Brian's triple flips???

[NatachaHatawa]

The triple flip is Brian's best jump. However, if one looks at the judges scores, on both in his LP he apparently had a wrong edge. I personnaly didn't see, and neither did any of the commentators that I heard. It just seems strange that
a) Brian should make the same mistake twice on his best jump
b) No-one else seemed to notice

Can someone please confirm his mistake?

 

[Medusa]

There were lots of guys who suddenly got edge deductions - but Brian isn't one of them. He got that edge deduction at Skate Canada too. He wasn't punished at Europeans - but he also acknowledges that he uses the wrong take-off.

Other edge calls are also interesting:

• Johnny got an edge-call for both his Triple Flips, that never happened to him this season
• Schultheiss got an edge-call for both his Triple Flips, he didn't get edge deductions for it at Junior Worlds and Europeans
• Karel Zelenka (ITA) got edge-calls for his three Triple Flips, he wasn't punished for it at Europeans
• Tomas Verner got an edge-call for his Triple Flip in the short program, but his Triple Flip in the long (yes, he completed one) didn't receive a call
• KvdPerren was punished for flutzing in the short, that never happened to him before - but there were no edge calls in the long

 

[NatachaHatawa]

Well the deduction wasn't prsented as such but this is what's on the ISU website:

http://static.sportresult.com/sports/figureskating/live/results/wc2008/WC08_Men_FS_Scores.pdf

 

[antmanb]

The triple flip is Brian's best jump. However, if one looks at the judges scores, on both in his LP he apparently had a wrong edge. I personnaly didn't see, and neither did any of the commentators that I heard. It just seems strange that
a) Brian should make the same mistake twice on his best jump
b) No-one else seemed to notice

Can someone please confirm his mistake?

There is a quote from Joubert himself along the lines of saying "i can't do a flip, i do lutz instead" he said this and then changed his SP jump from a flip to a lutz. t seems bizarre that he would change his SP jump but not limit his LP to just one flip. I agree though, edge change or not his flip is his biggest jump.

Ant

 

[NatachaHatawa]

There is a quote from Joubert himself along the lines of saying "i can't do a flip, i do lutz instead" he said this and then changed his SP jump from a flip to a lutz. t seems bizarre that he would change his SP jump but not limit his LP to just one flip. I agree though, edge change or not his flip is his biggest jump.

Ant

Thanx!

It's still strange that he should have problems with flips, as last season he even quaded them at training seasions.

 

[Medusa]

Thanx!

It's still strange that he should have problems with flips, as last season he even quaded them at training seasions.

He doesn't really have problems with it - he just does it the wrong way. He takes off from the outside edge of his blade, but the Flip is supposed to take off from the inside edge. And he probably always did it the wrong way.

But after last season they decided to tighten the rules concerning underrotation and jump-take-off. There are several examples among the other skaters: Asada always got at least +1 GOE on her lutz before this season. But she takes off from the inside edge and therefore "flutzes" and now receives -1 or even -2 GOE for every Lutz she does.

Brian was never punished for it before, because the rules didn't demand it. But since the beginning of this season they do - that's why his flips (and the flips of other guys) receive deductions, it doesn't matter how well he lands the jump or how great and high the jump is. The deduction is made because of the wrong take-off and it is a mandatory deduction.

 

[NatachaHatawa]

Thanx! I wasn't aware of the change of rules concerning flips, or that Brian had always been doing them wrong, which explains why no-one seemed to notice the mistake.

 

[GoldMedalist]

Yet another rule that needs to be changed. Edge calls should be a deduction from the base score of the jump and the GOE should be left alone. Joubert should be getting +2 GOE on his Flips.

 

[screech]

There is a quote from Joubert himself along the lines of saying "i can't do a flip, i do lutz instead" he said this and then changed his SP jump from a flip to a lutz. t seems bizarre that he would change his SP jump but not limit his LP to just one flip. I agree though, edge change or not his flip is his biggest jump.

