2022-23 Retirements, Splits and New Partnerships

[theblade]

And when you factor in the "pay to play" expectations on the female's family - from the male partner's perspective - it's even more... um, what's the word I'm looking for?

 

[JustSomeGuy]

This has to be rough for her and I am sorry for that.

However, one thing I heard about US ice dance is that some people are with the wrong partners. Hopefully this shakeup is for the best.

That has been the talk from audiences, typically those with no skating experience of their own, but I've not heard of anybody from USFS expressing this view.

There is a lot more to whether an Ice Dance team works or not than just having the 'correct' height difference, and even without commenting of anything off the ice, things like skating skills exist on more parameters than just 'good or bad', and two skaters can both have skating skills that are overall equal, but strong or weak in different areas, for example one partner being faster while the other can hold a sustained edge longer, but both of these end up having to be held back to the level of the weaker partner.

If the people who had been calling for USFS to split Wolfkostin and Chen up (who now largely appear to be 'distraught' over the split) had their way, Chock and Bates would never have stayed together, nor Papadakis and Cizeron, nor SinKats, nor Smart and Diaz, nor Fear and Gibson, nor Guignard and Fabri... a whole lot of teams that audience members with no first-hand knowledge of the sport wanted to split.

 

[Ziotic]

Jeffrey's parents are serious about who he vies for the 2026 Olympics with.

(Edited to add: this is not a horse's mouth comment. Merely an opinion built over time, from general observation.)

Let’s be real, he’s not vying for 2026.

H/B, G/P, C/P all stand clearly in front. Who knows what C/B are thinking.

Then there is the Browns, P/B, and Vadym and his new partner.

With the way ice dance works outlook for 2026 is slim.

 

[moonvine]

Let’s be real, he’s not vying for 2026.

H/B, G/P, C/P all stand clearly in front. Who knows what C/B are thinking.

Then there is the Browns, P/B, and Vadym and his new partner.

With the way ice dance works outlook for 2026 is slim.

Ice Dance appears to be a sport for the very, very patient athlete.

First one has to claw ones selves up through the junior ranks. Then get to Seniors and basically literally start all over…fight up to the second tier and try to get where you are steadily coming in 4th at Nationals, then wait for a team in places 1-3 to retire.

Not like a proper discipline like pairs where you can get a magical partner like Mr Daniel O’Shea and be off to Worlds 6 months after partnering (and yes, before someone starts lecturing me about how that doesn’t happen much and it’s because almost all the other US first tier teams and second tier teams were injured, broke up or otherwise split, I’m aware). Danny O’Shea is magic though. I’m not going to be dissuaded on that point.

Here’s hoping both these skaters find their own magical partner sooner better than later. But while of course everyone is saying they’re vying for 2026, more realistic to vy for 2030.

 

[theblade]

Let’s be real, he’s not vying for 2026.

H/B, G/P, C/P all stand clearly in front. Who knows what C/B are thinking.

Then there is the Browns, P/B, and Vadym and his new partner.

With the way ice dance works outlook for 2026 is slim.

Thoroughly agree with you on all of your points. Hope you mean "Let's be real" in the royal "we" sense.

Families in skating are naturally ambitious. The goal is to compete and to win. The families of guys in this sport have a completely different path than the families of gals. Strategic un-couplings are part of the bloodsport, unfortunately. And there's even fewer male partners for females than there were in the '80s and '90s.

The break-up is now in order to best position for 2026. Otherwise, a slow build to 2030 would make more sense. Plenty of teams have a few rough seasons 'til they find themselves more sure-footed as seniors. This team is no more - thus, no build. Katarina has stated that she hopes to continue. Leaving a dude at this level isn't easy, and both posts read pretty clearly to anyone who has been in skating, especially partnered ice dancing, for any amount of time.

The pewter medal Z/K won ruffled a lot of feathers. That factors into this decision too, most likely.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Ice Dance appears to be a sport for the very, very patient athlete.

