olympic governing body to determine if certain athletes can participate in competitions in the women's category. But that doesn't mean the athletes are not women in other aspects of their lives, it just means they're not eligible to participate in that category.

And all this is far afield from Skate Canada's proposal anyway. Indeed, the SC proposal would mean no one ever has to use gender-based terms. Any and all pairings would be welcome, would be judged accordingly, and competition would be opened up.

Now whether it will work, I agree, remains to be seen. I have no crystal ball. Just my personal opinion, I hope it does.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Skate Canada fiddles while the ISU burns.

If only this energy was put into improving the show, the promotion, giving skaters greater opportunities to earn money from their sport.

I'd hate to see a 155cm female in a F/M pair denied a medal because she's up against a 155cm male with ripped physique and no body fat in a M/M pair. A female facing this type of competition from men might feel compelled to resort to dangerous diets remain competitive. As for competing with a male athlete for strength, power, muscle it's impossible for a female.

It doesn't bother me one way or another as long as no female is disadvantaged.

It is worth noting that international spots will not be effected by this, as there are no international events under ISU rules allowing this. However, I guess the argument is for those who want national titles to their name. In the instance that it takes off, I'm sure they will have separate sex categories in the future.

 

[Ziotic]

I’m at a loss that so many people are like “but girls can’t lift” simply look at a sport like cheerleading. There are women who do overhead lifts with women.

Alternatively how many GP galas have we seen Jin do death spirals or lifts/throws with Yuzu? A ton!

We also have tons of pairs/dance teams where the partners are relatively close in size.

 

[skatesofgold]

I’m at a loss that so many people are like “but girls can’t lift” simply look at a sport like cheerleading. There are women who do overhead lifts with women.

Alternatively how many GP galas have we seen Jin do death spirals or lifts/throws with Yuzu? A ton!

We also have tons of pairs/dance teams where the partners are relatively close in size.

Yeah, there's sport acrobatics in gymnastics, too.

 

[WednesdayMarch]

I look forward to seeing what happens. This may result in some really artistically interesting work and I'm all for that. I'm also all for everybody playing nicely. The world is constantly changing and not always for the better, so anything that aims at inclusion rather than exclusion is worth exploring. Let's see what happens!

 

[gkelly]

I’m at a loss that so many people are like “but girls can’t lift” simply look at a sport like cheerleading. There are women who do overhead lifts with women.

Yes, and synchronized skating also has women lifting women. But there are generally two or more lifters for each liftee.

And/or, the lifts involve body-to-body contact with lower center of gravity (i.e., dance lifts/transitional lifts) and not overhead lifts where the only point of contact, overhead, is the single lifter's hands on the liftee's body.

The latter kinds of lifts are required elements in pair skating as it is currently practiced, at least from novice level and above.

Alternatively how many GP galas have we seen Jin do death spirals or lifts/throws with Yuzu? A ton!

I have no doubt that women can throw women, or smaller men, although the skater being thrown may need to do more of the work herself than in a typical mixed pair team.

Yeah, there's sport acrobatics in gymnastics, too.

I checked out some videos. Yes, there we have examples of full-grown young women holding smaller younger teen girls overhead. So that is evidence that it can be done, but only with significant size and probably age difference.

To the extent that the idea is to open up opportunities for girls and women to compete in a couples discipline that might not otherwise be possible for them because of body type, location, and/or availability of opposite-sex partners, I would think that a discipline that emphasizes other types of skills that well-matched partners (in terms of maturity and skating ability) can do together would be more welcoming than one that relies so much on size difference, which tends to be fairly extreme among mixed-sex teams.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

It is worth noting that international spots will not be effected by this, as there are no international events under ISU rules allowing this. However, I guess the argument is for those who want national titles to their name. In the instance that it takes off, I'm sure they will have separate sex categories in the future.

Yep, if there are enough nontraditional pairs at the elite level, separate categories would be the way to go. The Paralympics show that it's possible to both promote inclusion and make an effort to maintain a level playing field.
To some extent adult competitions are like this too, with events split across both age and ability. Most participants welcome the (rare for adults) chance to compete with more evenly matched skaters.

I’m at a loss that so many people are like “but girls can’t lift” simply look at a sport like cheerleading. There are women who do overhead lifts with women.

Yes, and synchronized skating also has women lifting women. But there are generally two or more lifters for each liftee.

And/or, the lifts involve body-to-body contact with lower center of gravity (i.e., dance lifts/transitional lifts) and not overhead lifts where the only point of contact, overhead, is the single lifter's hands on the liftee's body.

The latter kinds of lifts are required elements in pair skating as it is currently practiced, at least from novice level and above.

I agree with points that @gkelly raised. Axel lasso lifts (for example) are a staple requirement for top pairs, not to mention essential level features like difficult entries, one-hand, liftee changing position etc. which all vastly increase the strength demands on the lifter.

Also even male skaters who are good lifters with small partners (Massot, Radford) have struggled with back injury. This reminds me of one argument for raising the age limit for women's singles. Skaters with mature bodies were supposedly pushing their bodies to the limit and getting injured trying to learn 3A and quads to stay on an equal footing with competitors with pre-pubertal bodies who could do the same elements more easily. The same logic applies to pairs lifts when teams with very different physiques compete together.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

If other countries are not allowing this…I just don’t see how this is going to work

It's just a start. For change to happen, it has to begin somewhere. One small step by Skate Canada, one giant leap for progressive change in figure skating!