What rule changes would you like to see next season?

[yesterday]

I want to see the PCS numbers changed though, for 1 serious error (fall or invalid element) i think the max PCS eligible should be a 9, 2 serious serious errors 8.5 or 8 and so on, to me 9-10 PCS marks should be reserved for clean skates or skates where the most serious errors are under-rotations or edge calls

But isn't this to some extent also happening right now? When e.g. fans complain about low PCS for skaters with certain mistakes (or just because they skate early, which is something I would like to see forbidden by the rules...)?

When some details don't work out, but the elite skater does not skate less elite in terms of Skating Skills beacuse of that but gets less points? Ofc PCS should not be used to set skater X to position Y artificially.

But I doubt that mandatory deductions would increase the level of overall skating or help presentation or whatever. It would just make skaters even more nervous about making mistakes -> more mistakes will happen.

 

[Amei]

But isn't this to some extent also happening right now? When e.g. fans complain about low PCS for skaters with certain mistakes (or just because they skate early, which is something I would like to see forbidden by the rules...)?

No, there have been instances of skaters have poor skates and still receiving very high PCS.

When some details don't work out, but the elite skater does not skate less elite in terms of Skating Skills beacuse of that but gets less points? Ofc PCS should not be used to set skater X to position Y artificially.

Skating skills are just a portion of PCS, there is also performance and composition of which get impacted and part of skating skills is the ability to execute and blade/body control - if you're falling/popping elements those for the most part are examples of lapses in your ability to execute, blade/body control even if just momentarily.

But I doubt that mandatory deductions would increase the level of overall skating or help presentation or whatever. It would just make skaters even more nervous about making mistakes -> more mistakes will happen.

Well part of competing at an elite level is the mental aspect

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Bring pattern back in dance.

 

[gkelly]

Re falls:

Mostly from memory (i.e., I'm not going to go back through 18 years worth of rule changes to verify exactly which year each rule change was introduced), the changes were more or less as follows:

The 1.00-point fall deduction was in place as of the 2004-05 season, i.e., the first year that IJS was used officially. I think it had not been around for the fall 2003 test events (Nebelhorn and Grand Prix).

Because of complaints, including from fans at Golden Skate some of whom suggested similar changes, a few years ago the fall rules for senior singles events were changed such that the first two falls in a program earn -1.00 each, the third and fourth fall each earn deductions of -2.00 each, and for more falls than that the later ones would earn -3.00 each. So a program with 5 falls gets -9.00 in fall deductions.

A few years after that, maximum PCS ceilings were introduced for programs with falls. Currently,

Serious errors are falls and/or mistakes which result in a break in the delivery of the program. This break can be minimal or more pronounced and noticeable. These errors must be reflected in the mark awarded for each program component. The consequence depends on the severity and impact they have on the fluidity and continuity of the program.

and

*When there is only one error and this error minimally impacts the program, the maximum score of 9.50 is possible as noted above. Note: For the above to apply, the program as a whole is still deemed to be “Excellent”.
**When there are 2 or more errors and these errors only minimally impact the program, the maximum score of 8.75 is possible.

With the +3/-3 GOE system, there were originally mandatory final GOEs for certain errors including falls, which needed to be -3. Later the mandatory final GOEs were relaxed, to encourage judges to award positive aspects first and then reduce for errors. So elements that have several positive characteristics before a fall can earn scores higher than -3 in the old system, -5 in the current scoring, although the final score would still be negative.

E.g., in the current rules a jump or especially a jump combination can earn -3 or -4 if there were enough positive aspects for judges to start from +1 or +2 before subtracting the -5 for a fall.

(There is currently only one mandatory -GOE, in the short program only: mandatory -5 for a jump combination in which only one jump meets the requirements and the other does not, or does not exist.)

The change from +3/-3 to +5/-5 standardized the percentage value of the positive and negative GOEs relative to the base value of the elements, so now an element with -5 GOE will earn exactly half of the base value (which in the case of jumps might be reduced by rotation and/or edge calls). Any fall deductions would be in addition to that GOE penalty.

None of these penalties on their own cancel out the value of successfully rotating a triple or quad jump. But the possibility of penalizing falls in GOE and in PCS and in fall deductions means that there is flexibility to build up significant penalties for really disruptive falls -- and especially for really disrupted programs with multiple falls -- with much lesser penalties for otherwise excellent performances than contain one quick fall with quick recovery, and intermediate penalties for a range of disruptiveness in between.

 

[gkelly]

Ban the corridor PCS scoring. It is ridiculous and should be illegal. It makes this sport's scoring an outright joke.

