Joubert still miffed about worlds finish

[NatachaHatawa]

I'm really glad this kind of interview came out in English. Since World's, I've only ever heard Brian manage to explain himself in French press. I agree with everything he says about the system.
Some people would sat say he's a sore looser, but I'd say he's humain and honest. Other skaters are even sorer but just grit their teeth to preserve their image, at least Brian's honest.

I'm not sure how he thinks he is advancing the "technical level of skating" when his World LP's big tricks consisted of one solo 4T, one solo 3A, and two combos (one of which was a 2-1). That is not exactly pushing the technical envelope.

Well, I've been following Brian's carreer for ages and I completely agree. But if Brian resigns himself to doing such programs it's because of the system. Before, Brian used to take loads of risks and never played it tacticly, just gave it all he got. However, under the CoP, this never paid off, on the contrary, he was sanctionned for it. Since the Olys he's understood that to win in this new system, one has to skate tacticly, not neccessary greatly. At the 08 Worlds, had Daisuke and Stephane done good programs, Brian would have taken more risks. However they did not and he just did the necessary to come (at that momment) first. Brian wants to take risks, but he also wants to win and, unless one skates a clean program, those two are incompatible.

 

[ManyCairns]

^ COP is the supreme system of rewarding unclean skates. If you just rotate your jumps, you'll still get a good many points for the attempt, a la Kostner at Worlds this year.

Buttle in the past also attempted quads for points, although the likelihood of his landing them were small. But he put them in for many comps, and they paid off with medals.

I think this year's men's results are an anomaly. Generally, in COP, messy but high base mark wins over clean. Haven't we had numerous threads on this board lamenting that fact? That's the way the hardcore fans call it, and suggest that's why skating results look so suspicious to the casual fans.

Except in this one result, I strongly disagree with Brian that attempting more technically is not rewarded. As long as you make the rotations in the air, you can step out, break at the waist, hand down -- and still get a fair number of points.

Brian in this LP just let a little too much tech go by, with the "missed" combos/jumps, etc.

 

[hockeyfan228]

Well, I've been following Brian's carreer for ages and I completely agree. But if Brian resigns himself to doing such programs it's because of the system. Before, Brian used to take loads of risks and never played it tacticly, just gave it all he got. .

"All he got" under the old system was inconsistent jumping, awful, perfunctory spins and lots of two-footed skating. Yes, he had some quads, usually coupled with a flaky 3A,, but "The System" didn't make him drop his hardest content at the last two World Championships and deliberately underestimate his opponents, especially since he would have received credit for fully-rotate quads even with falls and hands down. He chose that on his own, and barely beat Takahashi last year and was routed by Buttle this year.

 

[Buttercup]

"All he got" under the old system was inconsistent jumping, awful, perfunctory spins and lots of two-footed skating. Yes, he had some quads, usually coupled with a flaky 3A,, but "The System" didn't make him drop his hardest content at the last two World Championships and deliberately underestimate his opponents, especially since he would have received credit for fully-rotate quads even with falls and hands down. He chose that on his own, and barely beat Takahashi last year and was routed by Buttle this year.

Oh, please. A lot of skaters have been forced to work on aspects of their skating that weren't rewarded as much in the past, be it steps, spins, flutzing, or other elements. And he couldn't have been so awful before CoP came in, considering he won his first three Euro medals and a World silver under the old system.

Joubert's hardly the first skater to take calculated risks with how much difficulty he puts into his program based on the situation. As I wrote earlier in this thread, it was a strategy that worked last year and didn't work this year (and he himself said he won't make the mistake of underestimating Buttle in the future).

But you are right, the system didn't make him drop (some of) his hardest jumps at 2007 Worlds - his injured foot which was barely healed at the time did that. Here's the relevant part from the Globe and Mail story about last year's worlds:

The victories belonged to the strong last night and that was Brian Joubert of France, who won his first world gold medal, even though he was overcoming an injury: several weeks ago, he spiked his foot with the blade of the other foot, causing him to miss some crucial training. The injury healed only a couple of days before he came to Tokyo, but it didn't give him enough time to properly train Lutzes and flips. In the short program, he made a mistake on the triple flip

The full story is here http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070322.wsptskate22/BNStory/Front.

If people want to criticize his skating, fine. Certainly he has things he needs to improve upon. Taking issue with his opinions about scoring is certainly legit, too. When someone makes comments like that he is certainly going to spark some debate. But for people to consistently comment on his scaled back tech content in 2007, when he was injured and still going out there and fighting as best he could, is simply unfair and uncalled for.

 

[NatachaHatawa]

"All he got" under the old system was inconsistent jumping, awful, perfunctory spins and lots of two-footed skating. Yes, he had some quads, usually coupled with a flaky 3A,, but "The System" didn't make him drop his hardest content at the last two World Championships and deliberately underestimate his opponents, especially since he would have received credit for fully-rotate quads even with falls and hands down. He chose that on his own, and barely beat Takahashi last year and was routed by Buttle this year.