First one has to claw ones selves up through the junior ranks. Then get to Seniors and basically literally start all over…fight up to the second tier and try to get where you are steadily coming in 4th at Nationals, then wait for a team in places 1-3 to retire.

Not like a proper discipline like pairs where you can get a magical partner like Mr Daniel O’Shea and be off to Worlds 6 months after partnering (and yes, before someone starts lecturing me about how that doesn’t happen much and it’s because almost all the other US first tier teams and second tier teams were injured, broke up or otherwise split, I’m aware). Danny O’Shea is magic though. I’m not going to be dissuaded on that point.

Here’s hoping both these skaters find their own magical partner sooner better than later. But while of course everyone is saying they’re vying for 2026, more realistic to vy for 2030.

And that is exactly why I have never understood why any Ice Dance partnership that has the option of competing for a different country would opt to represent America, or Russia, or Canada.

Yes, I was thinking about a few partnerships in particular when I wrote that.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[moonvine]

And that is exactly why I have never understood why any Ice Dance partnership that has the option of competing for a different country would opt to represent America, or Russia, or Canada.

Yes, I was thinking about a few partnerships in particular when I wrote that.

CaroLiza_fan

And I know you’re thinking of Z/K…I know she has dual citizenship..what is his citizenship status?

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

And I know you’re thinking of Z/K…I know she has dual citizenship..what is his citizenship status?

I don't know. I always assumed Vadym had American citizenship by now. After all, he has been living there for quite a few years.

But, I'm sure he could get Cypriot citizenship pretty easy. Cyprus has been giving out passports hand over fist to anybody and everybody over the years. It's actually become a major scandal.

Yes, Emilea and Vadym were my first thought. But, they were quickly followed by Tiffany Zahorski / Jonathan Guerreiro (Russia); Molly Lanaghan / Dmitre Razgulajevs (Canada); Nadiia Bashynska / Peter Beaumont (Canada). Maybe even Kaitlin Hawayek / Jean-Luc Baker (USA).

I know all those partnerships include a British skater, but I'm not trying to claim them for us. Honest! For the first three, I was actually thinking more about a country that their partner has a parent from.

That said, I can understand the two highest profile switches to Canada in recent years. It was too difficult for Laurence to get Danish citizenship. And Marie-Jade and Romain thought they were going to have too long a wait to become French #1's.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[moonvine]

I don't know. I always assumed Vadym had American citizenship by now. After all, he has been living there for quite a few years.

But, I'm sure he could get Cypriot citizenship pretty easy. Cyprus has been giving out passports hand over fist to anybody and everybody over the years. It's actually become a major scandal.

Yes, Emilea and Vadym were my first thought. But, they were quickly followed by Tiffany Zahorski / Jonathan Guerreiro (Russia); Molly Lanaghan / Dmitre Razgulajevs (Canada); Nadiia Bashynska / Peter Beaumont (Canada). Maybe even Kaitlin Hawayek / Jean-Luc Baker (USA).

I know all those partnerships include a British skater, but I'm not trying to claim them for us. Honest! For the first three, I was actually thinking more about a country that their partner has a parent from.

That said, I can understand the two highest profile switches to Canada in recent years. It was too difficult for Laurence to get Danish citizenship. And Marie-Jade and Romain thought they were going to have too long a wait to become French #1's.

CaroLiza_fan

I think Kaitlyn and Jean-Luc might have made sense switching to Britain before Fear/Gibson. Not sure I see a point switching from #2 US to #2 UK.

Am I just crazy or could some of these people just have a dream of representing their own country at the Olympics or just on the World stage? Or I guess after you’ve worked that hard you’ll go where ever, if it’s not working for you in your own country. I know I’m impatient. “Guam: you can skate for us.” “Me. Ok here I am. What does my new flag look like?”

 

[moonvine]

The pewter medal Z/K won ruffled a lot of feathers. That factors into this decision too, most likely.

