Joubert / Buttle debate nature of sport

[Mathman]

My dish on this is that if a Senior skater can not produce satisfactory results in all the categories, they should not be in Seniors. Yet the judges will give different scores.

Yes, I agree that all senior skaters have satisfactory basic skills. But still, some are better than others.

Michelle Kwan had outstanding command of her edges. The stuff about forward and backward skating, skating on one foot, etc., were some of the ways she demonstrated this. Irina Slutskaya had extraordinary power and acceleration in her stroking. That is a big part of the reason why they have 7 world titles and 4 Olympic medals between them. So, the Skating Skills category is where the judges are given the opportunity to reward that aspect of a competitive program.

Transitions is where the judges reward skaters for unlisted elements like Ina Bauers, spread eagles and split jumps, as well as steps and turns connecting the scored elements. Not to be confused with...

Choreography, where all this is put together to make a coherent program out of a series of disjoint movements and tricks. Then we have...

Interpretation. This is where the skater gets to impose his/her own take on the music and on the program that he/she got from the choreographer. What does the skater bring to the program, in terms of musical expression? (This is the most subjective of the five Program Components, in my opionion.)

Of course, none of this amounts to a hill of beans unless the skater can actually deliver the goods when his/her name is called. That's...

Performance/execution. Michelle was outstanding in this category. Sasha was, also, except when technical errors detracted from the overall effect of the program. Lambiel -- when he is on -- is without peer -- unless it would be the equally superb Takahashi. This category is the judges' opportunity to say, along with the audience -- WOW!

So, I agree with the posters on this thread who say that the criteria of the five program components is quite straightforward. Now it is up to the judges to be more discriminating in their use.

 

[Mathman]

Back to Jeff:..

Watching on TV, I thought Jeff and Brian had about equal Skating Skills (the judges favored Joubert).

I thought Jeff had better Transitions (the judges agreed), better Interpretation (the judges slightly preferred Joubert), and Choreography/Composition (the judges had it a tie).

I thought Brian had better Performance/Execution (the judges agreed, as did the audience, from what I could tell, listening to the applause.))

 

[ManyCairns]

Just a general comment on the earlier points in the thread -- I think it's ironic Joubert thinks COP rewards cleaner performance of easier stuff. Actually, it's usually quite the opposite, even though in a way that isn't what happened in the Men's event (referring primarily to the quad).

Maybe the quad is a special case, although I wouldn't be in favor of changing any values or GOEs in relation to it. But generally, I think COP is "watch me pick up points as I fall out of this jump because I at least did rotations in the air." Usually, you do better to do the harder stuff messily. Joubert just left out too many elements in this particular case.

 

[BigJohn]

Watching on TV, I thought Jeff and Brian had about equal Skating Skills (the judges favored Joubert).

I thought Jeff had better Transitions (the judges agreed), better Interpretation (the judges slightly preferred Joubert), and Choreography/Composition (the judges had it a tie).

I thought Brian had better Performance/Execution (the judges agreed, as did the audience, from what I could tell, listening to the applause.))

Apart from Performance/Execution, I don't see Joubert tying or being better than Buttle anywhere in the FS. I really find these marks questionnable.

 

[NatachaHatawa]

Apart from Performance/Execution, I don't see Joubert tying or being better than Buttle anywhere in the FS. I really find these marks questionnable.

Well it's very subjective. I keep on hearing people going on about Jeff's artistry, yet somehow he bores me to death. On the other hand I kepp on hearing people criticize Brian's apparent lack of artistry, yet he gives me goosebumps.

 

[Mathman]

...he gives me goosebumps.

Me, too. But I think the goosebumps come from the excitement, energy, and competitive spirit that Brian brings, rather than from the aesthetics of his performances.

 

[BigJohn]

Well it's very subjective. I keep on hearing people going on about Jeff's artistry, yet somehow he bores me to death. On the other hand I kepp on hearing people criticize Brian's apparent lack of artistry, yet he gives me goosebumps.

Me, too. But I think the goosebumps come from the excitement, energy, and competitive spirit that Brian brings, rather than from the aesthetics of his performances.

I think Mathman got it perfectly right there. It is difficult not to be impressed by the energy of Joubert when he's on.

But Buttle's programs are so well constructed, the in-betweens are actually meaningfull, perfect use of the tinyest variations of the music, everything so well tied together.

Both are great skaters, but I guess Buttle is more the artist, Joubert more the entertainer.

 

[life684]

I believe best executed program should win. But figure skating is a sport it needs difficulty, at present there are not enough incentives to do a hard jumps especially quads, difference between 2A and 3t is just 1.5 and same is the difference between 3a and 4t. One would expect this to gap to stretched a bit more ; and on combination they can add 10% extra on second jump and 20% extra on third Jump.

 

[BigJohn]

... difference between 2A and 3t is just 1.5 and same is the difference between 3a and 4t.

Seems to me to be adequate. It is only 1/2 rotation more, and the take off is more difficult for the axel than the toe loop.

 

[life684]

Seems to me to be adequate. It is only 1/2 rotation more, and the take off is more difficult for the axel than the toe loop.

but majority of the skater fail to do a quad even though it is only 1/2 the rotation from triple axel; remember buttle got a good 3a but fails to do a quad, which is sort of threshold for skater and needs to rewarded more.

Lysacek, weir also have problems moving from 3axel to 4t .

 

[Bennett]

I thought it cool that Jeff' earned the third highest score in ISU history under the CoP, after Takahashi and Plush. I wonder why the other guys with the quad couldn't have reached that score yet.

 

[Bennett]

I think Mathman got it perfectly right there. It is difficult not to be impressed by the energy of Joubert when he's on.

But Buttle's programs are so well constructed, the in-betweens are actually meaningfull, perfect use of the tinyest variations of the music, everything so well tied together.

