Artistry VS, Technical

[CzarinaAnya]

Should there be a separation of the two? Like into diff parts of competition. There could be 1 program for just artistic expression and 1 for technical, then 1 that combines both. I would love to see something of that nature. That way both could be enjoyed & jumps wouldn't be the key concentration. & we would have a well rounded competition.

What do you think? Any ideas to add?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I find it difficult to see the runovers between the Tech and PCS. Where is Artistry (I prefer Presentation) judged? Is it in the Plus GoEs? Levels? or somewhere in the PCS?

Joe

 

[gkelly]

Qualities such as body line that go into making technical skating elements beautiful may also be rewarded in in the GOEs for those elements. The "artistry" in those cases is comparable to whatever artistry you perceive in, say, a beautiful dive or ski jump or parallel bars routine. So whether that's a measure of artistry or not depends how you define artistry.

In general the qualities that contribute to artistry in figure skating are judged in the Performance/Execution, Choreography, and Interpretation components.

I think there would be a place for elite-level skating competitions that are judged completely or almost completely on the qualities considered under those components. Or maybe including Skating Skills and Transitions as well.

I don't think the correct place would be as another phase of the same competition that rewards the hardest technical elements.

I'm not sure it would be considered a sports competition.

But it would be of interest to fans and to skaters who are more interested in pushing the artistic possibilities of skating as an artistic medium than in pushing the technical/athletic boundaries (higher - faster - stronger).

Maybe some organization other than the ISU would need to organize it. Or the ISU should organize it separately from the athletic competitions.

Let skaters who want to enter artistic competitions do those, and let skaters who want to compete in skating as a sport do that, and have different winners. Some skaters might do both, but it would not be necessary.

 

[CzarinaAnya]

Qualities such as body line that go into making technical skating elements beautiful may also be rewarded in in the GOEs for those elements. The "artistry" in those cases is comparable to whatever artistry you perceive in, say, a beautiful dive or ski jump or parallel bars routine. So whether that's a measure of artistry or not depends how you define artistry.

In general the qualities that contribute to artistry in figure skating are judged in the Performance/Execution, Choreography, and Interpretation components.

I think there would be a place for elite-level skating competitions that are judged completely or almost completely on the qualities considered under those components. Or maybe including Skating Skills and Transitions as well.

I don't think the correct place would be as another phase of the same competition that rewards the hardest technical elements.

Well, I would like to see in an artisic program, interpretation of the music. Kind of like pairs turns into dance when you take away the jumps(excluding the ballroom, but you know what I mean.) I guess, I'm pretty much saying to ax the jumps for ONE program & keep them in the tech program & the program equivalent to the normal LP.

I'm not an expert, obviously, but I know I'm pretty tired of programs being nothing but a COP calculator. They hardly have any creativity in them, anymore, because the freedom to choose your moves are gone. IMO You can't even do a spin in the "normal" direction or you won't be racking up the max amount of points you could possibly get.

 

[NatachaHatawa]

technique and artistry go together, they're not in opposition.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

technique and artistry go together, they're not in opposition.

Absolutely!!! A perfect jump, spin, basic transition all contribute to the art of figure skating.

The Technical is the definition of the elements. How an element is executed is whether there is technique or none (underrotations, accidental slides, etc.) and will either add to, or take away from, artistry.

Since Figure Skating is a Sport with a component of artistry (I still prefer to call it Presentation), the question always is which is more important or are they equal? That's where the answer comes up as IMO.

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Ooooh, I forgot. CzarinaAna brougt up a very special point about Figure Skating which is the music. So performing the technique to the music will be a must to challenge the technical and offer what I consider the key to deciding a champion.

Keeping with the tempo and changes of tempo will, imo, really determine the winner in case of a tie. Certainly, the audience at a competition will go for that.

Joe

 

[NatachaHatawa]

Absolutely!!! A perfect jump, spin, basic transition all contribute to the art of figure skating.

The Technical is the definition of the elements. How an element is executed is whether there is technique or none (underrotations, accidental slides, etc.) and will either add to, or take away from, artistry.