To me this is such a bizarre thing. Other team skates better than you do and the judges have the temerity to actually score them fairly and they medal. OMG! Break up!
I mean…I can’t think of any other sport…just skate that little bit better next time?

 

[theblade]

Yes. Emilea and Vadym had two great skates at nationals - quite clean, fast, great dance movements, confident presence, solid lifts, well-presented. (And Pate/Bye had a couple of FD issues that placed them lower than they could have been in the ranks - unfortunate because they did well internationally this season.)

The fact that Emilea has just switched to ice dance is notable because just about all the other skaters have gone through the ranks of pattern dances at the levels below senior. However, senior ice dance as it currently is has been so altered that both her and Lewis Gibson (UK) have not been overly hobbled by their lack of competitive pattern dance experience.

 

[moonvine]

Yes. Emilea and Vadym had two great skates at nationals - quite clean, fast, great dance movements, confident presence, solid lifts, well-presented. (And Pate/Bye had a couple of FD issues that placed them lower than they could have been in the ranks - unfortunate because they did well internationally this season.)

The fact that Emilea has just switched to ice dance is notable because just about all the other skaters have gone through the ranks of pattern dances at the levels below senior. However, senior ice dance as it currently is has been so altered that both her and Lewis Gibson (UK) have not been overly hobbled by their lack of competitive pattern dance experience.

Yes, because there is no more pattern dance and won’t be next year either. I wonder what will happen if they throw it back in for s&g after 2-3 years.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

I think Kaitlyn and Jean-Luc might have made sense switching to Britain before Fear/Gibson. Not sure I see a point switching from #2 US to #2 UK.

Agree there. It would be crazy to do it now, when they are one of the top partnerships in America. And they would have to sit out a year, which wouldn't be a good thing at this stage of their career. But when they first got together, when Coomes / Buckland were coming towards the end of their careers, it would have been a very good move for them.

Am I just crazy or could some of these people just have a dream of representing their own country at the Olympics or just on the World stage? Or I guess after you’ve worked that hard you’ll go where ever, if it’s not working for you in your own country. I know I’m impatient. “Guam: you can skate for us.” “Me. Ok here I am. What does my new flag look like?”

Could be. As you all know by now, the Olympics isn't the be-all and end-all to me. Personally, I see Worlds as the far more prestigious event. But to a lot of people, getting to compete at the Olympics is a really big deal.

For some athletes, the whole "representing your country" thing is particularly important. And they would not even consider stepping out in a different country's jacket, even if it means they could miss out on the chance of competing at the Majors.

For others, they will do anything to get to compete at the Olympics. They don't care what country they are representing, just so long as they get there.

This is just my personal feeling, but I prefer that if skaters switch countries, it is to a country that they have a connection with.

As I have said umpteen times over the years, with Tiff and Jon, if they wanted to maximise their opportunities on the international stage, they should have opted for his Dad's country (Portugal) rather than his Mum's country (Russia). But, the Portuguese Fed doesn't have a lot of resources. So, on balance, the best option all-round would have been to either go with the country Jon was born in (Australia), or use one of Tiff's connections - the UK (where she was born) or Poland (where her heritage lies).

Anyway, this is getting way off topic.

Just before I go, I am afraid that Guam is an American possession rather than an independent country. So, switching to there wouldn't work.

But, here's the flag anyway:

CaroLiza_fan

 

[islandpaddler]

Agree there. It would be crazy to do it now, when they are one of the top partnerships in America. And they would have to sit out a year, which wouldn't be a good thing at this stage of their career. But when they first got together, when Coomes / Buckland were coming towards the end of their careers, it would have been a very good move for them.



Could be. As you all know by now, the Olympics isn't the be-all and end-all to me. Personally, I see Worlds as the far more prestigious event. But to a lot of people, getting to compete at the Olympics is a really big deal.

For some athletes, the whole "representing your country" thing is particularly important. And they would not even consider stepping out in a different country's jacket, even if it means they could miss out on the chance of competing at the Majors.

