The Case for Handwork: Balancing Art and Sport in Figure Skating | Page 6 | Golden Skate

The Case for Handwork: Balancing Art and Sport in Figure Skating

I based my thoughts on the first document you linked.
I don't know all videos and I'm sure not familiar with the inside knowledge that judges have or what happens in their workshops but I do know some videos which explain a bit more, but apart from skating skills I don't find them very helpful in these regards. I think skating skills are explained more in detail, but especially concerning performance I haven't yet seen very detailed or clear explanations.
It's certainly worth discussing. And getting input from experts in performing arts and evaluation thereof. Some of whom are skating fans who post on these forums.

I don't think we're ever going to get a published document explaining every possible detail that could be covered by each of the written criteria.
 
Do these more detailed explanations help in understanding what they intend by the various short phrases in the official public communication?

Myself, I greatly enjoy reading extra expert explanations and clarifications. I am gererally quite impresserd by how they string a lot of cool-sounding words and phrases together.

It is, however, not clear to me whether I emerge from the experience any the wiser. Sometimes extra words just seem like extra words saying the same thing. I would have to be much more knowledgable about skating to benefit. Even after decades of being an enthusiastic fan, I find that I am still not much past the stage of, "Oh, isn't that pretty!"
 
I studied art history and I don't know what exactly you mean.
Exactly
Most Art Historians agree the concept of what is art changes thru time.
Example: most image reproduction - photography, copper plate etching, acquatint, mezzotint etc - was not accepted as true art by historians for eons and that subject is still hotly debated especially with mass produced digital images at the forefront now. Photojournalism during the Depression Era served as social comment no more but fast forward to the present some - not all - images from that time are consider high art despite social function.
So it is in skating.. it is a hot debate. Likely we have not yet seen the art skating may become but skaters like Jason Brown, Jeremy Abbott, Patrick Chan are setting standards for those to come. Levito, Levandi, Chen, and other carry the torch forward.
 
Myself, I greatly enjoy reading extra expert explanations and clarifications. I am gererally quite impresserd by how they string a lot of cool-sounding words and phrases together.

It is, however, not clear to me whether I emerge from the experience any the wiser. Sometimes extra words just seem like extra words saying the same thing. I would have to be much more knowledgable about skating to benefit. Even after decades of being an enthusiastic fan, I find that I am still not much past the stage of, "Oh, isn't that pretty!"
I am reminded of something that the peerless Anna Russell said many many years ago about the 'Ring der Nibelungen' ... "I know that analyses of 'the Ring' are frequently given over the radio by some great expert for the edification of other great experts, but these are usually so esoteric as to leave the average person as befogged as before... and in fact I think tends to discourage him from going altogether."


Having just done studied 'what is myth and ritual' and currently deep in 'what is history' and ''what is poetry' I know what you mean about the strings of words. If said words were as clear and useful as we like to pretend (sometimes) the rules would ensure that there wouldn't be the wild divergences in marks for the same damn element.

So it is in skating.. it is a hot debate. Likely we have not yet seen the art skating may become but skaters like Jason Brown, Jeremy Abbott, Patrick Chan are setting standards for those to come. Levito, Levandi, Chen, and other carry the torch forward.

Levito? No no no no no, rather less artistic impact than some of the Russian girls and I don't much like theirs except in an immature, pity-it-won't-get-time-to-develop way. And Patrick's forte was skating skills, not artistry.
 
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Really? I believe "artistry" in figure skating would come from mastery of the blade... So in that sense, Patrick's skating skills make him an "artist" of the sport, only matched by very few others.

:slink:

I can agree with that partially, but there is far far more to it for me. And we know we don't agree, and that's fine. He's really above all a brilliant technician (way better than Nathan who is mentioned by this article or many others) but other factors pull him back from creating works of (living) art.
 
I can agree with that partially, but there is far far more to it for me. And we know we don't agree, and that's fine. He's really above all a brilliant technician (way better than Nathan who is mentioned by this article or many others) but other factors pull him back from creating works of (living) art.
Oh well. I feel sorry for your loss... That's all I can say. ,,😹
 
^ Wait, now I am getting confused again. Are you (4everchan) saying that Patrick's skating dIsplays "artistry" in quotation marks, but he is not thereby an artist (no quotation marks)?

