The Case for Handwork: Balancing Art and Sport in Figure Skating

[Mathman]

I said fine art didn't I ? Have a look at fine art not at basketweaving art

I feel like we have just moved the goal posts. Wikipedia asserts that "Historically, the five main fine arts were painting, sculpture, architecture, music, and poetry."

Obviously if we define "fine art" as painting, sculpture, architecture, music and poetry, then only painting. scupture, architecture, music and poetry are fine arts.

Do we need a new thread, "Is figure skating one of the five Fine Arts"?

(Yes, because it is poetry in motion, plus some of the burly male pairs skaters are built up like architectural bulwarks.)

 

[4everchan]

I feel like we have just moved the goal posts. Wikipedia asserts that "Historically, the five main fine arts were painting, sculpture, architecture, music, and poetry."

Obviously if we define "fine art" as painting, sculpture, architecture, music and poetry, then only painting. scupture, architecture, music and poetry are fine arts.

Do we need a new thread, "Is figure skating one of the five Fine Arts"?

(Yes, because it is poetry in motion, plus some of the burly male pairs skaters are built up like architectural bulwarks.)

My point is that if adding figure skating in the realm of the "arts" we need to look at characteristics of what were the original fine arts. Cinema and photography were added based on that. Figure skating... I cannot see it myself. YMMV and I am out to watching skating which is more important than this thread If we cannot agree about the "artistic" status of figure skating, there is no way we can agree on balancing "art and sport" in figure skating...

 

[Mathman]

Someone in the back row cannot see the actor’s smile, but they know the actor is smiling. A skater who is truly artistic can project their feelings to the back row, just like an actor. It is rarer in skating, true. But guess which skater is a master at it?

That is so true. Jason seems like he is smiling all the time, even when he isn't. Other skaters, especially some American ladies, have been criticised because they really do smile all the time, for no particular reason, and it mars the artistic effect.

 

[icewhite]

I think some people in this thread (like myself) see art the way it is described historically (fine art), others see art as anything creative and expressive. There is a very wide range between both. That's all I guess.

For me invention, creation of something new, and even more so the will to do so, the mindset, are extremely relevant. I don't consider things that are purely made for decoration or entertainment art. I wouldn't call musicals art. I wouldn't call most pop songs art. It doesn't depend much on the final medium, but much more on the mindset, purpose and whether someone is willing and able to cross borders and limits. I'm a writer of fiction, but I wouldn't call my products art, though I definitely need to be creative and also create some beautiful moments.

Anyway, since, yeah, the discussion is pretty fruitless at this point, I will try to adress the article and the problem of art and sports and judging more specifically in my next post which might take me a while to write.

 

[el henry]

That is so true. Jason seems like he is smiling all the time, even when he isn't. Other skaters, especially some American ladies, have been criticised because they really do smile all the time, for no particular reason, and it mars the artistic effect.

That is true, particularly in his personal life.

But Jason projects the feeling of the music to the back row, not just smiling. With Schindler's List, he projects sorrow to the back row. With Sinnerman, well, sinning, to the back row.

Love him or hate him, I can't believe that anyone would deny that the man can project.

 

[4everchan]

For me invention, creation of something new, and even more so the will to do so, the mindset, are extremely relevant. I don't consider things that are purely made for decoration or entertainment art. I wouldn't call musicals art. I wouldn't call most pop songs art. It doesn't depend much on the final medium, but much more on the mindset, purpose and whether someone is willing and able to cross borders and limits. I'm a writer of fiction, but I wouldn't call my products art, though I definitely need to be creative and also create some beautiful moments.

Anyway, since, yeah, the discussion is pretty fruitless at this point, I will try to adress the article and the problem of art and sports and judging more specifically in my next post which might take me a while to write.

I am with you on this. The intent, the mindset are essential for me.

 

[Mathman]

It doesn't depend much on the final medium, but much more on the mindset, purpose and whether someone is willing and able to cross borders and limits.

And yet some art critics (and many literary critcs especially) have argued just the opposite. The "Intentional Fallcay." It doesn't matter at all what the author or artist "intended" to do. The only thing that counts is the work itself.

 

[4everchan]

And yet some art critics (and many literary critcs especially) have argued just the opposite. The "Intentional Fallcay." It doesn't matter at all what the author or artist "intended" to do. The only thing that counts is the work itself.

So, if there was no intention to create art, but the final product is so good that some deem it is art, do you call this a coincidence ? Chance? A fluke? And if the "creator" never manages again to reproduce such success intentionally or not, is that person an artist? Just curious here.