I agree. But we must remember that since Brian has obviously progressed since then, so the risks aren't the same as before. Just before the the CoP arrived and during the first two seasons of it, Brian would nearly always attempt two quads in his LPs. However, with the CoP, it's tacticly better sometimes to do a triple, rather than attempt a quad and get huge deductions. As for his spins, Brian does recognise his lack in that area and does appreciate the way the new system tries to encourage more complete skating.
It might not be the system that directly tells him "go and do the minimum to win", but the effect it has on him. Brian his someone who likes to skate with his guts, not with his brain, but he's having to adapt; he's still getting to know the system and how he can balance both guts and brain.

 

[screech]

I'm a little bit on both sides of this debate.

1. Brian does kind of need to give it a rest. Going on about the result isn't going to change anything except how people feel about you.

2. Different skaters have different ideas on what should be rewarded in skating. Brian is one who feels the jumps, in particular the quad, which has significantly advanced the sport and become a defining move in the past 20 years. He doesn't want to see it regress when for 20 years it has been the goal. He is trying to get that idea out in hopes that it will keep the technical aspect of the sport progressing, not staying stagnant. He isn't anywhere (that I've seen) saying that he deserved the win or that he skated the most risky skate that night. He has continuously said that Jeff deserved the win. Based on risk, he said that he has taken risks and will continue to take them and that it was disappointing that a non-quad skate won. He wasn't bashing Jeff at all, it was just a comment on the technical difference based on the prevous 12 years. He has actually been (in an odd sense) a somewhat gracious loser - admitting deserved defeat, but he is trying to turn his defeat into a means of promoting what many skaters believe - the quad needs to be rewarded more.

In my mind, I think the jump values are fine - the quad is worth 1.5 more than the 3a, which is worth more than a 3a. So many skaters can't attain the 3a that it needs to be rewarded as well. Even the world champ hadn't been able to do 2 successfully in a program in over 2 years before March 23. I think the values need to stay the same so that the sport can stay 'figure skating' not 'quad jumping'. As Jeff said after Brian's comments started, there are more aspects and all need to be worked on. You can be the best jumper in the world, but that's just one aspect of the sport - there are so many other important parts of the sport that make you excel at the sport. That's like saying a pilot is good at flying a plane once it's in the air. That's fine, but can he take off? Can he land? There are so many other important aspects that lead to making the sport what it is.

 

[Mathman]

The only thing I blame Brian for is that he really does seem to be saying, "I'm mad at this system because it allows an effete artiste like Buttle to beat a macho quad-man like me. The rules ought to be changed so this can't happen."

 

[Buttercup]

The only thing I blame Brian for is that he really does seem to be saying, "I'm mad at this system because it allows an effete artiste like Buttle to beat a macho quad-man like me. The rules ought to be changed so this can't happen."

Well, considering his comment that working on his own presentation is a big priority, I'd say that Joubert's point is more along the lines of "Jeffrey is a great skater, but he should be doing quads like most of the other top guys. The rules ought to be changed so that there's more incentive for everyone to do so." There are artistic skaters that are performing cool programs and still managing to put in quads .

 

[Mathman]

^ You have a nice way with words. :thumbsup:

 

[Buttercup]

^ You have a nice way with words. :thumbsup:

I'm not sure if that was meant seriously or not - I feel a bit strange trying to divine the private thoughts of Brian Joubert. I did look at an interview he did here shortly after 2005 Euros before writing one of my earlier posts on this thread. Now, bearing in mind the interview is not that recent, I thought there were some interesting points that came up in it, including two that are relevant to this discussion:
1. When asked to name his favorite (current) skaters, Joubert listed Johnny Weir, Jeffrey Buttle and Emanuel Sandhu. He seemed particularly impressed with Sandhu.
2. In response to the next question in the interview, Joubert said, among other things, that the quad was not receiving as many points as he had hoped for (under CoP), and that Weir, who had beaten him at TEB earlier that season, deserved his win.

I guess we can make of that whatever we want... and I really need to stop commenting on this matter

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

He would never admit liking Stephane since they have been European rivals for quite some time. Stephane took the thunder away from Joubert when Plushenko bowed out in Moscow and after 2006 Olys when Stephane again won Worlds in 2006 Calgary.

and what does it mean if a competitor likes another competitor. We don't know what those reasons are. Should we?

Joe

 

[Mathman]

I'm not sure if that was meant seriously or not -

Quite seriously. You expressed a view of Joubert's position very well, and now I think your interpretation is better than mine.

 

[Buttercup]

He would never admit liking Stephane since they have been European rivals for quite some time. Stephane took the thunder away from Joubert when Plushenko bowed out in Moscow and after 2006 Olys when Stephane again won Worlds in 2006 Calgary.

From his comments this year and in the past, I get the feeling Brian views Stephane as a major rival, so while he may not like him, he definitely respects him.

And thanks, Mathman. But I still need to start sommenting on other matters!

