Men's Long Program

[Medusa]

I think if Johnny's almost best and Lambiel's almost worst are almost equal the European press know what they're talking about. Watched Poeta again, and no matter what, i was impressed by him and his 'attitudes masculins'.

I don't think we need to discuss this. Because we have seen at the beginning of this season how Stéphane at his worst fares against Johnny at a high standard. Does anyone else remember the 40 points margin at Cup of China?

And I am not even saying that that was Johnny at his best because I don't think that this long program suited him well. It was rather empty and didn't really emphasise his qualities. And look what he achieved with it.

Stéphane rotated all of his jumps except for the Quad Toe at Worlds and didn't really fall - that was much better than it was at the beginning of the season.

 

[artsciboy]

After reading all the posted I felt the need to add in my two cents. Before I start I will say that I am not a fan of Jeff and I am a fan of Brian. However, I will try to be object in my post. I definately feel Brian's pain. I see all these people calling him a "poor sport". The only way for that statement to be true is if skating is treated like a sport. Some of Brian's comment may have been a bit harsh but under the circumstances I understand. I don't understand why everyone seems to be attacking him. Think of how many times Plushenko complained. He complained when Emanuel Sandhu beat him at the Grand Prix final because he beat him on a "technicality", that's sport baby. A number of guys at worlds this year lost placement/medals due to the same thing. Back to the original topic, with regard to the marks in the free skate, I don't understand some of the marks that Jeff got on his jumps. I have read the rules for marking jumps and as an example on his triple axel/double toe/double loop he got a +0.29 GOE which isn't much but 2 judges gave him a +2 and if you watch the jumps the landing of the axel was very scratchy and in order to give him that mark of +2 he would have to be "superior in one jump" and of the 3 jumps none were superior. As I read the rule he should have been receiving -1 because there was a "minor problem in one phase of the jump". Each jump has phases being preparation, take-off, rotation/flight and landing. His triple flip/triple toe had very little flow on the landing. His 2nd triple axel he was forward on the landing. His triple lutz/double toe again little flow on landing. His loop was ok. Sal ok. Yet even with the scratchy/no flow landings every jump except the last lutz received some postive GOE (the last lutz had a 0 GOE). Just on the GOE of his jumps Jeff got 6.01 points. Comparativly, Brian received 6.73 (that included the - GOE on the flips). Those GOE are far to close as Brian's jumps are higher, more powerful and had more flow on the landings. As for Brian receiving higher PCS than Jeff, skating skill includes power/energy and acceleration which Brian accels at. Performance/execution includes physical, emotional and intellectual involvement and style and individuallity, Brian reaction at the end of his performance had more emotion than Jeff ever shows. I could go on but I will leave it at that..for now.

Lastly, the comment that Kurt made about it taking Brian days to master a part of the choreo doen't mean by any stretch of the imagination that he is an inferior skater to Jeff. I'm sure that if we had David Wilson commentation her could comment about things that were difficult for Jeff to learn, in fact he ditched his long program on more that one occasion because he was having difficulty with the choreo and put it all together. I personally prefer well choreographed programs that contain strong jumps, fast spins and difficult footwork to programs that have so many transitions and are filled up with so many turns between the jumps that they jumps suffer.

Sorry for the long post and thanks for reading!!

~D

My problem with Brian's programs were the lower levels he received on his non-jump elements. IMO, that's where he lost any chances of winning this competition. The fact that he clearly minimized the jump content of his program doesn't help at all. He rightfully lost, and it shocks me that he was that clueless about it. He needs to take a look at the protocols and suck it up!

 

[DivaDes]

My problem with Brian's programs were the lower levels he received on his non-jump elements. IMO, that's where he lost any chances of winning this competition. The fact that he clearly minimized the jump content of his program doesn't help at all. He rightfully lost, and it shocks me that he was that clueless about it. He needs to take a look at the protocols and suck it up!

I will also point out though that at previous competitions all of his spins and step sequences were marked higher than at worlds. He previously had had mostly level 3s on spins and step sequences and ended up with a few level 2s this time. I don't think that he should jsut suck it up. Brian wasn't the only skater who had complaints with some of the judging. I read that Yu-Na Kim felt that Mao was over marked. I felt that the germany pair was over marked for a somewhat sloppy performance and same think for Carolina (who also complained about the results), yet few people are attacking them for their comments.

~D

 

[cassieandcheetah]

I will also point out though that at previous competitions all of his spins and step sequences were marked higher than at worlds. He previously had had mostly level 3s on spins and step sequences and ended up with a few level 2s this time. I don't think that he should jsut suck it up. Brian wasn't the only skater who had complaints with some of the judging. I read that Yu-Na Kim felt that Mao was over marked. I felt that the germany pair was over marked for a somewhat sloppy performance and same think for Carolina (who also complained about the results), yet few people are attacking them for their comments.

