Good point.
Joubert / Buttle debate nature of sport
- Thread starter Geesesk8
- Start date
Good point.
Agreed. That really says a lot about the quality of the skater's skating.
I think that the best all round skater should win rather than the best jumper which leads me to believe that Patrick Chan has a great future ahead of him because he's another all rounder like Jeff. Boy, Canada's lucky!
ITA!
I think that this is a good news for Kozuka and Oda, too!
I like the way Johnny put it.
http://www.thestar.com/Sports/FigureSkating/article/349831
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ui94y4nUNhA
news report on delobel and schoenfelder AND joubert (towards the end)
and that last second...ruined my respect for joubert
news report on delobel and schoenfelder AND joubert (towards the end)
and that last second...ruined my respect for joubert
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
How can all this be settled?
Combos should be the sum of the base values. Isn't it?
The Base Values of all Jumps should be reworked. That should not be a problem. The coaches and the skaters should know how to work their program. Maybe the skaters and coaches should give input into a proposed reworked base value system.
Bonus points and combos should be regularized into a given points number.
As to Joubert v. Buttle: The points decide. If what you think was wrong, then you must hear from the judges. They award the points not the champion.
Joe
Combos should be the sum of the base values. Isn't it?
The Base Values of all Jumps should be reworked. That should not be a problem. The coaches and the skaters should know how to work their program. Maybe the skaters and coaches should give input into a proposed reworked base value system.
Bonus points and combos should be regularized into a given points number.
As to Joubert v. Buttle: The points decide. If what you think was wrong, then you must hear from the judges. They award the points not the champion.
Joe
Jumpers vs skaters has been debated forever.
Let's just say I remember programs by Michelle Kwan and Lu Chen but none by Bonaly. Browning's Cassablanca is still fresh in my mind, but Stojko programs all look the same to me. In 1988, I remember Witt's Carmen, but not Thomas.
In a few years, Buttle's programs will still be remembered. Joubert will be one of those guys who jumped in cheesy outfits. He'll be remembered as much for his WC title as for his little spazz in 2008 when he did not win.
So yes, Buttle is more like Kwan, Joubert like Bonaly. I think that says it all.
Let's just say I remember programs by Michelle Kwan and Lu Chen but none by Bonaly. Browning's Cassablanca is still fresh in my mind, but Stojko programs all look the same to me. In 1988, I remember Witt's Carmen, but not Thomas.
In a few years, Buttle's programs will still be remembered. Joubert will be one of those guys who jumped in cheesy outfits. He'll be remembered as much for his WC title as for his little spazz in 2008 when he did not win.
So yes, Buttle is more like Kwan, Joubert like Bonaly. I think that says it all.
To a point. I think the fact that Joubert beat him in PCS the other day pretty much more or less proves my point.
I understand your point -- but I would like to comment that for the record, I happen to remember PLENTY of programs by Ms. Bonaly. That might be because most of them were watched with mouth wide open over the fact that she was crowned European Champion a couple of times before she even learned to skate!!
That trundling style of hers was pretty distinctive! Tho I may not be a huge fan of Joubert's skating, I'll at least give him credit for having the basics down pretty good.- Joined
- Dec 4, 2005
As a previous poster said - the detailed program showed why Joubert was so far behind Buttle technically.
My advice to the quadmeisters: sure it's great if you can land a couple clean in your program in addition to the other jump elements, but if you want an easier way to beat Buttle -- work on those crummy spins! Level 4 spins should be easy for competitors at the world level, but surprisingly the men actually scored level 1 and 2's. Come on guys - work on the total package and don't expect the quad to hold you up when someone like Buttle spins circles around you!
My advice to the quadmeisters: sure it's great if you can land a couple clean in your program in addition to the other jump elements, but if you want an easier way to beat Buttle -- work on those crummy spins! Level 4 spins should be easy for competitors at the world level, but surprisingly the men actually scored level 1 and 2's. Come on guys - work on the total package and don't expect the quad to hold you up when someone like Buttle spins circles around you!
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2007
TBH, I think it's the other way around. Buttle's programs aren't really that memorable. He will be remembered on the same level as like Todd Eldredge. Very good, but not quite one of the best ever.
Joubert will be remembered for being f***ing sexy.
Best single quote I've read in a while. I was reading the whole serious thread and then this comes up. And I couldn't agree more.
The thing is that many people don't understand the new system, skaters included.
Too many rules change from one year to the other. It's hard to keep track indeed
And to those people or skater, when you've been hearing all your life that all that matters are the quad, it's a big step back to see Jeff Buttle, without one, winning a world title.
Of course, had the ISU made some efforts to educate the masses, explaining why spinnng and doing steps is as important as one quad, it would have been accepted without any problems.
The french are an alltogether different matter. The coach are still at the age of making their student do jumps, and forget all there is beside it. They still haven't figured that the quality and complexity of the otther elements is maybe far more important nowadays.
There's probably only two coaches I know who understand that, being L. HUBERT and JC Simond, since they both are technical specialists for the ISU as well. Lucine could be there but he still hasn't produced any skater that is worth in the senior rank (Till dear Ponsero pulls it together, my statement will stay the same) although his junior skaters can be very good. He is the elite coach that teaches everything as being equally important at the moment.
More over; I think you don't get Jeff until you've seen him live, a bit like Sandhu. There is so much you get only live, all the little nuances (I am drooling there), that I can understand people who think he makes blah programs.
Brian had a very arrogant reaction. Like Stephane the year after her won the world title. He played it safe there, thinking Jeff would bomb. Bad thinking, because when Jeff is clean, he is still a better skater than Brian.