Actually, I could get into this new twist of definition. A true figure skating artist is one who presents exceptional blade to ice skills. Or is that a mere virtuoso?
 
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^ Wait, now I am getting confused again. Are you (4everchan) saying that Patrick's skating didplays "artistry" in quotation marks, but he is not thereby an artist (no quotation marks)?

Actually, I could get into this new twist of definition. A true figure skating artist is one who presents exceptional blade to ice skills. Or is that a mere virtuoso?
I was merely replying to a post saying that the best skating skills would not be enough to be called an artistic skater .. if skating skills are not enough, then what is? Facial expression? I haven't changed my position, I do believe figure skating is a sport, when done well, it is beautiful to watch. Not art. Ymmv
 
I am reminded of something that the peerless Anna Russell said many many years ago about the 'Ring der Nibelungen' ... "I know that analyses of 'the Ring' are frequently given over the radio by some great expert for the edification of other great experts, but these are usually so esoteric as to leave the average person as befogged as before... and in fact I think tends to discourage him from going altogether."


Having just done studied 'what is myth and ritual mean' and currently deep in 'what is history' and ''what is poetry' I know what you mean about the strings of words. If said words were as clear and useful as we like to pretend (sometimes) the rules would ensure that there wouldn't be the wild divergences in marks for the same damn element.



Levito? No no no no no, rather less artistic impact than some of the Russian girls and I don't much like theirs except in an immature, pity-it-won't-get-time-to-develop way. And Patrick's forte was skating skills, not artistry.
And there it is…
 
Okay, no.
Figure skating is not art.

Are (some) movies not art? Is ballet not art? Is theatre not art?

Your argument makes no sense if you admit those things are art. Skating is absolutely art, when people set out to create artistic programs, and competitive skating is very much something that can and HAS been art, and is all the better for it. The competitive environment heightens the tension of watching the art, of not knowing exactly what's going to happen. It creates one of most interesting dualities, wherein people are pushing themselves to the physical limit, with a form of movement that can not be replicated anywhere else, while at the same time trying to be as beautiful or entertaining as possible, giving a performance to an audience and to a piece of music, expressing their own being while fighting a battle.

It's fun to talk about, compare, and rank art, and this gives further interest to competitive skating, when it actually has artistic qualities worth talking about. When the scoring system was more understandable and easily calculatable in the past, people loved to give their own scores to a performance they just watched and then compare to the judges and with friends. This would still be possible for at least the PCS if each judges' score was displayed - we are already judging the components out of 10 and those numbers can be averaged together and put up on the scoreboard.

IMHO, if figure skating seeks broader audiences, it will have to push in the direction of sport.

What basis do you have to make this claim? Jump competitions have been tried and never gained popularity. Compulsory figures themselves, an entirely technical endeavor, did not have popularity either. The audience wants a performance.

Men's gymnastics has a tiny fraction the amount of popularity as women's gymnastics, exactly because the Men's discipline has no music and never had a full performance aspect, and has continually moved further and further away from doing what is stylish, creating combinations that have a real flow and visual appeal, in favor of cramming as many difficulties as possible into a routine.
 
Are (some) movies not art? Is ballet not art? Is theatre not art?

Your argument makes no sense if you admit those things are art. Skating is absolutely art, when people set out to create artistic programs, and competitive skating is very much something that can and HAS been art, and is all the better for it. The competitive environment heightens the tension of watching the art, of not knowing exactly what's going to happen. It creates one of most interesting dualities, wherein people are pushing themselves to the physical limit, with a form of movement that can not be replicated anywhere else, while at the same time trying to be as beautiful or entertaining as possible, giving a performance to an audience and to a piece of music, expressing their own being while fighting a battle.

It's fun to talk about, compare, and rank art, and this gives further interest to competitive skating, when it actually has artistic qualities worth talking about. When the scoring system was more understandable and easily calculatable in the past, people loved to give their own scores to a performance they just watched and then compare to the judges and with friends. This would still be possible for at least the PCS if each judges' score was displayed - we are already judging the components out of 10 and those numbers can be averaged together and put up on the scoreboard.



What basis do you have to make this claim? Jump competitions have been tried and never gained popularity. Compulsory figures themselves, an entirely technical endeavor, did not have popularity either. The audience wants a performance.