Ant

Isn't his LP supposed to be just one flip? I thought one of them was supposed to actually be a 4T but he changed it at worlds.

 

[indicatoto101]

Yet another rule that needs to be changed. Edge calls should be a deduction from the base score of the jump and the GOE should be left alone. Joubert should be getting +2 GOE on his Flips.

His "flips" aren't correct flips so why should he get extra points for them?

 

[TCTC84]

His "flips" aren't correct flips so why should he get extra points for them?

I think something is fundementally wrong when a skater who delivers a triple "lip" as gorgeous as Brian's recieves the same marks as someone who does a triple "lip", double foots it, and steps out of the landing.

I think this whole "intended jump" crap is stupid. call it what it actually is "in brian's case, a lutz" If skaters can't do both lutz and flip, they shouldn't disguise one as the other.

 

[indicatoto101]

Someone who does a 3lip, and double foots it or steps out receives lower GOE than a "lip" executed like Brian's. Not only do the judges take off for the incorrect edge take-off, they also mark off for the bad landings. That's basically a 2-pt difference between Brian's "lip" and a badly executed "lip."

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

If a skater does a perfect flip nine out of ten times, that means he can do a perfect flip. As for the tenth one, if it is in competition, then he should receive a deduction. No one is perfect all the time.

Joe

 

[_Ladybug_]

He must fix it. It can cost him a lot if he doesn't.

 

[dorispulaski]

I do find it odd that the ladies seem mostly to get edge deductions for flutzes, but can do a flip, and the men are getting edge deductions for lips, but can do a lutz.

At least this crop of men and ladies.

Strange!

 

[GoldMedalist]

His "flips" aren't correct flips so why should he get extra points for them?

Let's see, a jump is about:

-takeoff
-height
-distance
-rotation
-landing

Joubert does 4 out of 5 of those better than almost anyone in the World on his Flips.

You're really telling me that some tiny, un-exciting Triple Flip should score higher than Joubert's MASSIVE jump, simply because the take-off edge was more correct?

No thanks.

This is the one area of Joubert's skating that deserves really high scores.

 

[indicatoto101]

I'm not saying he doesn't deserve GOE for his lip,but the ISU officials apparently doesn't think he should. Should bad technique be docked off somewhere? Yes, but I don't think it should be in GOE. Perhaps it would make more sense as a deduction.

 

[Skye]

Let's see, a jump is about:

-takeoff
-height
-distance
-rotation
-landing

Joubert does 4 out of 5 of those better than almost anyone in the World on his Flips.

You're really telling me that some tiny, un-exciting Triple Flip should score higher than Joubert's MASSIVE jump, simply because the take-off edge was more correct?

No thanks.

This is the one area of Joubert's skating that deserves really high scores.

No and no. A jump is defined by the takeoff edge, and in reality Joubert is not doing a flip. Would you rather have it called a lutz and have him violate the Zayak rule? I'd have no problems with that.

 

[indicatoto101]

It's not really a lutz either because the mechanics (the counter-rotation) are different. I'd say dinge flutzers/lippers with a deduction because they're doing an improper element, sorta like an illegal element.

 

[NatachaHatawa]

I agree with both pints of view that brian's flips should be sanstioned for the wrong edge and rewarded for the hugeness.

One thing I do like about the way this mistake is treated by the system is that the point isn't "automaticly" deduced, ie: it isn't the technical controller that deduces a point from the program, but the judges who simply give the GOE execution they deem necessary. This should be the case with falls (on jumps), because on top of having a negative GOE, skaters get an extra point deduced. This is because the ISU wants to ensure that skaters do get sanctioned for mistakes, but I think it's pretty fair to say that the judges do their job properly and always give a negative GOE when there is a fall anyway, so that deduction on the program isn't necessary. Comming back to Brian's flips, I think to take into account both his lip and the beauty of his jump, judges should neither give him extra points or take any off for his flip, just give him a GOE of 0.