For others, they will do anything to get to compete at the Olympics. They don't care what country they are representing, just so long as they get there.

This is just my personal feeling, but I prefer that if skaters switch countries, it is to a country that they have a connection with.

As I have said umpteen times over the years, with Tiff and Jon, if they wanted to maximise their opportunities on the international stage, they should have opted for his Dad's country (Portugal) rather than his Mum's country (Russia). But, the Portuguese Fed doesn't have a lot of resources. So, on balance, the best option all-round would have been to use one of Tiff's connections - the UK (where she was born) or Poland (where her heritage lies).

Anyway, this is getting way off topic.

Just before I go, I am afraid that Guam is an American possession rather than an independent country. So, switching to there wouldn't work.

But, here's the flag anyway:

CaroLiza_fan

I don't know what the situation is in Guam, but here in the U.S. Virgin Islands, which is another U.S. territory, our athletes compete at the summer and winter Olympics under the U.S. Virgin Islands flag, not the United States. I don't think we've ever had a figure skater but there were athletes in bobsleigh, luge and skeleton, I seem to recall. No medals that I recall, but sailor Peter Holmberg won the silver in the Finn Class at the 1988 summer Olympics in Korea. And by rummaging around in my memory, I seem to recall there was once a skater from Puerto Rico, another U.S. territory, who skated under the Puerto Rico flag.

 

[moonvine]

I don't know what the situation is in Guam, but here in the U.S. Virgin Islands, which is another U.S. territory, our athletes compete at the summer and winter Olympics under the U.S. Virgin Islands flag, not the United States. I don't think we've ever had a figure skater but there were athletes in bobsleigh, luge and skeleton, I seem to recall. No medals that I recall, but sailor Peter Holmberg won the silver in the Finn Class at the 1988 summer Olympics in Korea. And by rummaging around in my memory, I seem to recall there was once a skater from Puerto Rico, another U.S. territory, who skated under the Puerto Rico flag.

Yes, there's something really strange about it. There's an American gymnast, John Orozco, who made the US Olympic team in 2016 (I was there). He was the last name to be called (I've no idea if they were going in any order) and he was just overwhelmed with emotion. Then, injury

So he was gong to try to come back and get on the Puerto Rican team...but if all Puerto Ricans are citizens of America...and they are....how can there be a separate Puerto Rican team? and there is, at least for gymnastics. So I'm 100% confused now.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

I don't know what the situation is in Guam, but here in the U.S. Virgin Islands, which is another U.S. territory, our athletes compete at the summer and winter Olympics under the U.S. Virgin Islands flag, not the United States. I don't think we've ever had a figure skater but there were athletes in bobsleigh, luge and skeleton, I seem to recall. No medals that I recall, but sailor Peter Holmberg won the silver in the Finn Class at the 1988 summer Olympics in Korea. And by rummaging around in my memory, I seem to recall there was once a skater from Puerto Rico, another U.S. territory, who skated under the Puerto Rico flag.

Oh. My. Goodness.

I forgot all about Puerto Rico fielding figure skaters. And I should have remembered, because Rohene Ward was one of them.

I just checked, and Guam has indeed competed at the Olympics, albeit not in figure skating. Judd Bankert (originally from Michigan, but living in Guam) competed in biathlon in Calgary.

So, American possessions can compete at the Olympics. Interesting.

How come the same isn't the case for British possessions?! (I think Hong Kong was the only exception)

CaroLiza_fan

 

[moonvine]

Oh. My. Goodness.

I forgot all about Puerto Rico fielding figure skaters. And I should have remembered, because Rohene Ward was one of them.

I just checked, and Guam has indeed competed at the Olympics, albeit not in figure skating. Judd Bankert (originally from Michigan, but living in Guam) competed in biathlon in Calgary.

So, American possessions can compete at the Olympics. Interesting.