The "corridor" is not being used to evaluate judges' use of PCS this season.

https://isu.org/inside-isu/isu-communications/communications/29324-isu-communication-2503/file

Also make judges paid and hired employees accountable to the terms and conditions of their contract instead of unaccountable volunteers they have been for ages.

I like this idea, not just for accountability and professionalism but also to compensate them for time and effort spent training, which can be quite extensive going up the levels. IIRC they do get some compensation for things like travelling to competition, but not a lot.

So how would this work? All ISU-level judges would be hired by the ISU after proving themselves at lower levels and would thereafter be assigned and paid by the ISU with no input from their home federations?

What about international-level judges (i.e., those still working their way up to ISU level)?

Would professionalizing judges mean that those on the ISU payroll would be assigned to many competitions per year, enough to earn a living just through judging -- especially if they live in Europe where there are many international competitions within easy travel distance -- while those who live in more remote locations would receive fewer assignments and have less opportunity to earn money this way?

If the professionalization applies to International as well as ISU judges, how should prospective international judges be accepted into the training process? Would experience judging at domestic competitions in their home countries be valuable information to include on their applications, with the understanding that opportunities to judge domestically would vary depending on the number of domestic competitions and the number of judges within those countries? And any interested domestic judge or would-be judge could apply, without needing to be nominated by their federations?

Would there be an explicit effort to recruit and train judges from all around the world, or would there be a de facto preference for judges from large skating countries who would already have more experience judging elite as well as lower level skaters?

How much more would this cost the ISU than the current volunteer system, and where would the money come from?

 

[4everchan]

Professionalization of judges seems difficult for the ISU. It's done in other sports, whether it is professional leagues (NHL, NFL, NBA etc) or tennis. (ATP and WTA). I don't see geography as an obstacle. If the ISU had enough money to do that, they could train judges and give them a yearly income that would be sufficient. For instance, during the low-season, judges would be trained and updated etc and being paid doing so, and would go on the circuit, traveling all fall and winter. I am sure there are people who would embrace this lifestyle, though it is obviously not for everyone. Judges would report to the ISU and the ISU would need to assess the competence of said judges.
Would fans feel that the judging is more or less biased this way? I have no idea. It is often debated that stronger, larger federations may have more power than others within the ISU. So, I don't know how this would work out and be perceived.
I doubt we will ever find out anyway : it would cost a lot of money.

 

[karne]

If the ISU had enough money to do that, they could train judges and give them a yearly income that would be sufficient.

But how do they pick the judges at international level? Do they ask for randoms to apply? Are judges still required to have judging experience beforehand?

I really don't think you or a lot of others making these remarks understand exactly how many years' training judges and officials do before they go to Oberstdorf. It can take fifteen, twenty years to be ready, and just going to Oberstdorf doesn't mean you pass.

And what happens at domestic level? If you judge domestically does that mean you give up any right to judge internationally?

It's just so full of holes.

 

[4everchan]

But how do they pick the judges at international level? Do they ask for randoms to apply? Are judges still required to have judging experience beforehand?

I really don't think you or a lot of others making these remarks understand exactly how many years' training judges and officials do before they go to Oberstdorf. It can take fifteen, twenty years to be ready, and just going to Oberstdorf doesn't mean you pass.

And what happens at domestic level? If you judge domestically does that mean you give up any right to judge internationally?

It's just so full of holes.

It's full of holes because there is no point laying done a modus operandi when, clearly, one believes that the ISU wouldn't do it, because of lack of funds.

But if there were a will, if there were money, and since you insist, the valid points you are raising would no longer be concerns. Training to become a professional judge would not be done the same way as training to become a volunteer judge, over years and years etc. People who are ISU judges now do not do it as a job... it's a completely different model here that was mentioned. I don't think the people who were discussing this topic are oblivious of the current long and winding road judges go through to pass their exams...

Going professional would require a specific and intensive training, fast-tracked and rigorous but would come with a paid job and responsibilities. There is already a hierarchy in judges at the ISU... There would still be one in place, allowing volunteer judges to keep evaluating local/smaller/lower level competitions.

This is not new. It's done in many other sports. Tennis kids, hockey kids, etc do not get professional referees, and figure skating kids wouldn't either. We were talking about getting professional judges for the professional athletes of figure skating, for instance, GP circuit (there is prize money involved) or ISU championships.

Some rule changes only require a decision to be taken like "bring back the pattern dance"

Others require a complete makeover of the current system and a transition period. Professionalization of the judges would do so, and there are various ways to implement such a change, if the conditions were present.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

After watching the Russian Nationals Women's SP, I'd really like to see the ISU do more to address prerotation. Kamila's toe pick triples are really bad from that perspective, and I have no idea why because she does her 4T beautifully. It's the same with most of Eteri's skaters, including the SP winner who also executes the 3A wonderfully and is obviously cabaple of doing much better toe pick triples. It's unfortunate that they can get full rotation credit and extremely genrous GOE on those particular jumps.