Both are great skaters, but I guess Buttle is more the artist, Joubert more the entertainer.

I completely agree. Jeff cares about the programs so much and puts his heart in them. His programs are very well constructed. The music is carefully chosen and choreos have meanings. He interprets different notes and melodies of the music so well and perform accordingly. His programs are so rich and have a lot of different emotions and narratives in them. That's why I feel as if I were watching a film when I see Jeff's performances.

I do enjoy Brian's energy. But regardless of the music, his skating would have the same energy and excitement. That's what I don't call "interpretation".

 

[Buttercup]

I thought it cool that Jeff' earned the third highest score in ISU history under the CoP, after Takahashi and Plush. I wonder why the other guys with the quad couldn't have reached that score yet.

Well, both Buttle and Takahashi earned those scores this year - and Takahashi's score was at Four Continents, in which the judges were apparently rather enthusiastic with the GOEs. I think scores in general have gone up this year due to more generosity with levels and GOEs than there was in the past. For instance, Joubert's 3-quad program at CoR last year had a lower TS than Buttle's winning FS at worlds this year, which, with all due respect to the quality of Jeff's skating, strikes me as strange. Regardless, I'm fairly certain every skater out there on the ice cares about his/her performance and puts everything they have into their skating. Otherwise they wouldn't be where they are.

As for the goosebumps factor, I'm with NatachaHatawa: it's totally subjective. I don't get the feeling some of you guys get when you watch Jeff skate - I appreciate the quality but it just doesn't connect with me.

What I do like about the current contenders in the men's is that each one of them is completely different from the others, so you get really great variety as a viewer and fan. Both Jeff and Brian are a part of that, and I respect them both - but cheer for Brian (and for Tomas Verner, because he's so adorable).

 

[elye]

The difference between Jeff and Brian is not only about the jump.

As I see, when Brian skate he seems to say " Hey look at me! I am the strogest and I will show you!"
Jeff instead seem to say "Trust me and come in the perfect world that I made for you!"

The difference make competition more excting for us and push them to improve!

 

[Kinga]

The difference between Jeff and Brian is not only about the jump.

As I see, when Brian skate he seems to say " Hey look at me! I am the strogest and I will show you!"
Jeff instead seem to say "Trust me and come in the perfect world that I made for you!"

The difference make competition more excting for us and push them to improve!

Perfectly said

What I do like about the current contenders in the men's is that each one of them is completely different from the others, so you get really great variety as a viewer and fan.

Exactly, not like in ladies competition, where with very few exceptions, competitiors are more less the same... Which makes the competition rather boring. In men, it is always exciting with so many different styles. I emphasized already few times in different threads, that strikingly, it has been quite a few years now that men have much more fantasy, feel the music much better, interpretate the music better than ladies.

 

[NatachaHatawa]

Me, too. But I think the goosebumps come from the excitement, energy, and competitive spirit that Brian brings, rather than from the aesthetics of his performances.

Mmm. I see what you mean. For me Brian is one of the best interpreters one the ice, he could skate to anything if he wanted to, he just gives so much in his performances. It turns out the real debate is performance vs aesthetics.
I agree with you one a lot of his programs, but not all of them.

 

[BigJohn]

As I see, when Brian skate he seems to say " Hey look at me! I am the strogest and I will show you!"
Jeff instead seem to say "Trust me and come in the perfect world that I made for you!"

When I read this, it reminded me of actors.

Joubert skates like Tom Cruise acts.

Buttle skates like Gael García Bernal acts.

All right, this comment is a little bit out there, but it kinda makes sense.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think having a favorite skater is very personal, and has nothing to do with the outcome of a competition.

The presumed best at competition is the skater who is judged with the most points.

Joe

 

[NatachaHatawa]

I think having a favorite skater is very personal, and has nothing to do with the outcome of a competition.

The presumed best at competition is the skater who is judged with the most points.

Joe

I so agree! I'm Brian's biggest fan and I still think Jeff deserved gold!

 

[Bennett]

Well, both Buttle and Takahashi earned those scores this year - and Takahashi's score was at Four Continents, in which the judges were apparently rather enthusiastic with the GOEs. I think scores in general have gone up this year due to more generosity with levels and GOEs than there was in the past. For instance, Joubert's 3-quad program at CoR last year had a lower TS than Buttle's winning FS at worlds this year, which, with all due respect to the quality of Jeff's skating, strikes me as strange. Regardless, I'm fairly certain every skater out there on the ice cares about his/her performance and puts everything they have into their skating. Otherwise they wouldn't be where they are.

Yeah, I totally agree that 4CC was such an overrated competition for men. I somehow haven't gotten an impression that Worlds was also overrated for men in GOEs. Was it?

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Jeff's talk about the quad:
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/...ive/2008/03/31/newsmaker-noah-for-monday.aspx

NP Brian Joubert, the silver medalist at the worlds, groused at the post-skate press conference that you didn’t even attempt a quad-jump. Was that just sour grapes on his part?
JB Honestly, in the moment, he was probably frustrated and I could have said a few things back. But I chose not to. He had one jump that I didn’t have, but unfortunately, for him, there are 11 other jumps in the long program and I happened to score higher. And it wasn’t a win by a small margin, so I didn’t take it personally, plus, I had the gold medal around my neck.

NP Will you need a quad-jump in your program to challenge for gold at the Olympics in 2010?
JB I saw Daisuke Takahashi do two quads in the long program at the Four Continents event, and he amassed this huge score that none of us could touch. But on this day I was the best, but anything could happen on another day, and so I take it from it that, well, this is awesome — I won a world championship without the quad — but I need to put it in the program.

Sounds very nice! He also should be proud of earning the third highest score under the CoP system without a quad