I think Jeff would have had to be 4th or 5th or lower under 6.0 for Joubert to win
Men's Long Program
- Thread starter jiggs
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I think Jeff would have had to be 4th or 5th or lower under 6.0 for Joubert to win
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Nothing to it. The free skate goes Joubert (4 factored placements), Lambiel (4.5), Verner (5), Takahashi (5.5), Weir (6), Buttle (6.5).
But I think JCoates' original post was not about that. I believe JCoates was talking just about how to maximize your points in a single skate. Goliath can't just do a couple of quads and call it a day, because David will be pitching stones at his ankles with triple Axels, big combos, and high level spins and footwork.
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2006
Joubert winning is dependent on how Jeff would've skated under 6.0 (an COP). Joubert's factored placements: sp-3, lp-1,= 4. Jeff's factored placements: sp-.5. So he would only have needed to place 3rd in the lp to win under 6.0 (3 + .5 < 4).
I don't think Jeff won because he was lucky. His elements base value was simply magnificent and definitely a Gold contender as summarized by the poster below. Everyone in the last group was a gold contender. But we barely see a competition in which every contender does his best. The winner wins not only because others made mistakes, but primarily because he did well.
Jeff's win came as a surprise just because he hadn't been clean for a while. But two clean performances couldn't have been delivered by "luck." He earned his title.
Jeff's win came as a surprise just because he hadn't been clean for a while. But two clean performances couldn't have been delivered by "luck." He earned his title.
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- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Both skaters skated exceptionally well. It turned out to be a question of whether an intricate program should override a quad? If I were judging under 6.0, I would have given it to Joubert. His program was more than adquate and the jumps are sensational. However, now that the program is being judged as well as the skater is, then I leave it to the computer to come up with the winner. I don't see anything unfair or judging inadequacies to question the outcome.
Joe
Joe
It doesn't sound like Caro who seems to be so happy and adorable. I feel that it was mistranslated or something. I feel that she just wanted to say that she worked hard on artistry and improved a lot (I do really think that she did), not to mean to compare her with others. But then perhaps the question was framed in such a way that it sounds as if she downplayed the Japanese skaters. But she really doesn't seem to be the type of person who makes this kind of mean comment. I place trust in her personality
YES!!! Jeff Buttle is the 2008 WORLD CHAMPION!!That was the best, cleanset FS I've ever seen him do. He won this one fair and square. I'm so happy that he won when he really earned it, so that he can take pride in that. It would have been such a shame if a skater of his caliber had to finish his career without a world title. BTW, I don't think that Joubert's reaction to his FS was cocky at all. He's had a hard year, and he was pleased. His comments about Jeff and the quad, however, really rubbed me the wrong way. I can think of pleanty of times when Jeff could have complained that his artistry wasn't rewarded enough, and he NEVER has.
ITA. It is really amazing that his PCSs were lower than Joubert again here. But he never complains.
Despite never being adequately rewarded, he says that he worked hard everything because that's what makes FS and that's what he feels passionate about. I like his skating philosophy here.
http://www.globesports.com/servlet/...r/?page=rss&id=RTGAM.20080322.wspt-buttle0322
Sorry for multiple posts in a row as I came here late!
Takahashi is always extremely modest and humble and pays the greatest respect to his fellow competitors. He says a lot of wonderful things to other skaters including even junior skaters whose names ppl don't recognize. I guess he really seems to be interested in learning good things from others. I think that he is very softhearted and nice. But that might have contributed to some nerve issues. I feel that perhaps he had a lot of anxiety and confidence issue after his practices were getting falling apart right before the competition.
