Joubert still miffed about worlds finish

[mycelticblessing]

Also wrt sportsmanship, I agree that petitioning is not a great option however, in SLC, it was absolutely the right decision because in that case, a judge was found to have cheated and cheating should not be tolerated. Cheating is an example of the worst kind of poor sportsmanship. The judge should have been from international judging for life IMO.

Just to digress, I think the petitioning as well as awarding a second Gold medal made things worse. S/P may have churned out a performance worthy of Gold, but in my opinion, so did B/S. Anyone could have won that night. The second gold medal took away the sense of victory for B/S and I don't think it was a very rewarding experience for S/P either. B/S had no role to play in the judging controversy, so I think 'poor sportsmanship' is completely inappropriate in this case. There is no doubt they were victims in SLC.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^

B/S had no role to play in the judging controversy, so I think 'poor sportsmanship' is completely inappropriate in this case. There is no doubt they were victims in SLC

Had the results based upon a crooked judge remained then S/P would have been the victims. taking the crooked judge's score away from the results, it was a tie.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

4-3-3 sounds pretty difficult (though I believe it actually dates back to Plushy), does anyone know what it's worth under CoP?

4T+3T+3Lo is worth 18.0 points, base value.

But it is still not clear that it is worth doing under the current Zayak rules.

If you do a loop and a toe loop both in your combo, then you can't do any triple-triple combo in your program if you also want to repeat two of the higher-scoring jumps, like a second quad or two triple Axels or two triple Litzes.

What is different in the new system however, are level 4 footwoork and spins. You don't see those under 6.0.

I am not sure that doing more changes of positions, changes of edges, etc., in spins is really an advance. To me, many of the positions seem awkward and unattractive, no matter how difficult they are to attain.

Same with footwork. Last year it seemed like all the ladies tried to get credit for "working the upper body" by humping their backs up and down like dolphins. The men countered by throwing their arms about this way and that.

For those who need to see 4 or more rotations in the air, how about watching some extreme snowboarding?

I agree with that sentiment.

There are many sports that feature athletic young men leaping vigorously into the air. It is not this aspect of a performance that sets figure skating apart. IMHO It's a devil's bargain to sacrifice our heart and soul chasing after ever more "sportliness."

 

[mycelticblessing]

^


Had the results based upon a crooked judge remained then S/P would have been the victims. taking the crooked judge's score away from the results, it was a tie.

Joe

That's true. But take away the crooked judge, and replace it with another, it could have been anyone's game.
Unfortunately, the North American media handled the entire situation so poorly, that B/S became the worst hit in the entire scandal.

 

[Mathman]

Unfortunately, the North American media handled the entire situation so poorly, that B/S became the worst hit in the entire scandal.

I don't think anyone blamed Anton and Elena for anything.

Who took the hit? Figure skating itself.

But at least we got a new term out of the deal: "French judge : A crooked sports official."

 

[Linny]

Like it

In some respects, I like where the sport is heading. I hated it back in the day when Tim G would medal on the strength of a quad (or two) but nothing else. And please don't get me started on Plushy's empty programs.

So, I'm happy when a more complete skate without a quad beats a skate that includes a quad.

Linny

 

[sillylionlove]

For those who need to see 4 or more rotations in the air, how about watching some extreme snowboarding? They jump way higher and you can actually see the rotation and count them as they spin slowly.

I think that Shaun White does the best quad in the world!!!

 

[jennylovskt]

I fail to see the big deal about the quad in advancing the sport: it's only 1/2 extra rotation and it lasts .136 second. How does that add anything to the excitement of watching a 4 minute program?

It's exciting because it gives the wow factor.

For those who need to see 4 or more rotations in the air, how about watching some extreme snowboarding? They jump way higher and you can actually see the rotation and count them as they spin slowly.

Snowboarding is not attractive at all! I am one of the people who like 4 or more rotations in the air with music and beautiful choreograph. If it's something that only a few people can do, it will add the excitement to the figure skating.

 

[Buttercup]

So, I'm happy when a more complete skate without a quad beats a skate that includes a quad.
Linny

I'm spoiled. I want both. Now, leaving Joubert aside, because though I'm a fan I won't try to argue that he's a great spinner or a lyrical skater, I think some of the top guys in the last decade have done both: e.g. Yagudin, Lambiel, Plushenko when he was actually doing his choreo rather than just his jumps. I don't think we should be looking at jumps and artistic or musical peformances (or whatever one wants to call them ) as being mutually exclusive.

Now:

I am not sure that doing more changes of positions, changes of edges, etc., in spins is really an advance. To me, many of the positions seem awkward and unattractive, no matter how difficult they are to attain.

Same with footwork. Last year it seemed like all the ladies tried to get credit for "working the upper body" by humping their backs up and down like dolphins. The men countered by throwing their arms about this way and that.

What Mathman said, except for the part about the dolphins. I love dolphins, and I hate the emphasis on upper body movement :scowl:.