Since Figure Skating is a Sport with a component of artistry (I still prefer to call it Presentation), the question always is which is more important or are they equal? That's where the answer comes up as IMO.

Joe

I think they are equal. Figure skating is both a sport and an art, each of them profit to each other.

 

[SamuraiKike]

For me it should always be Artistry PLUS Technical, never VS. For me skating is a sport first of all, but an artistic one and people should never forget that. The best skater IMO is the one who can execute the elements with good technique and also with elegance and musicality. Figure skating will always be about the total package for me.

So, no I wouldnt like those separate competitions. Maybe at novice levels to help them improve in the areas which are the most lacking for each competitor. But at elite level NO NO.

 

[bondgirl]

Sounds like a great idea, :thumbsup: but wish they would go a step further and allow someone to choose either event and have a winner for each. Some of us aren't that into the "artistry" thing and if you had an event that concentrated on the jumps, (maybe where you could use heavy metal music like Evan said). You might attract more boys to the sport. (Most guys aren't into Swan Lake.) And you would "save" the artistry which many of you believe is (unfairly?) being overlooked in favor of the athletics.

I know the whole figure skating thing started by copying ballet on ice, but some of us just don't like ballet, (or dance for that matter), and there doesn't seem to be anywhere for us, (no jump cometitions at National/Wold level, except during exhibitions for "fun.") The attitude is kind of like: "Well, if jumping/athletics is all you want to do, just stay out of the serious skaters' way. Go practice in the corner." It would be nice if they could bring in an event for us to compete in at national level. Like Even suggested in the article, it would also bring more boys into the sport. http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/18/sports/skate.php
(When they see guys in feathers and rheinstones walking on their toes, most boys kind of smirk and put on hockey gear. Unfortunately.)

 

[Bennett]

Sounds like a great idea, :thumbsup: but wish they would go a step further and allow someone to choose either event and have a winner for each. Some of us aren't that into the "artistry" thing and if you had an event that concentrated on the jumps, (maybe where you could use heavy metal music like Evan said). You might attract more boys to the sport. (Most guys aren't into Swan Lake.) And you would "save" the artistry which many of you believe is (unfairly?) being overlooked in favor of the athletics.

I know the whole figure skating thing started by copying ballet on ice, but some of us just don't like ballet, (or dance for that matter), and there doesn't seem to be anywhere for us, (no jump cometitions at National/Wold level, except during exhibitions for "fun.") The attitude is kind of like: "Well, if jumping/athletics is all you want to do, just stay out of the serious skaters' way. Go practice in the corner." It would be nice if they could bring in an event for us to compete in at national level. Like Even suggested in the article, it would also bring more boys into the sport. http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/18/sports/skate.php
(When they see guys in feathers and rheinstones walking on their toes, most boys kind of smirk and put on hockey gear. Unfortunately.)

Wow, thank you for your interesting insights. I've never thought of this matter that way perhaps because I just like artistic programs skated by technically well-rounded skaters (Like Jeff, Daisuke, Yuna, and Mao). I never thought of separating them out.

As long as they use any music, however, I don't think they could get away from "dancing". Even in gymnastics they really need to "dance" as long as music is on. Regardless of the type of music, whether it's classics or wild rock, they really need to dance to the music if they use music.

So perhaps ppl who like to see only atheleticism, I think they could do so element by element like the skating test. When I skated as a child, I remember excuting just one jump or one spin and judges evaluate your skills purely from the technical perspective.