Men's gymnastics has a tiny fraction the amount of popularity as women's gymnastics, exactly because the Men's discipline has no music and never had a full performance aspect, and has continually moved further and further away from doing what is stylish, creating combinations that have a real flow and visual appeal, in favor of cramming as many difficulties as possible into a routine.

Best reply to this, in my humble opinion, and I wholeheartedly agree with you.
 
Baffled with this whole thread

Art:

"the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power."

What do you people think choreographers are for, huh? What is even going on this thread?

If you have ever felt some emotion by the reason of a skater's clear intention during their performance then you have objectively experienced the defined relationship between the artist and the interpreter.

Waiting for the counter argument: "but its not the primary goal, its just a secondary effect; the primary goal is points!"

Sure. How many figure skaters lay on the ice despite it taking off points? To cool off? What about those who do backflips? Why do they add extra effects and diolalogue in the music? Why do they even care what music they dance to? You think theyre all just soulless robots or something? Its expression. Expression is the absolute universally clear foundation of all arts.

Why do 99% of people even watch figure skating? To meticulously judge lutz technique to the minute detail? Drooling with excitement when they finally get to comment on a 0.1% imperfect "flutz" while eating cheetos in their mums basement? Sorry not everyone is like you.

Skaters skate to create a performance, not to be a number ranked with other numbers.

Also, I am absolutely howling with laughter at the people deeming the artistic perspective of skating as "pretentious". Let's analysize the arguments:

Argument for artistic perspective: "it made me feel sentimental and artistically inspired, so its art"; "the skaters are expressing themselves in performance, so its art": Literal A -> B logical correlation. Zero mental gymnastics, zero superiority complex, zero needlessly advanced terminology or contemplation of convoluted philosophical concepts. Its all self defined and personal, it has zero to do with the forcing of other people's opinions or your own status so in what world could it be labeled as pretentious by anybody ever?

Meanwhile the opposing argument is filled with some reductionist dogma trying its absolute hardest to analyze a subjective and consciously interpreted performance by a sum of its parts ( "muhh but their movements are predetermined for points brah" LOL! ) just to exhude some sense of superior understanding of a subject. Literally the most quintessential possible example of being pretentious in artistic discussion.

Art is EVERYWHERE! ART IS LIFE! Once again all reductionists are SILENCED. 🤫

Fa9UdYbWYAAlNJ6.jpg
 
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Baffled with this whole thread

Art:

"the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power."

What do you people think choreographers are for, huh? What is even going on this thread?

If you have ever felt some emotion by the reason of a skater's clear intention during their performance then you have objectively experienced the defined relationship between the artist and the interpreter.

Waiting for the counter argument: "but its not the primary goal, its just a secondary effect; the primary goal is points!"

Sure. How many figure skaters lay on the ice despite it taking off points? To cool off? What about those who do backflips? Why do they add extra effects and diolalogue in the music? Why do they even care what music they dance to? You think theyre all just soulless robots or something? Its expression. Expression is the absolute universally clear foundation of all arts.

Why do 99% of people even watch figure skating? To meticulously judge lutz technique to the minute detail? Drooling with excitement when they finally get to comment on a 0.1% imperfect "flutz" while eating cheetos in their mums basement? Sorry not everyone is like you.

Skaters skate to create a performance, not to be a number ranked with other numbers.

Also, I am absolutely howling with laughter at the people deeming the artistic perspective of skating as "pretentious". Let's analysize the arguments:

Argument for artistic perspective: "it made me feel sentimental and artistically inspired, so its art"; "the skaters are expressing themselves in performance, so its art": Literal A -> B logical correlation. Zero mental gymnastics, zero superiority complex, zero needlessly advanced terminology or contemplation of convoluted philosophical concepts. Its all self defined and personal, it has zero to do with the forcing of other people's opinions or your own status so in what world could it be labeled as pretentious by anybody ever?

Meanwhile the opposing argument is filled with some reductionist dogma trying its absolute hardest to analyze a subjective and consciously interpreted performance by a sum of its parts ( "muhh but their movements are predetermined for points brah" LOL! ) just to exhude some sense of superior understanding of a subject. Literally the most quintessential possible example of being pretentious in artistic discussion.

Art is EVERYWHERE! ART IS LIFE! Once again all reductionists are SILENCED. 🤫

Fa9UdYbWYAAlNJ6.jpg

Excellent point. THANK YOU.

