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The UpFront Loading

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Jul 11, 2003
I'm not at all a fan of watching even very good skaters ignore the first minute of a program to do crossovers and knock off at least 3 high level jumps and then go into some sort of sitsspin, before they begin to skate and skate to the music.

Do you think there should be a penalty? It's not in accordandance with the Art of Figure Skating or the PCS scores for a balanced program. Is it?

Joe
 
I've no problem with skaters concentrating on jumps in the first minute. I think the better ones do manage to pay attention to the music (except when they are setting up the jumps), and I'd rather see front-loaded programs than splatfests.

I actually think the CoP approach of rewarding second-half jump elements in the LP with an extra base value is a good one - and you do see many skaters leaving jumps & combinations for the end.
 
Joe, weren't you the one who did not want to apply more restrictions to the skaters? :)
I think it is normal that they try to perform the harderst jumps in the beginning, both for physical and mental point of view. I don't find it distracting, at least in most cases.
 
I don't see why skaters can't edit their music so that crossover, crossover, crossover, QUAD!!!! does fit the music. Something that builds without much subtlety to a big crescendo.

Actually, as Buttercup brings up, the "two-minute warning" thing has forced skaters to front-load twice.

You do four big jumps at the beginning, skate around for a while until enough time has passed, then front-load your next three jumps at the beginning of the second half to pick up the bonus (saving a lone double Axel for the end of the program to impress the judges with your stamina.)

Very few skaters seem capable of using the jumps as highlight elements in their choreography. I guess quads and triple Axels are just so hard that you can't allow yourself to be distracted by all that music playing in the background.
 
You do four big jumps at the beginning, skate around for a while until enough time has passed, then front-load your next three jumps ...

This whole post explains why I ended up loving Yuna's exhibition program at Worlds, but not her LP. ;-)
 
It is annoying, terribly when it is very obvious and even worse when the jumps are telegraphed. I would impose mandatory deductions for choreography in such cases.

I also think that value should be added for jumps in the second half of the program, and even more for jumps in the last minute of the program, even more in the last 30 seconds.

Some big fat juicy bonus that cannot be ignored would probably solve the situation.
 
Actually, as Buttercup brings up, the "two-minute warning" thing has forced skaters to front-load twice.

You do four big jumps at the beginning, skate around for a while until enough time has passed, then front-load your next three jumps at the beginning of the second half to pick up the bonus (saving a lone double Axel for the end of the program to impress the judges with your stamina.)

All the programs last season choreographed by Morozov fit into this exact category, except that his skaters don't even save up the last 2A! :biggrin: I truly admired Takahashi's hip-hop Swan Lake and enjoyed Adam Rippon's techno take on Bach, but there is no sense in judges giving out 6s and 7s for choreography on their free programs. Romeo&Juliet, Moonlight Sonata and Carmen were all the same for me - front-loaded jumps, steps with frantic arm-flailing and zero connection to music.
 
Joe, weren't you the one who did not want to apply more restrictions to the skaters? :)
I think it is normal that they try to perform the harderst jumps in the beginning, both for physical and mental point of view. I don't find it distracting, at least in most cases.
Yes, I was and am the one who wants less restrictions for skaters, and still do as long as I see them skate to the music. I am also for getting rid of the music if it is secondary to jumps.

It's not only normal to perform the hardest jumps in the beginning, it is done by 90 per cent of the skaters.; and it makes the sport look so calculated that the music is unnecessary. at least they should use drum rolls, the jumps can stand on their own and not need music which no onr uses anyway. It is a Sport first and if we cut out the need for choreography and transitions into jumps, we could forget about the so called artistry.

It is not distracting to see front load jumps. It is obvious, and not musical.

Joe
 
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All the programs last season choreographed by Morozov fit into this exact category, except that his skaters don't even save up the last 2A! :biggrin:

Under the current rules, there's a good reason for not saving a 2A for the last jump in a program if it's the only axel in the program. If there are two double axels planned, or at least one triple in addition, then it's not a problem, but for ladies, who only get 7 jump passes, and who may want to include at least six triples and who may not do triple-triples, it is an issue.
Some sort of axel is required, so it's important to get one in during the first seven jump passes even if an earlier flawed attempt at a combination or sequence ends up getting split into two separate jump passes.

mathman said:
Very few skaters seem capable of using the jumps as highlight elements in their choreography. I guess quads and triple Axels are just so hard that you can't allow yourself to be distracted by all that music playing in the background.