Yet, I still think that both Yuna and Takahashi prove that you can be humble, modest, nice, but still a strong competitor. Perhaps he just needed to be a bit calmer, more relaxed, and more easy-going. Takahashi may be a little bit more delicate/sensitive and emotional in that aspect than Yuna. I heartily hope that the wound of this dissapointment will heal soon and that he could come back stronger next season without any injuries. Have a good rest and acknowledge what you had accomplished throughout the season
Takahashi is always extremely modest and humble and pays the greatest respect to his fellow competitors. He says a lot of wonderful things to other skaters including even junior skaters whose names ppl don't recognize. I guess he really seems to be interested in learning good things from others. I think that he is very softhearted and nice. But that might have contributed to some nerve issues. I feel that perhaps he had a lot of anxiety and confidence issue after his practices were getting falling apart right before the competition.
Yet, I still think that both Yuna and Takahashi prove that you can be humble, modest, nice, but still a strong competitor. Perhaps he just needed to be a bit calmer, more relaxed, and more easy-going. Takahashi may be a little bit more delicate/sensitive and emotional in that aspect than Yuna. I heartily hope that the wound of this dissapointment will heal soon and that he could come back stronger next season without any injuries. Have a good rest and acknowledge what you had accomplished throughout the season
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- Joined
- Mar 19, 2008
I wonder which practice they watched then... <_< I was at the practice Sat morning and Daisuke and Jeff were those who looked strongest. Perfect in every way. Lambiel on the other hand didn't land a single jump!! I felt so sorry for him. I don't know if there was any thought behind it, but when it was Jeff's turn to practice to his music, he had already left the ice. Trying to psyching out the others?
He proved himself strong and unbeatable, that's for sure.
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2007
I wonder which practice they watched then... <_< I was at the practice Sat morning and Daisuke and Jeff were those who looked strongest. Perfect in every way. Lambiel on the other hand didn't land a single jump!! I felt so sorry for him. I don't know if there was any thought behind it, but when it was Jeff's turn to practice to his music, he had already left the ice. Trying to psyching out the others?
Well, it's just what they told us before he started. I can't remember if it was German, British or Dutch Eurosport, I zap between the comments...
But they just said "Quad" - so it's possible that Daisuke landed everything else and therefore still looked strong.
I hope that Stéphane can forget this season very quickly. Or not forget it but learn from it and put it behind him. Train that stupid Axel. Or a Quad. He wouldn't need the Axel if he had another Quad. He was talking about training the Quad Loop for fun but says he doesn't need it because it's not rewarded enough. Perhaps he should rethink that.
I am so sad that he didn't fulfil his dream of performing a clean "Poèta".
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2006
I wonder which practice they watched then... <_< I was at the practice Sat morning and Daisuke and Jeff were those who looked strongest. Perfect in every way. Lambiel on the other hand didn't land a single jump!! I felt so sorry for him. I don't know if there was any thought behind it, but when it was Jeff's turn to practice to his music, he had already left the ice. Trying to psyching out the others?
According to the Japanese media, Takahashi's jump consistency was getting lower and lower as the week passed by. Morozov suggested they take out the second quad, but Takahashi opted to stick to the original plan, because he wanted to give his best try - and he has paid dearly.
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2008
KvdP on the third hand couldn't land the quad, he tried and tried and tried and look quite p*ssed off at the end of practice. But what a FS he did in the afternoon! Wow, that tripple combo!
Stéphane looked quite resolted and concentrated...
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/4007/dsc0232ws4.jpg
Stéphane looked quite resolted and concentrated...
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/4007/dsc0232ws4.jpg
Sad About Poeta Too...
I went to Goteborg hoping to see one of those figure skating monents that people talk about for years and remember as being one of the greatest (if not the greatest) free skating programs ever skated by a man. The fact is that if Stephane had skated the program well, nobody could have touched him. It was there for the taking.
The question must be: what has happened to the guy who, granted, always had trouble with the 3A but had the quad and quads in combination? Remember Dortmund when he threw in a quad that was not even planned? That "late in the program" quad was aways there. It was rock solid; you could take it to the bank.