 

[hockeyfan228]

Oh, please. A lot of skaters have been forced to work on aspects of their skating that weren't rewarded as much in the past, be it steps, spins, flutzing, or other elements.

Apart from the World Champion, who had complex spins and footwork long before CoP.

And he couldn't have been so awful before CoP came in, considering he won his first three Euro medals and a World silver under the old system.

Of course he wasn't awful. However, he was great in only two major championship: 2004 Euros and Worlds (which I think he should have won, but I think it was a political decision to put him second in his qualifying group, which took a little wind out of his sails.) . The fields at Euros weren't notably deep -- in 2002, Plushenko didn't skate, and Abt was unusually good and even consistent -- ,and Joubert did everything he could to give away the bronze with his LP. (Plus ending up in the mid-teens at SLC, post a Euros bronze, and not so great Worlds until 2004.

Joubert's hardly the first skater to take calculated risks with how much difficulty he puts into his program based on the situation. As I wrote earlier in this thread, it was a strategy that worked last year and didn't work this year (and he himself said he won't make the mistake of underestimating Buttle in the future).

It was a strategy that barely worked last year, and after last year, he made noises like it wouldn't happen again. But again, he was arrogant enough to kiss the ice, as if he had won the competition, and then complained repeatedly about the outcome.

But you are right, the system didn't make him drop (some of) his hardest jumps at 2007 Worlds - his injured foot which was barely healed at the time did that.

That doesn't explain why he did it again, and this time from a position of weakness, after his fall on the "easy" 3Lutz in the SP.

But for people to consistently comment on his scaled back tech content in 2007, when he was injured and still going out there and fighting as best he could, is simply unfair and uncalled for.

It wouldn't have been an issue if he hadn't bragged about his superior technical content in the context of complaining about the system. He had ONE harder element. He did not even have the harder total jump content, let alone harder total content.

 

[hockeyfan228]

Just before the the CoP arrived and during the first two seasons of it, Brian would nearly always attempt two quads in his LPs. However, with the CoP, it's tacticly better sometimes to do a triple, rather than attempt a quad and get huge deductions.

That suggests that he either is less consistent with his quad than he was when he was younger, or that he wasn't rotating them properly. Underrotation, with the double penalty, or falling on an underrotated jump (ouch, ouch) is the only way to get a "huge" deduction.

People have been complaining for several years that Buttle got 5 points for his fall on the quad (9-3-1 for the fall deduction). 5 points is more than several of the triples, and almost as much as doing the maximum number of 2T's (4) to get three combinations using doubles. The quad vs. triple strategy makes sense only if you can't rotate the quad.

 

[hockeyfan228]

He would never admit liking Stephane since they have been European rivals for quite some time. Stephane took the thunder away from Joubert when Plushenko bowed out in Moscow and after 2006 Olys when Stephane again won Worlds in 2006 Calgary.

There are plenty of rivals that like and respect each other.

Lambiel did not take away Joubert's thunder in Moscow: Joubert had a lousy SP and buried himself, only to kick himself when Plushenko withdrew, as Plushenko had been his most formidable rival the season before.

I suspect Lambiel is too "artsy" for Joubert's taste. He tosses his head, has spins that make the crowds scream, and eschews the upright, macho posture that Joubert only this season started to lose. He gets great PCS, even when he has a bad skate. (Simond is a great influence on Joubert, between body movement and costumes, even if the six-pack was still a remnant.)

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

From his comments this year and in the past, I get the feeling Brian views Stephane as a major rival, so while he may not like him, he definitely respects him.

You didn't read Brian's comments when Stephane had his knee problems?. Brian said 'he is looking for sympathy'.

Joe

 

[Buttercup]

No, I didn't read those - and I hope he was misquoted or that his comments were taken out of context if he did say it.

What I did read was the interview in which he said that he admires Stephane's spins (well, who wouldn't) and the quality of his skating and considers him "dangerous" (which I imagine he meant in a positive way). This would be the same 2005 interview in which he spoke positively about Sandhu, Weir and Buttle. I also remember that he expressed his disappointment at Stephane not being at 2007 Euros, because he wanted them to compete for the title.

But as I said before, I'm hardly privy to Brian Joubert's private thoughts about other skaters

 

[calica]

The interview seems to me to be very interesting though some of them want to see only a discussion on the quad, and the "bad boy" that is Joubert with regard to other skaters, though here he does not speak on anybody. It complements itself with other interviews that he has done recently in that he says that for the next season he is going to do 2 new programs to continue evolving artistically. :agree:

 

[NatachaHatawa]

I think the main conclusion of the interview is this: Brian isn't a sore looser nor does he criticise the system for not privilidging HIM (he likes the fact that it privilidges complete skaters), and he doesn't criticise rivals just because they beat him (I've never heard him blast anyone except Plush). Brian just wants the system to take quads and triple axels more into account, because as they are underrated, skaters can now get away with not doing any, as it doesn't always pay off, and that's not helping skating progress. I think Brian feels the same as many people about the system in the way that it it isn't allowing skating to evolve, and in a way, is making it regress.