 

[gkelly]

It's full of holes because there is no point laying done a modus operandi when, clearly, one believes that the ISU wouldn't do it, because of lack of funds.

But if there were a will, if there were money, and since you insist, the valid points you are raising would no longer be concerns. Training to become a professional judge would not be done the same way as training to become a volunteer judge, over years and years etc. People who are ISU judges now do not do it as a job... it's a completely different model here that was mentioned. I don't think the people who were discussing this topic are oblivious of the current long and winding road judges go through to pass their exams...

Going professional would require a specific and intensive training, fast-tracked and rigorous but would come with a paid job and responsibilities. There is already a hierarchy in judges at the ISU... There would still be one in place, allowing volunteer judges to keep evaluating local/smaller/lower level competitions.

Do you care to work out how this might work, hypothetically?

Assume that the ISU does want to take this route and devote adequate but not excessive financial resources toward the goal.

I have a number of questions to begin with. I'm sure there would be more if we want to get into nitty gritty.

1. Would professionalization be only for ISU judges or also for International judges?

(I'm assuming whatever the ISU does would have no bearing on what individual national federations do for their domestic competitions . . . although, as karne asks, If you judge domestically does that mean you give up any right to judge internationally? Or, conversely, if you are a professional international judge, would you be forbidden from judging domestically in a volunteer capacity?)

2. How many judges would be needed to meet the demands of the international competition season, at either the championship/GP level or all international competitions?

3. Would there be minimum requirements in terms of skating background and/or volunteer judging background to apply for the job/training? Should everyone who gets accepted into the training expect to get the job assuming they don't completely bomb, or would it be better to train more candidates and then hire only the best?

4. Would there be any effort to balance the professional judging corps in terms of where the candidates live or which national federation they have been associated with in their own skating or judging history?

 

[4everchan]

Do you care to work out how this might work, hypothetically?

Assume that the ISU does want to take this route and devote adequate but not excessive financial resources toward the goal.

I have a number of questions to begin with. I'm sure there would be more if we want to get into nitty gritty.

1. Would professionalization be only for ISU judges or also for International judges?

(I'm assuming whatever the ISU does would have no bearing on what individual national federations do for their domestic competitions . . . although, as karne asks, If you judge domestically does that mean you give up any right to judge internationally? Or, conversely, if you are a professional international judge, would you be forbidden from judging domestically in a volunteer capacity?)

2. How many judges would be needed to meet the demands of the international competition season, at either the championship/GP level or all international competitions?

3. Would there be minimum requirements in terms of skating background and/or volunteer judging background to apply for the job/training? Should everyone who gets accepted into the training expect to get the job assuming they don't completely bomb, or would it be better to train more candidates and then hire only the best?

4. Would there be any effort to balance the professional judging corps in terms of where the candidates live or which national federation they have been associated with in their own skating or judging history?

I am not the ISU as I said, all these are valid concerns but I believe they could all be worked out ... what I propose is only ONE solution for each of the points you brought up.. but the reality is that there are several ways to do this if that were to be implemented, and I do not pretend that I have all the answers... but as a simple fan, not at all involved in the logistics of the sport, if I can imagine potential solutions, even if there may be better ones, I am confident that there is a way to make this work. A lot of it would depend on budget of course... and again, let me repeat that I don't think it will happen...however, from my experience in other sports, as judges/referees are held accountable (because it's their job), i feel that there is often less subjectivity.

1) I would say this would depend on budget... but if we look at tennis, same refs are used throughout the season, not just for the big events like the slams... I would think that those categories could also be merged into one larger pool of competent ISU pro judges.

2) Again, hypothetical, dependent on budget, but what I would imagine is that events would not necessarily need 9 judges. If the ISU were to go that route, the judges would need to remain fairly objective as they would be under the ISU not "representing their federation"... I mean, a judge doing some shenanigan scoring could lose their job.. So it may be superfluous to have so many judges if the scoring is more homogeneous.

3) Most likely yes for both. And of course, and this is seen in other sports, the best referees are often picked to work on the biggest events. I would encourage the ISU to install a thorough evaluation process of its judges, not only during/ after training, but also for those who have secured a job.

4) I think that discussing this requires to dissociate a bit with the judging as we know it. I base my hypothesis on what is done in other sports. Tennis referees just travel all year long. Just like musicians while on tour... home becomes work/ work becomes home.... and work happens to be in different cities every week. Of course, there are some things to figure out...

