Why do so few skaters get level 4 on step sequences (except for spirals)?

[Bennett]

Why do so few skaters get level 4 on step sequences (except for spirals)?

I feel that only few skaters get level 4 on step sequences, except for spiral sequences. Why is that?

Do you think that Jeff, Daisuke, Evan, and Tomas are capable of getting level 4s consistently next season???

 

[daisies]

Because it's just so much easier to get L4 on spirals. In order to get L4 on steps, you need all four of these features:

1) Variety (complexity for Level 4) of turns and steps throughout (compulsory)*
2) Rotations (turns, steps) in either direction (left and right) with full body rotation covering at least 1/3 of the pattern in total for each rotational direction)
3) Modest (full for Level 4) use of upper body movement**
4) Quick changes of rotational direction executed by rockers and/or counters, twizzles and/or quick rotational toe steps immediately following each other

* In order to get feature 1 for a Level 4, you have to do five types of turns and three types of steps and you have to do each turn twice -- once in each direction. (If you are not going for Level 4, you only need to do four types of turns [each performed twice] and two types of steps ... I say "only," but it's still really hard, because they won't give you the turn if it's done on a flat -- that's mostly why it's so hard to get any levels on step sequences.)

** In order to get feature 3 for a level 4, you have to have full upper body movement, and that means head, arms and torso.

So, if you fulfill feature No. 1 with five types of turns in both directions and three types of steps, but you only have modest upper body movement, you can't get a level 4; similarly, if you have full upper body movement but only have four types of turns/two types of steps, you can't get a level 4. You have to have *both*, on top of the other two features.

Now compare that to the features for spiral sequences:

1) 3 spiral pos. with change of foot (mandatory for SP), forward & backward, inside & outside
2) 1 difficult variation of position
3) Second difficult variation on a different foot than the first one
4) Change of edge in a spiral (3 seconds hold before and after the change)
5) Unsupported change of free leg position or direction of skating maintaining the spiral (3 seconds hold before and after the change)
6) Free leg in a total split position, one or both arms hold possible

Feature No. 1 is a total joke. I mean, please. All you have to do to get that is do a forward outside spiral, a forward inside spiral and a back outside spiral. That's forward and backward, inside & outside.

Feature No. 2 -- easy for those who can pull their leg over their head.

Feature No. 3 -- ditto feature No. 2!

Feature No. 4 -- everyone's doing change of edge these days; it's not *that* hard.

OK, so, right there, if you do those four things, it's a Level 4. Not to mention that there are still two more features you could use if you can't do one of the first four!

The step sequence features are, IMO, way too limited and way too stringent. Something should be done about it.

 

[merrybari]

Yipes
Thanks for the detailed description! Just trying to read it had my head spinning. Imagine trying to DO it - so complicated it's a wonder any of them figure it out.

 

[merrybari]

I feel that only few skaters get level 4 on step sequences, except for spiral sequences. Why is that?

Do you think that Jeff, Daisuke, Evan, and Tomas are capable of getting level 4s consistently next season???

I think Evan and Daisuke are very capable of doing so. IMO Evan is one of the most consistent skaters out there across the board, and he has achieved level 4 footwork at least twice this past season. His footwork is outstanding and electrifying!

Not sure about Jeff and/or Tomas as neither one have demonstrated consistency consistently on programs as a whole so depends on what they focus on in training.

 

[silver.blades]

Jeff got a L4 on his footwork at worlds. Footwork is one thing he is consistant at.

 

[blue dog]

No offense to the ISU, but the requirements for feature 3 for a level 4 step sequence makes the step sequence sound ugly.

 

[mskater93]

that's why so many skaters look like they are trying balance themselves with their arms/or are having a seizure - to meet the requirements of the 3rd feature.

 

[blue dog]

that's why so many skaters look like they are trying balance themselves with their arms/or are having a seizure - to meet the requirements of the 3rd feature.

LoL It also seems strange when skaters do the fast footwork to the slow section. It's like they're not hearing the music.

 

[Bennett]

Daisies, thank you so very much! I appreciate your taking time to share your knowledge and explain so much in detail. That's very kind of you.

Do you think that top skaters aim at getting level 4 but often cannot? Or do they not intend to get level 4 because it's so difficult? I remember Johnny saying that it's not worth it beause of the difficulty.