I know he is frustrated with a scoring system that limits creativity. So am I. But his talent is enormous and it is sad to see it not exercised to its potential. I think he needs to decide if he can continue operating in this system. If he does, then he has to train and work to get those jumps back. Show skating is creative and maybe that is what he wants to do now, but there is nobody who has the ability to deliver the kinds of compelling performances like he can.
And goodness knows, with the free program not really being "free" anymore - with everybody repeating the same moves to get the highest possible points, skating desperately needs someobody who can break through the boredom of that. If I would have had to have seen one more skater putting head to knee cap, I would have feared for the safety of those sitting around me.
I hope he comes back next year but if he does, he has to have the jumps as well as the footwork and spins which in the "free" program were not even up to snuff.
I went to Goteborg hoping to see one of those figure skating monents that people talk about for years and remember as being one of the greatest (if not the greatest) free skating programs ever skated by a man. The fact is that if Stephane had skated the program well, nobody could have touched him. It was there for the taking.
The question must be: what has happened to the guy who, granted, always had trouble with the 3A but had the quad and quads in combination? Remember Dortmund when he threw in a quad that was not even planned? That "late in the program" quad was aways there. It was rock solid; you could take it to the bank.
I know he is frustrated with a scoring system that limits creativity. So am I. But his talent is enormous and it is sad to see it not exercised to its potential. I think he needs to decide if he can continue operating in this system. If he does, then he has to train and work to get those jumps back. Show skating is creative and maybe that is what he wants to do now, but there is nobody who has the ability to deliver the kinds of compelling performances like he can.
And goodness knows, with the free program not really being "free" anymore - with everybody repeating the same moves to get the highest possible points, skating desperately needs someobody who can break through the boredom of that. If I would have had to have seen one more skater putting head to knee cap, I would have feared for the safety of those sitting around me.
I hope he comes back next year but if he does, he has to have the jumps as well as the footwork and spins which in the "free" program were not even up to snuff.
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2008
I totally agree with you. My friend and I talked about this the other day; no-one can deliver and express emotions like Stéphane. This Worlds, Brian won over Stéphane, but he feels stiff and no way as mature as Stéphane, he's light years behind. We tried to think what it would've looked like if Brian did Stéphane's FS and began to laugh. Brian is good with what he's doing but Stéphane skates at another level, with another feeling, that's for sure. I just hope that the 'old' Stéphane will come back...
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2007
Brian may not be able to skate Stéphane's program - but I also can't imagine Stéphane doing a convincing Metallica.
I luuuuve Stéphane's programs, 4 Seasons, Poèta etc. But I definitely enjoy watching Joubert too - he may not be Picasso on ice, but he is a great performer, I think he deserved every bit of PCS he got at this Worlds. He skated his program with conviction, with power and interpreted the music well and entertained the audience. What more do you want? And Brian's short is amazing, totally love it. He mostly keeps a program for more than one season, so I guess we will see it again next year - and I am looking forward to it.
The same goes for vdPerren - there was nothing artistic (whatever that means...) about his performance, but it was a great performance, you felt that he loved being out there, he skated well to the music, he had fun! And brought the house down.
Maturity is not artistry in my opinion. A mature skater - performance-wise - gives me the feeling that he/she understands the program, does the movements because it fits the program and music and not because the choreographer told him 2 months ago that he has to raise his arm at this point. Maturity is to me if the skater skates with conviction, with self-confidence and self-assurance. And than it doesn't matter if the program is Cyber-Swan, Camille Saint-Saens, Safri Duo, Vivaldi, Metallica or Poèta.
There were not many performances among the men that fit my definition of maturity at this Worlds - but I have to say that Brian's long and also the short (despite the fall a great performance) belong to them. Stéphane on the other hand seemed a bit lost, very nervous and somehow anxious. Do you remember the last step sequence in his Four Seasons program at Worlds 2006? Magnificent, it gives me chills everytime I watch it - his fire, his emotions - the conviction in every move... It wasn't really there last week.