This has always been true of almost all skaters ever since it became the norm to do almost all the jumps as triples, and later including triple axels, quads, and triple-triple (or harder) combination. Performing those feats musically is just a lot more difficult than doing so with double jumps. So is pulling them off on tired legs. Admire the few who can as the exceptional athlete-artists that they are.
 
^ What is the penalty for not doing an Axel?

Suppose your combo or sequence is ruled as two separate jumps, your last planned jump (lady) is a double Axel and your next-to-last is a triple Salchow. Do you lose credit for the Salchow, too, since it must be scored as an Axel?

About music, my thought was along these lines. Since, indeed, it is practiclly impossible for most skaters to attend to musical nuance while they are trying to land a quad, couldn't they choose music for that section that went along with what they are doing?

In other words, if you can't skate to the music, adapt the music to the skating.
 
^ What is the penalty for not doing an Axel?

It's off topic, but I'd like to go further on that question.

What is the penalty for not doing a required element ? (SP/LP)

e.g. Mao Asada's SP ate GPF. She didn't do the single triple, and it didn't look like they gave her any deuctions (of course, she didn't get the score for it)
 
Bonus not penalty

I'd like the scoring system to continue along the lines of bonus, not penalty. They already have a bonus for jumps in the second half. They have a sort of bonus for jumps in the last seconds - because right after those last seconds, the judges have to fill out PCS scores and that last impression will surely affect those.

I'd also like to see a method for the federations to ask the ISU to challenge scoring and for the ISU to be able to make the judge answerable to it. If the judge gives the same choereography PCS score to two programs - one with choreography and one with out - than that judge should be held accountable. At least send them off to judging school to renew their understanding of what choreography actually is!

Naturally, any judge will be able to frame a suitable response in such terms as to be able justify their marks. The PCS marks are, after all, subjective. Still, were the judge required to sit down and frame a response, everyone would get to thinking about this in a clearer light.

Linny
 
I'm not at all a fan of watching even very good skaters ignore the first minute of a program to do crossovers and knock off at least 3 high level jumps and then go into some sort of sitsspin, before they begin to skate and skate to the music.

Do you think there should be a penalty? It's not in accordandance with the Art of Figure Skating or the PCS scores for a balanced program. Is it?

Joe

I so agree. It drives me crazy when this beautiful, sensitive music plays and the skater has on a poker face and is doing crossovers with no arm movments or anything. I think you must be thinking of Evan when you wrote this post... he does quad combo, 3 axel, 3 loop, 3 salchow and then starts to use the music.
 
This whole post explains why I ended up loving Yuna's exhibition program at Worlds, but not her LP. ;-)

yes, I thought I was watching another skater. Just beautiful. Both she and Mao have breathtaking exhibitions.

(so glad that yu-na dropped "i'm just a girl" it really was not her style."
 
It's off topic, but I'd like to go further on that question.

What is the penalty for not doing a required element ? (SP/LP)

e.g. Mao Asada's SP ate GPF. She didn't do the single triple, and it didn't look like they gave her any deuctions (of course, she didn't get the score for it)

Well as long as we're off-topic ...

There is not a separate mark-off. And if you think that means she was not "punished," note that Mao was unable to come back and win the GPF despite skating an excellent long program. Also check out what happened to Brian Joubert when he intentionally downgraded elements at Worlds.

I'm not convinced that knocking off points for omissions is necessary under CoP. It's not 6.0. All start at zero and must earn each point. "Deductions" are automatic, as when a child touches the hot stove. Splatfests happen (as they sometimes did before CoP), but in most cases leaving points back home in Peoria has significant negative consequences.

Susan
 
It's off topic, but I'd like to go further on that question.

What is the penalty for not doing a required element ? (SP/LP)

e.g. Mao Asada's SP ate GPF. She didn't do the single triple, and it didn't look like they gave her any deuctions (of course, she didn't get the score for it)

http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/First-Aid-Single_2007-08-15.pdf
This document explains how various situations are to be handled . . . once you figure out how to interpret the document. There are separate documents for pairs and dance.

Here's how I understand it. Experienced judges or technical specialists/controllers might be able to give a more accurate account of the latest rules. Under the 6.0 system, penalties and requirements were somewhat different in the short program and were quite loose in the long program.

I'll use senior ladies requirements as examples. Some specifics would be different for other levels or other disciplines.

For the short program there are some very specific required elements, so you only get credit in the base mark for elements that fill those slots. You don't get credit for anything that you don't do, you don't get credit for anything that is a different kind of element that doesn't count even as an attempt at one of the required ones, and you only get 8 slots to fill.