~D

I also think that it's much harder for the skaters to be objective and impartial about their own performance and those of others, because they've worked so hard all season, so of course they would feel crushed--and even angry--if they didn't get the result they wanted. I think that's how Brian felt right after his loss, and I bet he's probably regretting his remarks now since he has had time to cool down and come to his senses, but when after all that work you put in you come up short, the feeling of utter disappointment immediately following it has got to be enormous, and if you could mask that, kudos to you, but if not, it's only human. And one has to remember too that Brian had that really unfair deduction because of his music; if he didn't get dinged for it all season, why pick on it now and kick him in the butt like that? I dont think it was fair of the judges to do that, and I think that probably had a lot to do with Brian's anger after his 2nd place finish. So do let's try and forgive Brian and others who may have made some untoward remark about other skaters. I don't think they were blatantly ill-spirited, and after seeing come them together in the gala, I'm convinced that, despite all the competition that went on this week, they're after all one tight-knit community.

 

[GoldMedalist]

His triple flip/triple toe had very little flow on the landing. His 2nd triple axel he was forward on the landing. His triple lutz/double toe again little flow on landing.

Dunno what you were watching, Buttle's 3Flip-3Toe and 3Lutz-2Toe had good flow coming out.

 

[losrorien]

sweetbitter

Just read some Swiss newspapers - and apparently Lambiel is saying about Joubert that Joubert played it safe and he, Lambiel, risked it all.

This is too funny, Joubert is all angry because Buttle didn't try the Quad and still won, Lambiel seems to be a bit bitter because he tried more than Joubert and ended up without a medal...

QUOTE]


Sorry for my poor english, but I read also some swiss newspapers, and I just wanna say that Lambiel did never complain about his placement or his points after his LP, nor expresse the bitterness against Joubert.

He just said that he'd not simpified his program althoug his coach has proposed to do that, because it's not in his temperature, He just wanted to do like he'd planned in training, risking it all. He did cite Joubert, but it's just to say that his strategy is different from Joubert's. And Lambiel said that he thought himself not deserved to have a medal, because his performance was so bad. I wanna also say that he never complain his component marks, at least in this competition, he said that the judges appreciate with their own appreciation, so he accecpt it.

You know? Before this competition, he'd NEVER complained about his marks, so I'm a bit sad to see the people think that he is always complaining the marks or something. He'd never blamed his rivals or commented something like that.

 

[DivaDes]

Dunno what you were watching, Buttle's 3Flip-3Toe and 3Lutz-2Toe had good flow coming out.

The flow he had was more from push himself around the corner, than the actually flow out of the jump due to the speed. Jeff's jumps don't travel very far across the ice they go more up and therefore he doesn't carry as much flow out of the jumps.

~D

 

[emma]

Just a quick Congrats to the medalists. I actually think I understand Joubert's point, but do think he left the door open by not racking up the points this system allows him. Having said that, I think his overall skating just gets better and better, and this is saying alot for a person who has been as sick as he has. Good job, brian.

NOW JEFF BUTTLE - wow, wow wow, my deepest congrats - I shouted for joy after his LP knowing he would medal but really not being sure if it would be gold or silver (thinking likely the former, but still, not sure). I am so happy for Jeff and so happy to have watched such a beautiful performance of such a complex piece. Thank You Buttle!!!

Weir -- left points on the table again, but kept it together and showed his 'new self' with a focus on staying in the moment and what I sense as a new found power (or stamina, not sure which). Way to end your come-back year. Thanks for another enjoyable event (and yes, I'm selfish, so here's hoping this is just the start of good things to come!!!!) Congrats on your first world medal, bravo!!!

Thanks to all the men for a fantastic set of SP's, I'm still watching them and am so impressed. This was a fun competition!

 

[kikakiks]

I wanted to raise one point, just to spice up the controversy...

After all of the talks in the women's thread I thought I would come back home and everyone was going to be happy and sure about Jeffrey's gold...but I guess I was wrong.

When I watched the competition live I thought about the following things:

#1 - Joubert was so hyped up about his own performance, pumping up the crowd, kissing the ice and such....that I thought...what if the skate gods punish him and now Jeff does the skate of his life??

#2 - When Jeff's marks came out, I thought that if the tech was even slightly under Joubert he could win thanks to his superiority in skating skills and interpretation...
Can someone explain me (in an articulate way - no fan arguments please) how Brian scores higher in pcs?? I was a bit shocked, maybe I am just clueless

 

[PolymerBob]

You Canadians are absolutely going to love this. Check out this article. Look about in the middle of the page near the paragraph break where it says "GOTEBORG, Sweden".

See anything wrong?

http://www.pr-inside.com/world-sports-at-1330-gmt-r498922.htm

 

[Skye]

I will also point out though that at previous competitions all of his spins and step sequences were marked higher than at worlds. He previously had had mostly level 3s on spins and step sequences and ended up with a few level 2s this time. I don't think that he should jsut suck it up. Brian wasn't the only skater who had complaints with some of the judging. I read that Yu-Na Kim felt that Mao was over marked. I felt that the germany pair was over marked for a somewhat sloppy performance and same think for Carolina (who also complained about the results), yet few people are attacking them for their comments.

