The Case for Handwork: Balancing Art and Sport in Figure Skating | Page 3 | Golden Skate

The Case for Handwork: Balancing Art and Sport in Figure Skating

IMO, figure skating is an athletic sport. As such, it can be executed with grace and artistic expression. Or it can be executed with precision and a lack of lightness (can't come up with a better word.) And a VERY VERY few skaters can embody both. I don't think it's any different than gymnastics or a track runner or even a racehorse. It's all a matter of the style used to participate in the sport. And before I get laughed off the board, and speaking of racehorses and my point to this post, there are horses that are absolutely beautiful and graceful when they run and then there are horses that attack the track with energy and that precision I mentioned. BOTH can win. It's just how they deliver. But is it art? I don't think you'll ever get a consensus of opinion because different people have different concepts of what constitutes art! I've seen some skaters that get high marks in presentation and I almost have to laugh. Just because they landed some difficult jumps does not make them artistic.
 
Anything that is qualitative (e.g., if the bullet point calls for something to be "good") will be subject to individual perception. Or, really, anything that can't be measured or counted. In that sense, we can call it "subjective."

I think a difference needs to be made about something that is actually subjective, because it depends on your taste, cultural and personal priming etc. and hence cannot be argued with in terms of better or worse, and an object of study which could be assessed in such terms in theory, but it's extremely difficult to decide in praxis. To give a very clear example of the second: in soccer it can be difficult to actually decide whether a ball has fully crossed the line. Even the hawk-eye sometimes is not fully decisive. Nonetheless, this is not a subjective question. I think sometimes people conflate these.
To me that looks like a very important point to first be made when talking about these questions.
 
... I don't think it's any different than gymnastics or a track runner or even a racehorse. It's all a matter of the style used to participate in the sport. And before I get laughed off the board, and speaking of racehorses and my point to this post, there are horses that are absolutely beautiful and graceful when they run and then there are horses that attack the track with energy and that precision I mentioned. BOTH can win. It's just how they deliver.'''

Thank you for the horse racing example. But where the question arises is in the scoring. A horse wins if he (or she) crosses the finish line first. How majestically he prences across the line, pleasing though it my be to the esthetic sensibilities of the fans,, does not play a role in detrmining who won.

Now take the Olympic sport of dressage. Suddenly the determination of which rider has cultivated and displays the most pleasing seat jumps into the picture. I do not know anything about scoring in dressage (horse-dancing is more my sport), so I looked it up on howtodressage.com. And read...

"When it comes to awarding marks, we are unable to tell you everything that goes through a judges brain when they are deciding what score to give for each movement. (Well we could, but this blog post would be ten times longer!)." :laugh:
 
I don't think anyone would disagree with this.

At the same time, I think we cut off our nose to spite our face if we ignore (much less ridicule) the view expressed by @LolainJapan in post #26 above. Figure skating is an art because it gives me goosebumps. Goosebumps good, an extra quarter-point in the IJS protocols -- OK, whatever.

What is most interesting to me is that the poster who nexpressed this view of skating is a Kamila Valieva fan -- a huge-tech skater.
My ex gave me goosebumps... he was a piece of art. :party2:
 
Kind of a stretch, right? In American football the most beautifully choreographed play in the world doesn't amount to a hill of beans unless it scores a touchdown. No style points awarded -- hey, is this a sport or a stroll through an art museum?

In figure skating, for good or evil, there are these wretched PCSs that just won't go away.
stretching semantics is something that has been done very well in this thread.. I am just joining the basketweaving gang ;)
 
Blade ice skills and spins are also technical elements of the sport. Both spins and step sequences are leveled and are evaluated both qualitatively and quantitatively.... For instance, and respectively, centering, number of revolutions in a spin. In steps, to get all their levels skaters must, for instance, show constant upper body movement (qualitative) as well as a number of specific turns (quantitative).
And as we know, skating skills are just as subjectively scored these days (and maybe previously, I don't know) and quite a few skaters, as their quad success went up, so did their PCS scores for no real reason except "hey, quads, must be good at everything!" But the minute there is music, interpretation etc involved, performance art is also involved, and someone with spot-on blade control who does it with no emotion, who has no connection to music or audience would be just as dull and painful to watch as someone who 'feels the music' but can't do a decent spin or twizzle to save themselves.

Back to the original article, I am hard-pressed to see what his beef actually is through the haze of fine-sounding words, since the only current skaters he chooses to hold up for artistic applause are in fact being well and truly rewarded for what they do?
 
And as we know, skating skills are just as subjectively scored these days (and maybe previously, I don't know) and quite a few skaters, as their quad success went up, so did their PCS scores for no real reason except "hey, quads, must be good at everything!" But the minute there is music, interpretation etc involved, performance art is also involved, and someone with spot-on blade control who does it with no emotion, who has no connection to music or audience would be just as dull and painful to watch as someone who 'feels the music' but can't do a decent spin or twizzle to save themselves.
Performance art is actually something else :) (since this thread has become a semantic forward discussion)


Performance art is an artwork or art exhibition created through actions executed by the artist or other participants. It may be witnessed live or through documentation, spontaneously developed or written, and is traditionally presented to a public in a fine art context in an interdisciplinary mode.
 