If you perform an element that meets some basic definition of an element and that element fits into one of the required element slots, you get credited with the attempt and you get the base mark for what you actually did, with the appropriate GOE.

If you attempt the element but the attempt is not even successful enough to be called as an element, you get no points for that element. If it's recognizable what you were attempting from the entry, it will be called as that kind of element with no level or no number of revolutions for a jump but will get no base mark and no GOE.

If you just leave out an element completely, you get no points for the element and nothing is called, and you end up with 7 instead of 8 elements listed on the protocol. That's what happened to Asada at the GP Final.

If you perform an element that does not fit into any of the required element slots, you get no credit for it but it block a slot so you can't do the correct element later and get credit.

If you repeat an element (e.g., fall on a spin entry or jump takeoff, get up and try again), you get no credit for the second attempt even if it's successful.

And so forth.

For the long program, senior ladies get 7 jump slots (of which up to 3 can be combos or sequences), 4 spin slots, 1 step sequence slot, and 1 spiral sequence slot. They don't have to use all those slots, but they don't get credit for anything they don't do (naturally) or for an extra element after all the slots for that kind of element has been filled.

The only kind of jump element that's required is some kind of axel jump (forward outside takeoff; single, double, or triple; in combination or not; landing on either foot).

If the skater hasn't done any kind of axel by the 7th jump slot, then whatever she does do in that slot will get no credit. If she does an axel as her 8th jump element, it will get no credit because she only gets 7 jump slots.

If she attempts an axel as the 1st-6th jump element but pops or "waxels" on the takeoff so there is not enough rotation to count as a nondowngraded single axel, it will be called as A with no base value and no GOE, it will fill a jump slot, but it will meet the requirement for an axel attempt.

There are also three kinds of spins that are required in the long program: a flying spin, some sort of combination spin, a spin in one position. The other spin can be anything the skater wants. Some spins can meet two of those requirements (i.e., a flying spin always either also will be in one position or it also will be a combination spin) but each spin can only fill one of the required slots. So if the skater gets to the 4th spin slot and still hasn't done three different spins that meet those three requirements, the 4th spin won't count.
 
Under the current rules, there's a good reason for not saving a 2A for the last jump in a program if it's the only axel in the program. If there are two double axels planned, or at least one triple in addition, then it's not a problem, but for ladies, who only get 7 jump passes, and who may want to include at least six triples and who may not do triple-triples, it is an issue.
Some sort of axel is required, so it's important to get one in during the first seven jump passes even if an earlier flawed attempt at a combination or sequence ends up getting split into two separate jump passes.

What I meant by "not saving up the last 2A" was that Morozov's pupils do their final jumping pass way before the end of the program. It's usually 4 jumps in a row as soon as the music starts, skate around doing spins and some choreo for about a minute waiting until the half mark, then do all the remaining jumps, and finish off with whatever spins or steps/spirals are left.
 
This thread has turned into Double Axel musings.

BOT. Does anyone really think of artistry when watching 3 or 4 big jumps during the first minute of the program interspersed with crossovers and travelling in a circle (or a serpentine at best)?

Just how does that fit in with choreography and the very popular "oh, so ballet like".

Joe
 
I've no problem with skaters concentrating on jumps in the first minute.

I would say that in the triple jump era this is very much the rule and any other program structure is an exception. Some skaters do manage to put in some difficulty in the steps, turns, and edges between the jumps; others just fill the simple stroking with upper body and expression . . . or not.

I think the better ones do manage to pay attention to the music (except when they are setting up the jumps), and I'd rather see front-loaded programs than splatfests.

Some examples from the "shock & awe" thread of programs that include little but difficult jumps and building up speed for jumps in the first minute or so but get our attention by the skaters' commitment to the movement and the music:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEYNskBniw0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvp8noEJmlA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouNL5ux17c4

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZCRaoNfU0r8


I don't see why skaters can't edit their music so that crossover, crossover, crossover, QUAD!!!! does fit the music. Something that builds without much subtlety to a big crescendo.

I'm not thinking of quad examples offhand, but here are some programs from the 90s that made the first half minute or so all about building suspense for the opening triple axel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42dHP51ey-0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ieGvGdfyeo

It's not on youtube and it's a short program, but see if you can find Vyacheslav Zagorodniuk's 1996 SP to the Russian Sailor's Dance for another example. (I suggest the Europeans performance.)

Not the first element in the program, but musically and choreographically that's where the opening moves are heading:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QY030WKbCfE
 
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