I was also impressed with the amount of conviction and emotion Takahashi brought into his performance despite the serious jump problems. Kudos to him - it certainly wasn't as great and glorious as it was at 4CC, but he kept going, didn't seem to be as discouraged as Stéphane. Johnny didn't have as many jump problems as Takahashi, but his performance was very tentative, he seemed as anxious and nervous as Stéphane - and the quality of the performance was light-years away from the convincing and complete performance in the short program. But I am still very happy that he kept it together, landed the jumps and snatched that Bronze
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- Joined
- Mar 12, 2007
Doesn't Stephane have knee problems? Talk about something that would affect not only your jumps but just about every aspect of your skating -- you need that knee bend to get deep in your edges, and that's the basis of just about everything, isn't it?
I'm not trying to make excuses for Stephane -- maybe he just isn't happy with competition skating anymore -- remember the comments before last year's Worlds about needing to take care of the Little Prince inside, or something like that (I know that's his nickname)?
Maybe his heart isn't in it -- or maybe he's just in pain and with unreliable knees. I've had major knee reconstruction after putting it off for about 7 years -- I know what it's like and I'm not even an athlete of any kind, much less a world-class one!
I'm not trying to make excuses for Stephane -- maybe he just isn't happy with competition skating anymore -- remember the comments before last year's Worlds about needing to take care of the Little Prince inside, or something like that (I know that's his nickname)?
Maybe his heart isn't in it -- or maybe he's just in pain and with unreliable knees. I've had major knee reconstruction after putting it off for about 7 years -- I know what it's like and I'm not even an athlete of any kind, much less a world-class one!
I thought that Lambiel was above Takahashi. But it turned out to be otherwise. He did worse than Takahashi at GPF and still won. But here they looked almost equivalent and Lambiel lost. I didn't understand why even after looking the protocol. I love them both and love Daisuke even better. But I still thought that Daisuke would come below Lambiel. Could anyone please help me better make sense of it?
Nothing to it. The free skate goes Joubert (4 factored placements), Lambiel (4.5), Verner (5), Takahashi (5.5), Weir (6), Buttle (6.5).
But I think JCoates' original post was not about that. I believe JCoates was talking just about how to maximize your points in a single skate. Goliath can't just do a couple of quads and call it a day, because David will be pitching stones at his ankles with triple Axels, big combos, and high level spins and footwork.
Sorry I've been missing for a day and half but work has been a bear. Thanks Mathman for clarifying for me. That's exactly what I meant. I guess to be more specific, I should have given an example of a similar situation happening under the 6.0 system.
I can think of one case (not an exact match) where a more "athletic" program full of quality jumps may not have done the trick these days, but was fine under 6.0. It's the1997 men's freeskate at the Grand Prix Final (Stojko, Eldredge, Urmanov, and Kulik). That was the first event I can remember where most of the top men were doing quads head to head. The exception was Todd Eldredge. In the end, the placements were Elvis (1st), Todd (2nd), Alexei (3rd) and Ilia (4th?). However, if you compare the programs of the top two that year, the main difference was that Elvis outjumped Todd based on doing a quad toe in combination. His spins were, as usual, not that great. But the only top man back then with truly good spins was Todd. His footwork was also not up to his usual standard from past seasons. On the other hand, Todd, did eight triples including 3a/3t and (I believe) 3f/3t and a second 3a. He also had higher quality spins and (in that program) more intricate footwork, connecting steps and edge work. Todd beat the others who despite their quads still had mistakes. But his overall quality was not enough top Elvis. Under COP I think Todd would have won that event just as Jeff did this year. It's an interesting contrast in approaches. Both can win under the right circumstances. You just have to be diligent about the value of the content you are doing. Otherwise, if you can't keep track, don't make changes that may end up costing you in the end (e.g. Joubert, Takahashi, Chan, Carriere etc.). The standings might have been very different if they had not deviated from their planned elements.