Performance art is actually something else :) (since this thread has become a semantic forward discussion)


Performance art is an artwork or art exhibition created through actions executed by the artist or other participants. It may be witnessed live or through documentation, spontaneously developed or written, and is traditionally presented to a public in a fine art context in an interdisciplinary mode.

I admit, I probably used the term too loosely (and would for the most part rather be hung up by my toenails than watch most of the stuff). But take out the word, the argument remains the same. The appeal of figure skating is complicated, pushed too far on one direction or another it just doesn't work for at least one large part of the audience.

(And I still want to know what the author's actual beef is.)
 
The appeal of figure skating is complicated, pushed too far on one direction or another it just doesn't work for at least one large part of the audience.
Well... I think we can agree on this sentence. IMHO, if figure skating seeks broader audiences, it will have to push in the direction of sport. A while ago, it's vague in my memory so maybe someone can correct me if I am wrong - I was a kid when this was discussed..., ice dance was under scrutiny... TOO. MUCH. DRAMA on the ice... I mean, they had to create a rule so that people would not lie down on the ice because so many couples died on the ice at the end of their routine LOL... The ISU completely revamped it and with the IJS in place as well, it's actually become quite an athletic competition. There are some elements that are definitely perceived as athletic tricks like twizzles and lifts, but also one foot step sequence or dance spins. Why did the ISU make sure ice dance would go more towards the realm of sport? Olympic eligibility. Olympic eligibility means everything for a sport. Everything = two things 1) Funding 2) Public exposure.
Without the olympics, a sport dies. Acrobatic skiing used to be three things : moguls, aerials and ballet. Some athletes even performed the triathlon of acrobatic ski back then... The ballet was beautiful but sort of weird... but when you think of it, they spin, jump, to all sorts of moves that figure skaters do too :) and there is music :) it was a demonstration sport at the Olympics in 1988 and 1992... but then wasn't put on the list of official sports for 1994 and later... IT DIED IN 2000.

 
I think a difference needs to be made about something that is actually subjective, because it depends on your taste, cultural and personal priming etc. and hence cannot be argued with in terms of better or worse, and an object of study which could be assessed in such terms in theory, but it's extremely difficult to decide in praxis. To give a very clear example of the second: in soccer it can be difficult to actually decide whether a ball has fully crossed the line. Even the hawk-eye sometimes is not fully decisive. Nonetheless, this is not a subjective question. I think sometimes people conflate these.
To me that looks like a very important point to first be made when talking about these questions.
I think there are more than two different levels of "subjective" with the examples you give more at the extremes.

1) There is an objective answer which could be precisely determined with the right technology or person-power, but it may not be cost effective to invest in the necessary resources.
Examples: Determining whether a ball has fully crossed a line, or whether a skating jump is fully rotated.

2) Determining the quality of a clearly defined move with clearly defined criteria. E.g., does a jump have "very good height and very good length" or "good take-off and landing" or does a spin have "good speed and/or acceleration during spin" or "good controlled, clear position(s) (inc. height and air/landing position in flying spin)"

For skating examples, definitions of "very good height and very good length" of a jump might vary based on the size and sex of the skater and also based on the type of jump (e.g., loop vs. toe loop). "Good speed" of a spin might depend on the size of the skater and also on the type of spin position.
I think everyone could agree on examples that are "adequate" or "outstanding," but different individuals might draw the line somewhere slightly different between adequate vs. good or between very good vs. outstanding. Or, for that matter, between the lower limit of "adequate" vs. the upper limit of "weak."

This type of subjectivity would primarily apply to GOEs.

Other judged sports where quality is assessed might have similar issues.

3) Similarly, the program component guidelines list the criteria in general, and then separately define the numerical scale between 0.25-0.75 "Extremely poor" and 9.00-9.75 "Excellent" and 10 "Outstanding."

If, e.g., 6.00-6.75 is "Above average" and 7.00-7.75 is "Good," different judges might mentally draw the line between 6.75 and 7.00 in different places in their own minds.

4) There are several criteria for each component. Judges might have somewhat different understandings of specific criteria based on their personal histories both from their own skating careers if applicable, including when and where they trained, in which discipline and to what level, and also any relevant off-ice knowledge they may bring to the process, about kinesiological principles, or various art forms and aesthetic principles, or cultural knowledge and expectations about the source of the chosen music.
And even if all judges had exactly the same understanding of what each criterion covers, different individuals might naturally pay more attention to some aspects of a given component than others.

5) Personal preference.


I don't think we can completely get rid of any of these sources of subjectivity. The component guidelines are written in such a way that personal preference is not supposed to play an official role scoring, but judges are human.