I feel that every top skater is getting almost the same point on their steps because everyone gets level 3. But despite that they would have some disparities in their actual techniques, the difference that appears in the point is so small because the way GOEs are reflected on the score is modest in level 3 elements.

Would you think that the steps should be rewarded more? Or the requirements for level 4 should be less strict?

Jeff got a L4 on his footwork at worlds. Footwork is one thing he is consistant at.

It looks like he got level 3 on all of his footworks at worlds although he did get one level 4 in his SP at 4CC. I agree that he is brilliant in steps. I love his step sequences. They make the highlight of the program. The beautiful, smooth flow in his SP is so gorgeous. The sharp steps in LP are also breath-taking.
I also absolutely love Tomas's skating skills. His edges are so amazing. I may like his skating even more than Takahashi who is famous for it.
I also think that Lambiel has amazing steps.

It would be cool if Jeff, Tomas, Lambiel, Takahashi, and Tomas consistently get level 4.

--------------
Here, I tried to calculate how much more points a skater could earn using Jeff at 4CC as an example.

Jeff got level 3 for his straightline steps in SP at 4CC. With three judges giving +1 and nine judges giving +2, the total point resulted in 4.03.
But he got level 4 on his circular steps. Five judges gave him 1, four judges gave him +2, three judges gave him +3, and one judge gave him 0. This resulted in 5.11.
Although the GOEs were higher for straightline steps, circular steps scored one point higher, a sizable difference.
Jeff also got level 3 on his straightline steps and circular steps in his LP at 4CC. Both resulted in 3.74 points (average GOEs that judges gave him was 1.16 (+0.64 on the score)). The difference from his SP level 4 circular steps is 1.37.

So suppose he gets the level 4 on his both steps in SP and LP instead of getting level 3 on them, I've estimated that he would score 4.8 higher.

Therefore, if a male skater gets level 4 on all of his steps in both SP and LP, then he could overcome the difference that one quad could make. I feel that for those who are really good at steps, this could be less risky than the quad attempt that could often result in extremely low points or even a negative value.

 

[daisies]

Daisies, thank you so very much! I appreciate your taking time to share your knowledge and explain so much in detail. That's very kind of you.

You're welcome!

Do you think that top skaters aim at getting level 4 but often cannot? Or do they not intend to get level 4 because it's so difficult? I remember Johnny saying that it's not worth it beause of the difficulty.

That's a good question. In one of the conference calls that USFS held with coaches and that is detailed on the USFS site under judging systems, the technical panelist on the call recommended to coaches to go for a level 3 and a positive GOE rather than try to get a level 4 and risk not getting it and also perhaps getting a negative GOE, so that could be the strategy of some of these skaters.

Would you think that the steps should be rewarded more? Or the requirements for level 4 should be less strict?

The latter. It's just too hard to get a level 4, especially in comparison to spirals. I'm not saying make it easy, I'm just saying make it comparable. And if that means leaving the steps requirements as they are and making the spiral requirements harder, so be it. Especially given it takes some skaters a good 20-30 seconds of a program to do a decent step sequence!

 

[Bennett]

The latter. It's just too hard to get a level 4, especially in comparison to spirals. I'm not saying make it easy, I'm just saying make it comparable. And if that means leaving the steps requirements as they are and making the spiral requirements harder, so be it. Especially given it takes some skaters a good 20-30 seconds of a program to do a decent step sequence!

Yeah, I know! Steps take really a long time and are often the highlight of the program whereas the jump takes only a second. Even the lay audience can tell the difference if steps are excuted very well. But somehow everyone scores all the same and they get mere 4 points or even less. That's a shame. I would love to see wonderfully excuted steps scoring higher.

 

[Buttercup]

It looks like he got level 3 on all of his footworks at worlds although he did get one level 4 in his SP at 4CC.
I also absolutely love Tomas's skating skills. His edges are so amazing. I may like his skating even more than Takahashi who is famous for it.

Steps take really a long time and are often the highlight of the program whereas the jump takes only a second. Even the lay audience can tell the difference if steps are excuted very well. But somehow everyone scores all the same and they get mere 4 points or even less. That's a shame. I would love to see wonderfully excuted steps scoring higher.