And welcome to the forum!
 
If you have ever felt some emotion by the reason of a skater's clear intention during their performance then you have objectively experienced the defined relationship between the artist and the interpreter.
Yes.

Waiting for the counter argument: "but its not the primary goal, its just a secondary effect; the primary goal is points!"
Just to clarify, if you're referring to my post earlier.

I wouldn't say that the primary goal of skating is to earn points. I would say that the primary goal of skating competition is to demonstrate mastery of skating techniques, relative to other skaters. At the very highest levels, to determine bragging rights for "best in the world" at least on that occasion.

The points (6.0 style or IJS style) are just a way of keeping track of the evaluation of that mastery.

Many of the criteria for the current Composition and Performance scores relate to using that mastery for purposes that can be artistic -- the highest scorers in those areas will tend to be skaters who make creating art, entertaining and communicating with audiences a priority. In some cases because their personal motivation for competing in the first place is because they love to perform for audiences and competition is just a means to that end; for other skaters, their primary motivation for competing is to win/prove their excellence, and they know that they need to earn high CO and PE scores to do so.

Why do 99% of people even watch figure skating? To meticulously judge lutz technique to the minute detail? Drooling with excitement when they finally get to comment on a 0.1% imperfect "flutz" while eating cheetos in their mums basement? Sorry not everyone is like you.
That is true -- the majority of fans and casual spectators watch skating for the performance aspects and don't care about the technique.

But from the point of view of the participants, competition is about demonstrating mastery.

Because this is a complex sport, there are many areas of mastery that are rewarded
Skaters skate to create a performance, not to be a number ranked with other numbers.
It depends on the skater what their priorities are.

Some care most about performing artistically and don't really like to compete, but they only do so because the way the sport is structured and the way audiences are used to learning about skaters, competition is the best way to reach potential audiences. Once they have enough medals and fame to attract audiences, they may prefer to focus on show skating instead.

Some care most winning. Or about showing off their difficult athletic skills that they're most proud of.

Many skaters are jocks at heart and care most about the athletic feats. Many skaters are shy and struggle to perform outwardly. These skaters may never master the "artistic" aspects of the sport and therefore may never make it to a level where casual audiences who are most interested in the performance aspects will ever see them, or ever pay much attention to them when they do compete at high levels. Or athletically focused skaters who master extreme cutting-edge technical content will attract attention based on those difficult feats.

Most skaters who succeed at the highest levels (i.e., the only skaters that 99% of spectators ever watch) want to win and to show off their skills and to connect with audiences. They wouldn't make it that far if they weren't able to fulfill all the TES criteria and the PCS criteria at least reasonably well, even if some aspects come more naturally to them or are of more interest to them than others.

But 99% of participant skaters will never make it to a level where casual fans even know they exist.

Even among lower-level skaters and lower-ranked seniors, different skaters will have different favorite things about skating and different motivations for competing.

At all levels, skaters work hard to master technical skills (everything that goes into the Skating Skills component as well as the elements) to get to the competitive level where they are, and they deserve to have that hard work recognized and rewarded.

As a low-level adult skater with a performing arts background, yes, I wanted to compete primarily so that I could put together programs with an artistic purpose and try to perform them to the best of my ability at my skill level. But I also wanted to show off some difficulty (and creativity) by including spin variations or footwork turns at the limits of my technical skills at the time.

In one artistic competition where I placed second, a judge told me that he placed me first because, although the winner was more expressive (and had some more/more difficult jumps), he liked the way I "let the blade run." I.e., my biggest strength in that performance was in the area of skating skill. I took that as a compliment to be proud of.
 
Really? I believe "artistry" in figure skating would come from mastery of the blade... So in that sense, Patrick's skating skills make him an "artist" of the sport, only matched by very few others.

You know, in all seriousness, this may point to a way out of our dilemma. One cannot justly demand of the figure skating community that we do what sages throughout the ages have struggled so furiously with, trying to come up with a definition or "art" that touches all bases and satisfies all interested parties.