 

[anonymoose_au]

After the men's result at Russian Nats I would like them to have ties.

Two skaters scored the exact same points over all, but only one got the gold, how is that fair?

I'm not sure what the deal is, like...do people feel their gold isn't worth as much if there's a tie? Does the person in third place feel they should get a silver if two share the gold? I dunno.

I mean, it's not like no other sport allows ties...there's plenty of sports that do, even ones that are entirely objective, such as the high jump, yet at the Tokyo Olympics the two guys who were leading with same jump height were able to share the gold. I thought that was really nice.

It just seems super unfair.

 

[4everchan]

After the men's result at Russian Nats I would like them to have ties.

Two skaters scored the exact same points over all, but only one got the gold, how is that fair?

I'm not sure what the deal is, like...do people feel their gold isn't worth as much if there's a tie? Does the person in third place feel they should get a silver if two share the gold? I dunno.

I mean, it's not like no other sport allows ties...there's plenty of sports that do, even ones that are entirely objective, such as the high jump, yet at the Tokyo Olympics the two guys who were leading with same jump height were able to share the gold. I thought that was really nice.

It just seems super unfair.

The rule is that the winner of the Freeskate takes it all... but yeah... i wasn't too happy when i saw the results but that's because i am biased

 

[yesterday]

After the men's result at Russian Nats I would like them to have ties.

Two skaters scored the exact same points over all, but only one got the gold, how is that fair?

I'm not sure what the deal is, like...do people feel their gold isn't worth as much if there's a tie? Does the person in third place feel they should get a silver if two share the gold? I dunno.

I mean, it's not like no other sport allows ties...there's plenty of sports that do, even ones that are entirely objective, such as the high jump, yet at the Tokyo Olympics the two guys who were leading with same jump height were able to share the gold. I thought that was really nice.

It just seems super unfair.

Yes, somehow it's weird, but quite common in lots of sports.
When it comes to medals, it's probably some reasons tied together. They would have to prepare 6 medals for each event perhaps, to have one in case and for every step on the podium. Not talking about trophies. Then all the processes afterwards - press/media, some special events perhaps where everything is focused on one person and prepared like that. Sometimes they carve a name into a wall of champions where there's only one line a year and it would look weird to have two etc etc etc.

I'd love to have insight into those sports where they have ties on the podium and to know how their preparation is and the processes etc.

Tokyo was special in a way and not at the same time. There are ties in high jump (I think, but very rare), but here they could have gone further and both decided to stop. So it was kind of a gentlemen's agreement to have this particular tie.

 

[anonymoose_au]

The rule is that the winner of the Freeskate takes it all... but yeah... i wasn't too happy when i saw the results but that's because i am biased

Heh as a fan of Zhenya S I was really happy for him, but at the same time I was kinda wincing because it was SO close and I felt like he might get blowback for winning outright, like nasty comments on social media and stuff.

I'm a wuss who likes to avoid conflict though so...

 

[karne]

1) I would say this would depend on budget... but if we look at tennis, same refs are used throughout the season, not just for the big events like the slams... I would think that those categories could also be merged into one larger pool of competent ISU pro judges.

What does this mean? Are you suggesting that each country's Nationals should be only from this pool of judges? The pool would have to be very large then, as many countries have overlaps with each other or with other internationals.

And who judges State Championships? Club competitions? Would Club comps have to hire from this pool? The pool would need to be absurdly large if so, and Clubs would quickly go broke. Or if there is a separate pool of volunteer judges, are these judges completely excluded from ever applying for the international pool?

And for the love of god, I don't know how many times this needs to be explained, but figure skating is not tennis. There is a complete lack of subjectivity in tennis umpiring, it is in or it is out, it hit the net or it did not.

3) Most likely yes for both. And of course, and this is seen in other sports, the best referees are often picked to work on the biggest events. I would encourage the ISU to install a thorough evaluation process of its judges, not only during/ after training, but also for those who have secured a job.

You know, in rugby league here in Australia, they say this, too. "the best referees for the biggest events". No, the favourites of the referee's boss get the biggest events, or the referees that are more likely to produce the result the NRL wants...

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

After the men's result at Russian Nats I would like them to have ties.

Two skaters scored the exact same points over all, but only one got the gold, how is that fair?

I'm not sure what the deal is, like...do people feel their gold isn't worth as much if there's a tie? Does the person in third place feel they should get a silver if two share the gold? I dunno.

I mean, it's not like no other sport allows ties...there's plenty of sports that do, even ones that are entirely objective, such as the high jump, yet at the Tokyo Olympics the two guys who were leading with same jump height were able to share the gold. I thought that was really nice.