I added together two separate posts... Jeff did get all L3s at worlds; in fact, Joubert's GOEs for the straight line in the LP were a shade higher (Buttle fans, I await your outrage ). I prefer Tomas to Takahashi, too. I really didn't like the steps he did as techno-swan; they seemed disjointed to me, with lots of energy but no flow. I can't claim great knowledge of hip-hop dancing, but I felt it could have been more pleasing to the eye. I know I'm in the minority here.

I think there needs to be some rethinking about steps under CoP. I've made my dislike for the excessive upper body movement known in the past, and I'd really like it if they could find a way to emphasize the footwork and stop skaters from randomly flailing their arms about (not everyone does, but too many are into it). I think Yagudin once said, following his Winter program, that the jumps are always the same and step sequences is where he can be original. I hope they can find a better way to separate the original and difficult from the "going through the motions".

 

[Meli_Huber]

I can´t remember that Lady become a Level 4 fot foot step in a ISU Competition.

Somebody of you know one lady, who became a level 4 for her steps???

 

[gkelly]

I can´t remember that Lady become a Level 4 fot foot step in a ISU Competition.

Somebody of you know one lady, who became a level 4 for her steps???

Kostner got level 4 for her steps in the long program at NHK this season:
http://www.isufs.org/results/gpjpn07/gpjpn07_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

 

[Bennett]

Mao also got a level four on her SP straightline steps in the US vs. Japan team event last fall. But this is not an official ISU event.

This season, I believe that her steps deserved better scores. But the system didn't allow them to be rewarded.

-At her previous Worlds back in 2007, she got level 3 in both SP and LP and her GOE were like 0.5 and 0.64.

-At this 2008 Worlds, she got level 3 in both SP and LP and her GOE were 0.79 and 0.93.

Despite her marked improvement and all the praises about her new steps, she is earning merely 0.6 points more in total. That's a shame.

--------------------------------

I think that the overall problems are
1) the relatively low values assigned to the steps,
2) few level 4s ratified, and
3) the relatively little reflection of GOE on the actual score for level-2 and level-3 steps.

That is, whatever GOEs the judges give you, the steps won't make a much difference
1) because the base values for steps are low in the first place,
2) because you barely get level 4 and
3) because your plus GOEs will be divided by 2 if you get level 1 to 3.

1) I would like to see greater base values for steps in general. The base value for level 3 is only 3.1 and level 4 is merely 3.4. They are too low.

2) less strict level 4 conditions would be nice.

3) It would be also nice to see more proportionate reflection of plus GOE on the actual score. if they reflect 25% of GOE on level 1, 50% of GOE on level 2, 75% of GOE on level 3, and the full value of GOE on level 4, you would see much more variability in score among the senior men and ladies. Then I think that the sport would become more interesting. The audience gets frustrated when things are not rewarded despite that they could tell the differences.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Can anyone explain the Levels? so that lazy people like me do not have to go to the ISU website and hunt for them.

What exactly is the difference between a Level 1, 2, 3, and 4 in terms of points?

It seems to me the Techn Asst can have a ball with 4 choices.

Joe

 

[daisies]

Can anyone explain the Levels? so that lazy people like me do not have to go to the ISU website and hunt for them.

What exactly is the difference between a Level 1, 2, 3, and 4 in terms of points?

Level 1: 1.8
Level 2: 2.3
Level 3: 3.1
Level 4: 3.4

These are the base values and apply to straight line step, circular step, serpentine step and spiral sequences.

 

[silver.blades]

They need to change the base values, and they shouldn't all be worth the same value. A serpentine/circular step sequence is harder than a straight line and should be worth more points.

 

[daisies]

They need to change the base values, and they shouldn't all be worth the same value. A serpentine/circular step sequence is harder than a straight line and should be worth more points.

I agree that a serpentine is harder, only because a true serpentine would take forever to complete. I don't agree a circular is harder than a straight line ... no one does a true circle or straight line anyway! Still, a judge should use the GOEs to reward a skater who does a circular step in his/her "opposite" direction. That is always something I looked for when judging under 6.0 as well.

 

[Kinga]

No offense to the ISU, but the requirements for feature 3 for a level 4 step sequence makes the step sequence sound ugly.

Lol! Morevoer, how are they able to check whether the whole sequence fit into ALL these crazy parameters, given how little time they have to score all the other elements. That is insane!!!