 

[icewhite]

So, I'll try to express my points as clear as possible. Unfortunately I struggle with more complex English, so I hope this will be readable.

All this talk about "is figure skating art?" seems very theoretical, and we could agree to disagree. But my issue with the text this thread was started for (and I think this is not an opinion of just one person but a common one) is this:

"I think that figure skating, because it is a performance sport you have to have subjective judging. You can not pretend that a number can judge a performance."
"From my experience the only way to evaluate art is in one simple question… HOW DID IT MAKE YOU FEEL?"

This is a call for more subjective judging. A call for more "how did it make you feel?"
And that, in my opinion, is totally the wrong way. From my point of view we still have too much! subjective judging. We don't need more of that in figure skating, but less.
The author argues that people who are knowledgeable and "sophisticated" will know how to judge art - but I don't think that's really true. Sure, there are certain possibilities to rate the amount of creativity and invention, whether an artistic concept is whole or messed up and undecided, but in the end art really cannot be judged - it is, as he says, subjective, yes. The results of a sports competition should not be based on subjective opinions!!!
And I don't think it's necessary.

Maybe to discuss more how the judging system should be changed it's necessary to talk about which programs are considered wrong or not good enough or problematic - if we want to change the judging system, which concrete outcome regarding the existing programs do people wish for? Which are the programs that we don't see anymore? Which are the programs we don't want to see anymore?
It's easy to point at 10 programs from the past that were absolutely breathtaking "see, that's what figure skating was like" and then point at a very bland program of today "see, that's what this scoring system and mindset brings us today", and completely forget that Elvis Stojko became a 3 time world champion, ignore that Hanyu has been very dedicated to producing programs that are "whole" in every aspect.

The problem of young girls with non-adult bodies jumping quad after quad is mostly a problem of minors' bodies being exploited for the fast gain, and the new age rules are supposed to adress this. Apart from this advantage that more or less pre-puberty girls have adult women will usually have more refinement and experience in other areas, so I don't see much of a problem of balancing jumps and everything else.
The problem of prerotations and wrong or sloppy technique has to be addressed through other means.

 

[el henry]

I just found this interview with Rohene Ward while I was looking for another one. He talks about the interplay of artistry and athleticism. He is being interviewed, I think by young skaters from a skating club, on Zoom.



I was looking for the one where he said "I tell my skaters give the audience something they can feel. What they will remember is how you make them feel". And he is talking about competitions. I'll keep looking for that interview.

He comes out and says that he thinks the performance and artist part of the sport should be emphasized, but he also says you cannot be an artist if you don't have technique. It may be important to remember that when he was competing, Rohene was a big powerful jumper. He loved to jump. He just had no head whatsoever for completion.

He also has comments about skaters at the Olympics, that are, well, he doesn't hold back. .

 

[4everchan]

I just found this interview with Rohene Ward while I was looking for another one. He talks about the interplay of artistry and athleticism. He is being interviewed, I think by young skaters from a skating club, on Zoom.



I was looking for the one where he said "I tell my skaters give the audience something they can feel. What they will remember is how you make them feel". And he is talking about competitions. I'll keep looking for that interview.

He comes out and says that he thinks the performance and artist part of the sport should be emphasized, but he also says you cannot be an artist if you don't have technique. It may be important to remember that when he was competing, Rohene was a big powerful jumper. He loved to jump. He just had no head whatsoever for completion. He

He also has comments about skaters at the Olympics, that are, well, he doesn't hold back. .

too busy watching skating to watch the video but i will chime in on two things said here

Feeling : art doesn't always give emotions to its viewers and it's not less art because of that. Think about a painting or a sculpture. It can leave you completely indifferent. So I have an issue with equating said goosebumps to art.

Art cannot come without technique. I agree with that 100% but I don't see technique as jumps. I see technique everywhere. Even the way to move one's arm relies on proper technique, let alone edge work, and then of course "the elements"

 

[Mathman]

So, if there was no intention to create art, but the final product is so good that some deem it is art, do you call this a coincidence ? Chance? A fluke? And if the "creator" never manages again to reproduce such success intentionally or not, is that person an artist? Just curious here.

Well, I think that Sebastian Bach was motived to write a mass or cantata every Sunnday in very substantial part because he wanted to keep his job as Kapellmeister. I think that Shakespeare wrote plays for the low art (as it was regarded in those days) of theater without consciously setting about to create the greatest dramatic poetry of all time (sorry, Sophocles). I think that Renaissance portraitist painted porttraits in part because they were commissioned to do so by rich people who wanted their portraits painted.