 

[bondgirl]

Did some research on it. Does seem to be....well, ....something???.....at the elite level, but I think it was, maybe a one time only thing. All of the videos said the contest was held in France and they all were from 2002. Wonder if it is annual and just not highly publicized?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRQ0aWWwA9g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2DH408Misc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n79zhJOTRgA
There does seem to be some sort of background music but, like you said, better to keep the music out of it, otherwise it opens the door to the "artistic impression" thing....:agree:
Would like to see something like this on a sectional (local), National, World, Olympic level in itself. There are jump competitions at the local level at some competitions for the kids to have "fun", but the test structure prerequisite mandates MITF for that level. (Before you can take/pass the corresponding FS test.) Have discussed this on another thread. Would be nice if there was just a FS (jump) test or something, without the MITF. Or, better yet, make it democratic and open to the public. Anyone who could do the jump, (or thinks they can), is allowed to enter. A sloppy 3 turn or mohawk could be counted out as a quality deduction on the enterence to the jump itself, (also it would probably throw the jump off in the air, anyhow). And deduct for wrap if you must. (Sigh.) hwell:
I really do think this might be the way to appeal to more guys....but that's another thread.

 

[passion]

Should there be a separation of the two? Like into diff parts of competition. There could be 1 program for just artistic expression and 1 for technical, then 1 that combines both. I would love to see something of that nature. That way both could be enjoyed & jumps wouldn't be the key concentration. & we would have a well rounded competition.

What do you think? Any ideas to add?

I think they're already some lower level competitions that have competitions strictly for spinning and another for jumps and another called interpretive. I think that's fine for recreational skaters or Star Skaters or adults, but not for competitive skaters. I really don't think you can separate skating that way because for me, skating is about the whole package doing it all at once. That's what makes it so difficult. You have skaters who are more artistically inclined and others that are more athletically inclined, but to find a skater who is superior at both is much more uncommon. In my mind, I just can't separate technical from artistic. For instance, if I'm watching an artistic skater they still have to be very technically sound otherwise they're artistry is lost. If I'm watching an athletic skater who is great at jumping, but everything else is meh and no musicality, there is no meaning in their skating. To be well rounded is to be able to be athletic and artistic simultaneously.

 

[Ladskater]

No, not really since skaters have to show both technical and artistic sides of their skating. True some skaters are more artistic than others they still have to have good technical qualities to their basic skating.

 

[vlaurend]

The National Showcase competition is an artistry/presentation competition.
http://www.usfsa.org/Story.asp?id=35116
http://www.usfsa.org/Story.asp?id=39227

 

[CzarinaAnya]

technique and artistry go together, they're not in opposition.

I didn't mean for them to sound like they're in opposition. I prob should have worded the title of the thread better.

I don't want to there to be separate competitions, just programs. 1 artistic, 1 tech, & 1 combo of tech & artistic. I would love to see where some elite skaters thrive or fail when either tech or art is stripped away for a moment.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think they are equal. Figure skating is both a sport and an art, each of them profit to each other.

So is Ski Jump, Gymnastics, Diving, and I am sure other Sports as well. Good form in performance helps the Downhill Skier.

By the way, Poker requires a lot of body language.

Joe

 

[Mafke]

I find it difficult to see the runovers between the Tech and PCS. Where is Artistry (I prefer Presentation) judged? Is it in the Plus GoEs? Levels? or somewhere in the PCS?

Nowhere, because presentation does not figure into modern competitions anymore than figures do.

There is GoE which seems entirely technica and PCs which seem to have no inherent standard or meaning but serve primarily to rank skaters on whatever grounds a particular judge wants to.

Again, presentation no longer exists as something that's taken into account.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Nowhere, because presentation does not figure into modern competitions anymore than figures do.

There is GoE which seems entirely technica and PCs which seem to have no inherent standard or meaning but serve primarily to rank skaters on whatever grounds a particular judge wants to.

Again, presentation no longer exists as something that's taken into account.

Mafke - Your thread is very interesting and I agree with it. The PCS scores are indeed a collection of meaningless standards and are used to inflate the total score of a favored skater. The PCS is soooo subjective.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

...PCs which seem to have no inherent standard or meaning but serve primarily to rank skaters on whatever grounds a particular judge wants to.

Actually, IMO this is not so bad. Skating is a judged sport. The skater wins whose performance the majority of the judges liked best.

To me, the Program Component Scores are nothing more or less than the old Second Mark. The judges decide who they thought skated the best and give that person 6.75s across the board. Then they decide who they thought was second best and give that skater 6.50.