What if we just say that Patrick Chan was an artist with his blades even as Rembrandt was an artist with his brush. Patrick's canvas is a sheet of ice, Rembrandt's was -- well, a piece of canvas. ;) If we want to eliminate the term"artist" as too controversial, we can substitute: Patrick Chan was a master of his craft, even as Rembrandt was a mater portraitist. Or Patrick was a wizard of the skating blade, even as Rembrandt was a wizard with a paint brush in his hand..

That way we won't have to address provocative and silly examples like, "the art of making friends," etc., while at the same time we push into the backgraound the totally subjective part about: "It's not art unless it stirs the emotions." What stirs my pot may not stir yours. Especially when it comes to sports.

That still leaves ample opportunity for arguments along the lines of, "You call Patrick Chan a master of blade-craft? Hah! -- he doesn;t hold a candle to the magnificent Yuzuru Hanyu !!!"
 
Yes.


Just to clarify, if you're referring to my post earlier.

I wouldn't say that the primary goal of skating is to earn points. I would say that the primary goal of skating competition is to demonstrate mastery of skating techniques, relative to other skaters. At the very highest levels, to determine bragging rights for "best in the world" at least on that occasion.

The points (6.0 style or IJS style) are just a way of keeping track of the evaluation of that mastery.

Many of the criteria for the current Composition and Performance scores relate to using that mastery for purposes that can be artistic -- the highest scorers in those areas will tend to be skaters who make creating art, entertaining and communicating with audiences a priority. In some cases because their personal motivation for competing in the first place is because they love to perform for audiences and competition is just a means to that end; for other skaters, their primary motivation for competing is to win/prove their excellence, and they know that they need to earn high CO and PE scores to do so.


That is true -- the majority of fans and casual spectators watch skating for the performance aspects and don't care about the technique.

But from the point of view of the participants, competition is about demonstrating mastery.

Because this is a complex sport, there are many areas of mastery that are rewarded

It depends on the skater what their priorities are.

Some care most about performing artistically and don't really like to compete, but they only do so because the way the sport is structured and the way audiences are used to learning about skaters, competition is the best way to reach potential audiences. Once they have enough medals and fame to attract audiences, they may prefer to focus on show skating instead.

Some care most winning. Or about showing off their difficult athletic skills that they're most proud of.

Many skaters are jocks at heart and care most about the athletic feats. Many skaters are shy and struggle to perform outwardly. These skaters may never master the "artistic" aspects of the sport and therefore may never make it to a level where casual audiences who are most interested in the performance aspects will ever see them, or ever pay much attention to them when they do compete at high levels. Or athletically focused skaters who master extreme cutting-edge technical content will attract attention based on those difficult feats.

Most skaters who succeed at the highest levels (i.e., the only skaters that 99% of spectators ever watch) want to win and to show off their skills and to connect with audiences. They wouldn't make it that far if they weren't able to fulfill all the TES criteria and the PCS criteria at least reasonably well, even if some aspects come more naturally to them or are of more interest to them than others.

But 99% of participant skaters will never make it to a level where casual fans even know they exist.

Even among lower-level skaters and lower-ranked seniors, different skaters will have different favorite things about skating and different motivations for competing.

At all levels, skaters work hard to master technical skills (everything that goes into the Skating Skills component as well as the elements) to get to the competitive level where they are, and they deserve to have that hard work recognized and rewarded.

As a low-level adult skater with a performing arts background, yes, I wanted to compete primarily so that I could put together programs with an artistic purpose and try to perform them to the best of my ability at my skill level. But I also wanted to show off some difficulty (and creativity) by including spin variations or footwork turns at the limits of my technical skills at the time.

In one artistic competition where I placed second, a judge told me that he placed me first because, although the winner was more expressive (and had some more/more difficult jumps), he liked the way I "let the blade run." I.e., my biggest strength in that performance was in the area of skating skill. I took that as a compliment to be proud of.
Yes I agree that different skaters have different intentions. I'm not saying that all figure skaters are artists, I'm saying that figure skating is not any less of an art than anything else as others were attempting to claim early in this thread (literally making unambiguous statements such as "figure skating is NOT an art"). This is the idea which I have quarrell with.

My argument wasnt trying to objectively prove all figure skating is art. Not even all painting or music is art, paintings and music can also be created for purposes outside the traditional understanding of what is "art"; i.e. political commentary, pure technical prowess or whatever else

The point is, you cannot assert that figure skating is not an art - this assertion is fully false.
 
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