~D

D, you're not doing Brian any favors by trying to defend him in this way. We all understand how disappointed he must have been, but there have been no other skaters who have gone so far as to criticize their competitors of "having done nothing" on TV. I'm a fan of both Mao and Yu-Na and I've yet to hear any of those complaints, and I doubt it as they are very friendly towards each other off ice. As for the talk about S&S and Kostner's overmarking, it's just us fans, not the skaters themselves that are doing the talk, and most of the comments are not directed toward the skaters but to the judges and the judging system that allows such high-scored sloppy performances. Brian can be frustrated with the fact that CoP does not award quads as much as he would like, and that he didn't get the levels he had expected, but it still can not be an excuse for his unsportsmanlike behaviour.

 

[Mathman]

You Canadians are absolutely going to love this. Check out this article. Look about in the middle of the page near the paragraph break where it says "GOTEBORG, Sweden".

See anything wrong?

http://www.pr-inside.com/world-sports-at-1330-gmt-r498922.htm

I guess the reporter (like Dick Button) couldn't believe that Brian Joubert didn't win.

 

[Mathman]

Sorry for my poor english, but I read also some swiss newspapers, and I just wanna say that Lambiel did never complain about his placement or his points after his LP, nor expresse the bitterness against Joubert.

He just said that he'd not simpified his program althoug his coach has proposed to do that, because it's not in his temperature, He just wanted to do like he'd planned in training, risking it all. He did cite Joubert, but it's just to say that his strategy is different from Joubert's. And Lambiel said that he thought himself not deserved to have a medal, because his performance was so bad. I wanna also say that he never complain his component marks, at least in this competition, he said that the judges appreciate with their own appreciation, so he accecpt it.

You know? Before this competition, he'd NEVER complained about his marks, so I'm a bit sad to see the people think that he is always complaining the marks or something. He'd never blamed his rivals or commented something like that.

Thank you for that balanced and thoughtful post. (Your English is excellent!)

Welcome to Golden Skate. We hope you like it here. Post often, post long! :agree:

 

[iluvtodd]

Congrats to Jeff, Brian, and Johnny! arty: I was stunned with the results, but was jumping for joy for Jeff. I wish US TV had shown the medal ceremony.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

From my view:

Buttle deserved the win. If the judges were following the CoP, Buttle had the best program (thanks to Wilson). It wasn't about who would perform the best quad or do you think it should?

Joubert for me, never skated so well. Since he's been with Kurt Browning, a style has emerged and his overall skating has improved 100%' He will definitely be a favorite of predicters in 2009

The remaining members of the Four Horsemen of the Quad: Stephane, Daisuke and Tomas just did not rise to the occasion this time out. They are good though and I would not rule them out next year.

Johnny, and this is only my take, is not improving his natural style but throwing in arm and hand movements which are not his and look badly to me. Johnny was such a natural skater and for me, it is gone. I don't think he'll get it back.
Look at that LP he did in Gotenborg and compare it with Otonal, and you will see what I mean.

The emerging question: Is the Quad necessary to win a Worlds?

Joe

 

[show 42]

Didn't Jeff get a silver at a previous worlds?

I should have made that two separate sentences. Kudos to Jeff! Congrats to Johnny for winning his first (of many I hope) World medal!!! 42

 

[jennylovskt]

The emerging question: Is the Quad necessary to win a Worlds?

Joe

IMO, absolutely! We've discussed it so deep and so long. Did Buttle come to this World and was sure that with what he got, he could win a gold? No! All other top guys faltered, and Joubert didn't do enough. Buttle rose and took the opportunity. Good for him though that he could do that.

 

[indicatoto101]

^After his LP, he asked Lee Barkell if it was good enough to get a medal. I don't think he expected to win either.

 

[kappa_1]

I just wanna give HUGE CONGRATS TO JEFFREY BUTTLE!!! This was definitely one of the best overall world winning performances of the 21st century so far. He milked COP while still maintaining superior artistry and feel for the music. I think I was just too nervous to enjoy his performance while it was happening, but now I can fully appreciate how lovely it is. After Joubert skated I thought he had the gold medal locked, and that Buttle would self-destruct again, but he surprised me by landing jump after jump. He definitely attacked the program and did all he could do. So what if he didn't have the quad? His musical interpretation is far more pleasing than any quadruple jump.

I'm not a fan of Brian's music choices or of his style in general, but his performance was incredible!!!

And Johnny Weir finally wins a world medal! Hopefully next year he can make it gold

What a world championship!

 

[Jaana]

^After his LP, he asked Lee Barkell if it was good enough to get a medal. I don't think he expected to win either.

I think that question was because Jeff did not know how the rest had skated.