It just seems super unfair.

The rule is that the winner of the Freeskate takes it all... but yeah... i wasn't too happy when i saw the results but that's because i am biased

Yes, somehow it's weird, but quite common in lots of sports.
When it comes to medals, it's probably some reasons tied together. They would have to prepare 6 medals for each event perhaps, to have one in case and for every step on the podium. Not talking about trophies. Then all the processes afterwards - press/media, some special events perhaps where everything is focused on one person and prepared like that. Sometimes they carve a name into a wall of champions where there's only one line a year and it would look weird to have two etc etc etc.

I'd love to have insight into those sports where they have ties on the podium and to know how their preparation is and the processes etc.

Tokyo was special in a way and not at the same time. There are ties in high jump (I think, but very rare), but here they could have gone further and both decided to stop. So it was kind of a gentlemen's agreement to have this particular tie.

Personally, I thought it should have been declared a joint win.

I don't like tie-breakers in things where somebody's score is reached through combining a number of scores. Having tie-breaks makes the results inherently biased towards one part of the score, which is not fair. Because although one person may have scored higher in that part than the other person, to get a tied overall score it means that they also scored lower than the other person in another part.

No, let them both have the glory! Share the love!

That said, I do think @yesterday has a point about the implications of ties, i.e. needing spare medals; trying to fit 2 names into a space designed for one name; throwing TV schedules into disarray; etc.. But, in the greater scheme of things, who cares about any of that?!

Anyway the reason I am replying is because I wanted to show you this story about a dead-heat in a motorbike race earlier this season and, in particular, the photo of the podium at the bottom of it:

https://www.bikesportnews.com/news/news-detail/donington-bsb-mlav-academy-scores-btc-dead-heat



CaroLiza_fan

 

[auser]

Bring pattern back in dance.

Yes yes yes, please! Do you have insight about why pattern was discontinued?

 

[4everchan]

What does this mean? Are you suggesting that each country's Nationals should be only from this pool of judges? The pool would have to be very large then, as many countries have overlaps with each other or with other internationals.

And who judges State Championships? Club competitions? Would Club comps have to hire from this pool? The pool would need to be absurdly large if so, and Clubs would quickly go broke. Or if there is a separate pool of volunteer judges, are these judges completely excluded from ever applying for the international pool?

And for the love of god, I don't know how many times this needs to be explained, but figure skating is not tennis. There is a complete lack of subjectivity in tennis umpiring, it is in or it is out, it hit the net or it did not.

You know, in rugby league here in Australia, they say this, too. "the best referees for the biggest events". No, the favourites of the referee's boss get the biggest events, or the referees that are more likely to produce the result the NRL wants...

When discussing something so hypothetical, one needs to remain open-minded. No need to be defensive here... this is just small talk.

I already mentioned that domestic events, which includes nationals and club events may still be judged by "amateur" or if you prefer, volunteer judges. Having professional judges for international competitions doesn't mean that there would be no need for local judges... I already mentioned this more than once. If you want to entertain another idea, the ISU could send a professional judge (or a couple more) to Nationals to work with the local judges.

Also, when I mentioned other sports, I didn't compare the technical needs of each sport (and by the way, tennis is smart, they use technology to call lines in most tournaments now... too bad for these volunteer line judges.. but it's much better and fairer like this now). I mentioned the fact that in those sports, there are professional referees touring the world and making a living out of it and it might be something appealing to some devoted figure skating fans, if it were possible to get a very thorough training leading to a sustainable profession.

Considering the number of times fans have complained about how things are judged now in figure skating, I am willing to entertain other options that may alleviate this recurring issue.

From your post, I perceive no desire for such a change. That's alright. We certainly do not need to find consensus in this thread which is about rule changes we would like to see...

Perhaps you may want to suggest some rules you would like to see..

 

[4everchan]

Heh as a fan of Zhenya S I was really happy for him, but at the same time I was kinda wincing because it was SO close and I felt like he might get blowback for winning outright, like nasty comments on social media and stuff.

I'm a wuss who likes to avoid conflict though so...

Semenko did win it... see... i am not particularly fond of him but I accept easily his win since the rules are clear. There are sports that have the technology and/or the context to have "ties" like swimming... but others absolutely do not want ties... and they have a lot of tiebreaking rules... Figure skating has always have those... it's probably a relic from the 6.0 era.

In IJS, I am willing to accept the FS as a tie breaker because it does require more elements to be performed and the component score is factored higher... but I would be fine too if a tie were to be called a tie. In that case, two gold medals would be awarded and then, a bronze. I'd be fine with this as well.