That these truned out to be timeless works of art, well, no, that's not "coincidence"; rather, it is genius.

 

[4everchan]

Well, I think that Sebastian Bach was motived to write a mass or cantata every Sunnday in very substantial part because he wanted to keep his job as Kapellmeister. I think that Shakespeare wrote plays for the low art (as it was regarded in those days) of theater without consciously setting about to create the greatest dramatic poetry of all time (sorry, Sophocles). I think that Renaissance portraitist painted porttraits in part because they were commissioned to do so by rich people who wanted their portraits painted.

That these truned out to be timeless works of art, well, no, that's not "coincidence"; rather, it is genius.

This is a slippery slope as professional artists get obviously paid for their work... The post you wrote earlier imply a wide range of situations that have nothing to do with Bach or Rembrandt.

 

[Mathman]

All this talk about "is figure skating art?" seems very theoretical, and we could agree to disagree. But my issue with the text this thread was started for (and I think this is not an opinion of just one person but a common one) is this:

"I think that figure skating, because it is a performance sport you have to have subjective judging. You can not pretend that a number can judge a performance."
"From my experience the only way to evaluate art is in one simple question… HOW DID IT MAKE YOU FEEL?"

I agree completely with this criticism of the view of the original blogger. "How it makes you fell" has no place in the determination of who wins a sporting event.

More broadly, "how it makes you feel is far, far, far, from being the "only way to evaluate art." (IMHO of course. )

 

[yesterday]

"How it makes you fell"

That acutally has a lot to do with FS
(scnr )

 

[Mathman]

This is a slippery slope as professional artists get obviously paid for their work... The post you wrote earlier imply a wide range of situations that have nothing to do with Bach or Rembrandt.

My point was that "intent" cannot be the only criterion on which the value of a work of art is judged. A person could set out with deliberate intent to invent a more serviceable, or a more esthetically pleasing, basket weaving technique, But we do not consult the craftsman's intent or state of mind when we evaluate the resulting product. -- it is serviceab;e or pleasing on its own merit.

 

[4everchan]

My point was that "intent" cannot be the only criterion on which the value of a work of art is judged. A person could set out with deliberate intent to invent a more serviceable, or a more esthetically pleasing, basket weaving technique, But we do not consult the craftsman's intent or state of mind when we evaluate the resulting product. -- it is serviceab;e or pleasing on its own merit.

but i don't think intent was ever the only factor for consideration.

 

[Mathman]

scnr

I learned a new word!

 

[TallyT]

{Not accepting that being one of the 'fine arts' is all or even most of what counts, myself... as a lover of the decorative arts. I would rather insist that any definition of 'artistic' must include netsukes, the Lady with the Unicorn, Faberge, Lalique, the Book of Kells and the Silver Swan automaton or be totally meaningless. But maybe that's just me muttering in the back here.}

Ahem. Back to figure skating. I don't think the writer of the original article or any poster (or most fans) would categorise it as 'fine art' even if we do allow dance and music (which are aligned, whether some approve or no) even of lower quality into that rarefied class. But just a few particularly brilliant and acclaimed programs have definitely been called works of art; some skating costumes certainly meet high decorative arts levels; Gucci devoted a whole new art gallery to a photo exhibition of Yuzu including gorgeously caught athletic poses; On Ice Perspectives has created some videos (the latest by Lambiel and Cizeron) where the sport side is aligned to the beautifully aesthetic. So yes, figure skating can be artistic even if not high or 'fine' art (it can also be totally inartistic but then so is a lot of painting, sculpture and music). Despite what Chen said earlier in his career he is now held up by this particular writer at least as an exemplar and as I mentioned earlier, neither he, nor PC (nor Jason nowadays) have exactly been marked down for it.

If for you (generic you, no one in particular) the main purpose of the sport is skating skills and they are being downgraded/neglected, it isn't the artistry component that's to blame for that, is it? It's the other 'sport' element, the jumps.

 

[4everchan]

Leaving the terminology alone for one sec.

To achieve a better balance : The ISU had a good idea bringing in the choreo sequence. It does add to programs when it is well done. However, in order to do so, they nixed the second step sequence in the LP. If they had nixed one jumping pass instead, we would have seen more intricate skating and less preparation into jumps. It's a very simple fix in my humble opinion.