#4 is actually where I think we could have the most interesting conversations about the criteria as written and where/why different individuals might approach them differently.
 
To me, dance is the discipline closest to figure skating. Not just to ice dance, to FS in general, as they share many common features like being performed to music, interpretation of music, using choreography, steps etc. It is also why they both appeal to me personally. Now, dance is one of performing arts, by definition. It is also considered a sport when performed for competition. It is as easy (or confusing) as that.
It also seems they both meet the defining criteria for sport and performing art. "Creative activity performed for audience using mainly human body as the vehicle of expression"? Yes. ""Physical activity performed for health or enjoyment?" Yes. I mean, it is nobody's fault these definitions are so broad they could contain almost anything. Yet that's what they are. FS fits both. Now any limitation to say it fits just one but not the other is just a subjective opinion not rooted in generally accepted definitions. We just need to live with the fact it may be considered - and in fact, it is - both.
 
Performance art is an artwork or art exhibition created through actions executed by the artist or other participants. It may be witnessed live or through documentation, spontaneously developed or written, and is traditionally presented to a public in a fine art context in an interdisciplinary mode.
Actually, I think that some aspects of figure skating match this definition quite well. I would be OK with saying that figure skating is a discipline that combines elements of athletic competition and performance art.
 
To me, dance is the discipline closest to figure skating. Not just to ice dance, to FS in general, as they share many common features like being performed to music, interpretation of music, using choreography, steps etc. It is also why they both appeal to me personally. Now, dance is one of performing arts, by definition. It is also considered a sport when performed for competition. It is as easy (or confusing) as that.
It also seems they both meet the defining criteria for sport and performing art. "Creative activity performed for audience using mainly human body as the vehicle of expression"? Yes. ""Physical activity performed for health or enjoyment?" Yes. I mean, it is nobody's fault these definitions are so broad they could contain almost anything. Yet that's what they are. FS fits both. Now any limitation to say it fits just one but not the other is just a subjective opinion not rooted in generally accepted definitions. We just need to live with the fact it may be considered - and in fact, it is - both.
So why do you think dance is not an Olympic sport while figure skating is ?
 
Actually, I think that some aspects of figure skating match this definition quite well. I would be OK with saying that figure skating is a discipline that combines elements of athletic competition and performance art.
have you ever been to a performance art exhibit? Because figure skating is very far from it. Just saying.
 
To me, dance is the discipline closest to figure skating. Not just to ice dance, to FS in general, as they share many common features like being performed to music, interpretation of music, using choreography, steps etc. It is also why they both appeal to me personally. Now, dance is one of performing arts, by definition. It is also considered a sport when performed for competition. It is as easy (or confusing) as that.
It also seems they both meet the defining criteria for sport and performing art. "Creative activity performed for audience using mainly human body as the vehicle of expression"? Yes. ""Physical activity performed for health or enjoyment?" Yes. I mean, it is nobody's fault these definitions are so broad they could contain almost anything. Yet that's what they are. FS fits both. Now any limitation to say it fits just one but not the other is just a subjective opinion not rooted in generally accepted definitions. We just need to live with the fact it may be considered - and in fact, it is - both.
Agreed.

However, while dance knowledge might give good background for evaluating skating according to the Composition and Performance criteria, dance experts should be careful to recognize that those aspects of skating performance represent only part of what is being evaluated in skating competition, and I would argue that it is the secondary part.

One might say that the primary purpose of a dance performance, certainly outside a competitive context, and also the primary purpose of show skating, is to communicate with audiences as a vehicle of expression. For purposes of performance and communication, technique is a means to that end.

For competitive skating, I would say that the primary purpose is to demonstrate ability to use the body to direct the movement of blades on the ice. Oh and by the way, it is possible and adds value when that is done expressively, entertainingly, communicatively. But that's extra, whereas the techniques of controlling the blades are fundamental.

have you ever been to a performance art exhibit? Because figure skating is very far from it. Just saying.
I suspect that Mathman is using the term "performance art" when he really means "performing art."

But there is this guy:
 
Agreed.

However, while dance knowledge might give good background for evaluating skating according to the Composition and Performance criteria, dance experts should be careful to recognize that those aspects of skating performance represent only part of what is being evaluated in skating competition, and I would argue that it is the secondary part.

One might say that the primary purpose of a dance performance, certainly outside a competitive context, and also the primary purpose of show skating, is to communicate with audiences as a vehicle of expression. For purposes of performance and communication, technique is a means to that end.

For competitive skating, I would say that the primary purpose is to demonstrate ability to use the body to direct the movement of blades on the ice. Oh and by the way, it is possible and adds value when that is done expressively, entertainingly, communicatively. But that's extra, whereas the techniques of controlling the blades are fundamental.


I suspect that Mathman is using the term "performance art" when he really means "performing art."

But there is this guy:
OMG... what did you make watch ? HAHAHAHA :dbana:
 
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