How come the same isn't the case for British possessions?! (I think Hong Kong was the only exception)

CaroLiza_fan

So I COULD have skated for Guam..but that ship has now sailed as I would not make tech minimums.

And maybe one just needs to live in Guam (or PR or British Virgin Islands?) Where do I sign up?

 

[NanaPat]

And Marie-Jade and Romain thought they were going to have too long a wait to become French #1's.

I think it was because they wouldn't be allowed to skate at all during COVID, as non-Canadian competitors living in Canada.

 

[4everchan]

I don't know. I always assumed Vadym had American citizenship by now. After all, he has been living there for quite a few years.

But, I'm sure he could get Cypriot citizenship pretty easy. Cyprus has been giving out passports hand over fist to anybody and everybody over the years. It's actually become a major scandal.

Yes, Emilea and Vadym were my first thought. But, they were quickly followed by Tiffany Zahorski / Jonathan Guerreiro (Russia); Molly Lanaghan / Dmitre Razgulajevs (Canada); Nadiia Bashynska / Peter Beaumont (Canada). Maybe even Kaitlin Hawayek / Jean-Luc Baker (USA).

I know all those partnerships include a British skater, but I'm not trying to claim them for us. Honest! For the first three, I was actually thinking more about a country that their partner has a parent from.

That said, I can understand the two highest profile switches to Canada in recent years. It was too difficult for Laurence to get Danish citizenship. And Marie-Jade and Romain thought they were going to have too long a wait to become French #1's.

CaroLiza_fan

a few points here..

: the two teams you mention with British skaters who represent Canada were "created" by Carol Lane. I think it's pretty normal a British coach would have this sort of influence.

and more importantly, Marie-Jade and Romain didn't leave France because of waiting too long to become France's number 1... I mean as if they would have an easier time becoming Canada's number1? They have said that they both work/study and live in Montreal and it feels like home and they want to build their lives in Montreal as Canadians. That's why they made the move. It's actually not about rankings and opportunities because as French number 2 in the past, they would have had many more opportunities, and this year, they would have been already been French number 1. They were not supposed to be on the podium at Canadian Nationals and will be at 4CC because Piper is still recovering from appendectomy.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

a few points here..

: the two teams you mention with British skaters who represent Canada were "created" by Carol Lane. I think it's pretty normal a British coach would have this sort of influence.

I love Carol and Jon Lane. They are great coaches. And I love the way that, despite being based in Canada for so long, they haven't forgotten where they came from. They take an interest in what is happening in the British Ice Dancing scene, and when they spot up and coming talent, they take them under their wings and nurture it.

The thing that frustrates me is that they all end up skating for Canada. That's one thing that I prefer about the Montréal setup. They also take in talented Ice Dancers from elsewhere the world, but they don't all end up skating for Canada. Most continue to represent their own country.

and more importantly, Marie-Jade and Romain didn't leave France because of waiting too long to become France's number 1... I mean as if they would have an easier time becoming Canada's number1? They have said that they both work/study and live in Montreal and it feels like home and they want to build their lives in Montreal as Canadians. That's why they made the move. It's actually not about rankings and opportunities because as French number 2 in the past, they would have had many more opportunities, and this year, they would have been already been French number 1. They were not on the podium at Canadian Nationals and will be at 4CC because Piper is still recovering from appendectomy.

Ah, I didn't realise that that was the reason. I thought they had just got so frustrated with always playing second-fiddle to Gabriella and Guillaume. Let's face it, although being team-mates to the stand-out partnership in the world pretty much guarantees you slots, it must be so demoralising to be constantly behind them. Especially for a partnership that is as good as they are. In most countries, they would be the #1 partnership.

Although they are now in a bigger and deeper field, which makes it more difficult to get assignments, at least in Canada they are in a field where they can actually fight with other partnerships of their own level. That way, they are able to gauge where they were at earlier in the season, and work on where they have to improve before doing any international assignments.

It's making them better Ice Dancers. And in the long run, it will be better for them than staying in France.

CaroLiza_fan