That's a lesson he has to learn, that you can play it safe if you're the last to skate, but if there are still a few skaters left, you have to go for it.
And he also needs to get that a spin is worth a jump.
I will nonetheless admit he raises a valid point about the base value of a quad in comparison to the base value of a triple and the difficulty between the two.
Either the ISU wants the quad to disappear, and she should say so, either she needs to give it it's proper base value.
Too many rules change from one year to the other. It's hard to keep track indeed
And to those people or skater, when you've been hearing all your life that all that matters are the quad, it's a big step back to see Jeff Buttle, without one, winning a world title.
Of course, had the ISU made some efforts to educate the masses, explaining why spinnng and doing steps is as important as one quad, it would have been accepted without any problems.
The french are an alltogether different matter. The coach are still at the age of making their student do jumps, and forget all there is beside it. They still haven't figured that the quality and complexity of the otther elements is maybe far more important nowadays.
There's probably only two coaches I know who understand that, being L. HUBERT and JC Simond, since they both are technical specialists for the ISU as well. Lucine could be there but he still hasn't produced any skater that is worth in the senior rank (Till dear Ponsero pulls it together, my statement will stay the same) although his junior skaters can be very good. He is the elite coach that teaches everything as being equally important at the moment.
More over; I think you don't get Jeff until you've seen him live, a bit like Sandhu. There is so much you get only live, all the little nuances (I am drooling there), that I can understand people who think he makes blah programs.
Brian had a very arrogant reaction. Like Stephane the year after her won the world title. He played it safe there, thinking Jeff would bomb. Bad thinking, because when Jeff is clean, he is still a better skater than Brian.
That's a lesson he has to learn, that you can play it safe if you're the last to skate, but if there are still a few skaters left, you have to go for it.
And he also needs to get that a spin is worth a jump.
I will nonetheless admit he raises a valid point about the base value of a quad in comparison to the base value of a triple and the difficulty between the two.
Either the ISU wants the quad to disappear, and she should say so, either she needs to give it it's proper base value.
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2008
I don't completely agree. For the last few years his 3A has become one of his most solid jumps, it's only this season that he's been having trouble with it, but that seems due to lack of training because of his illness, like his other jumps.
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2008
Hi everyone, I've been a lurker for a while but decided to register to hop in on this discussion. For the record, I'm a Joubert fan who thought Buttle should have won but not by such a large margin.
What bothers me about the direction this debate is taking is the implication that a skater can either be a soulless quad machine or an artistic skater who can't quite do certain jumps. I'd rather combine the points I think Joubert and Buttle were getting at: that an elite skater should be doing the hardest jumps - those being quads - but that these should be part of a complete repertoire of skating skills and elements. It's not mutually exclusive - just more difficult.
I've been reading quite a few posts about Buttle "finally" bringing artistry back, which I don't get: even if one dislikes Joubert or even Plushenko, I don't think it can be argued that Lambiel, Takahashi or, to go a few years back, Yagudin, were doing quads at the expense of their presentation.
What bothers me about the direction this debate is taking is the implication that a skater can either be a soulless quad machine or an artistic skater who can't quite do certain jumps. I'd rather combine the points I think Joubert and Buttle were getting at: that an elite skater should be doing the hardest jumps - those being quads - but that these should be part of a complete repertoire of skating skills and elements. It's not mutually exclusive - just more difficult.
I've been reading quite a few posts about Buttle "finally" bringing artistry back, which I don't get: even if one dislikes Joubert or even Plushenko, I don't think it can be argued that Lambiel, Takahashi or, to go a few years back, Yagudin, were doing quads at the expense of their presentation.
You can't get Buttle on TV. You have to see him live so that you can understand the finesse of his skating.
His artistry isn't the type to make you see he is artistic, he's not an "In your face" skater like what Lambiel does naturally and Takahashi tries to impersonnate thanks to a clever choreography althought he isn't a true artist.
Buttle and Verner are quite alike in that area, artist of a discrete kind while Lambiel is more of a show one. All three have got qualities that makes them artists so I will also disagree on saying that only Jeff brought it back.
In fact, it's the other way around so far. The artistic skaters are a lot more while I can't think of more than two athletic skaters in the top 20:frown2:
His artistry isn't the type to make you see he is artistic, he's not an "In your face" skater like what Lambiel does naturally and Takahashi tries to impersonnate thanks to a clever choreography althought he isn't a true artist.
Buttle and Verner are quite alike in that area, artist of a discrete kind while Lambiel is more of a show one. All three have got qualities that makes them artists so I will also disagree on saying that only Jeff brought it back.
In fact, it's the other way around so far. The artistic skaters are a lot more while I can't think of more than two athletic skaters in the top 20:frown2:
Really? I never saw him live, only on TV and I absolutely love his skating! I can hardly imagine that it's even better live. Wow. Hopefully once I'm going to see him live anyway!I totally agree on that!
I can't get enough of his programs because they seem better every time I watch them.
I find it funny that so many posters are upset because the Sr mens was won by a skater without the Quad but they were very willing to accept a Jr mens winner without a quad or even a 3A. Would they be saying the same thing had Kevin won Jr mens based solely on the fact that he does Quads in his LP? They were very pleased that the American Adam won Jr men's based on his great skating but for some reason they don't show the same respect for the Canadian Jeff! And to know that the American commentators even thought Brian should have won really makes one wonder if they would have called fowl had Adam not won becuase he didn't do the 3A.
Well, I guess that would be the case if you have a garden gnome fetish...
That's pretty kinky. Not my cup of tea