 

[BigJohn]

The only way to advance the Sport, imo, is to have the Jumps have their own competition, and cut out the music.

I presume all other facets of figure skating can not advance the Sport. Am I correct.

Joe

I see what you mean, but really, who would watch that?

Like Linny said, the sport is heading in the right direction. The best skate wins, period. Quad or quadless, that's irrelevent.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

It's exciting because it gives the wow factor.

Snowboarding is not attractive at all! I am one of the people who like 4 or more rotations in the air with music and beautiful choreograph. If it's something that only a few people can do, it will add the excitement to the figure skating.

Wow factor it is for some people. Others prefer an overextended leg in the air for a wow spiral.

Diving aleady has that, the Dives are magnificent and in tune with what ballet dancers do also. And there is no music!!!

 

[stevlin]

what comes after the Quad?

Suppose every top skater gets the quad, what will they try next? 5 rotations? I would much rather see a Jeffrey Buttle World program where all 8 triples were clean, done beautifully. Also perfect sit spins, spins, footwork and everything else done at a high level. I love the artistry of figure skating and Jeff Buttle and Johnny Weir did that for me. Joubert is a wonderful skater but his sit spins and footwork could get better. Quads are not everything. Amazing when they can do it as long as the rest of their program is great.

 

[silver.blades]

It's exciting because it gives the wow factor.

Snowboarding is not attractive at all! I am one of the people who like 4 or more rotations in the air with music and beautiful choreograph. If it's something that only a few people can do, it will add the excitement to the figure skating.

I'm not against people trying the quad, but other things in skating give it the wow factor as well. I love to see well exectuted jumps, but spins like Lambiel's or Jeff's footwork are the wow in skating IMO. The difficulty of spins and footwork is under valued becaue every skater can do both and not everyone can do a quad or 3A, but there are more skaters with difficult jumps than amazing spins and footwork. All the cardio is skating comes from spins and footwork, a jump is over in a second, but footwork and spins are sustained and the muscles have to work continually throughout the element.
An even bigger wow factor is landing the triples within complex choreo with good spins and footwork. The intracecy of a program like Patrick Chan's or Jeff's makes up for lacking the difficulty on the quad, because the program itself is twice as hard as a quad is.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^

Excellent post. I totally agree, but in defence of the suject skater, I would say he now has a beautiful camel spin. Not enough rotations but exquisite position. Go to the tape and check it out.

Joe

 

[Tonichelle]

Suppose every top skater gets the quad, what will they try next? 5 rotations?

It'd be neat to see if a quint jump was possible, or even a quad axel (Kurt Browning said many moons ago that he didn't think it was possible, but who knows, right?)

It would be neat, but I don't think the sport needs the jump.

Though I do love a GREAT 3 Axel and if people had decided not to push the envelope we wouldn't have that jump... same goes with the quad... I just enjoy seeing them and, to me, they don't take away from the program if they're done right (Kurt Browning's Antares in CSOI has a set up and he does make a face when he lands it, but I think it fits perfectly to that part of the program and it works... it doesn't ruin the flow at all)

While I do argue that the sport should stay a sport first during competition, that doesn't mean I like the guys who just skate around and wait for the next jump... I appreciate the whole package type skaters. I just get tired of hearing that the sport shouldn't change and embrace new elements... it seems a little... weird to say brute strength should play no part of a competitive sport.

 

[Bennett]

I'm not against people trying the quad, but other things in skating give it the wow factor as well. I love to see well exectuted jumps, but spins like Lambiel's or Jeff's footwork are the wow in skating IMO. The difficulty of spins and footwork is under valued becaue every skater can do both and not everyone can do a quad or 3A, but there are more skaters with difficult jumps than amazing spins and footwork. All the cardio is skating comes from spins and footwork, a jump is over in a second, but footwork and spins are sustained and the muscles have to work continually throughout the element.
An even bigger wow factor is landing the triples within complex choreo with good spins and footwork. The intracecy of a program like Patrick Chan's or Jeff's makes up for lacking the difficulty on the quad, because the program itself is twice as hard as a quad is.

I agree. I think steps and spins are so much under-valued not because everyone can do it, but just because their base values are so low. Even though there are clear differences in the skaters' skills in steps and spins, the system is not structured in a way that could reward those who have amazing spins and steps accordingly. I don't want to compare skater A and B here, so let me use the Mao last year and the Mao this year. Despite her amazing development in steps that people admired, she earned only 0.6 point more in total (SP + LP)! This margin can be so easily canceled out by just a slight, accidental two-foot in one jump.

Quote of my post from another thread:
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showpost.php?p=314726&postcount=15

Mao also got a level four on her SP straightline steps in the US vs. Japan team event last fall. But this is not an official ISU event.

This season, I believe that her steps deserved better scores. But the system didn't allow them to be rewarded.

-At her previous Worlds back in 2007, she got level 3 in both SP and LP and her GOE were like 0.5 and 0.64.

-At this 2008 Worlds, she got level 3 in both SP and LP and her GOE were 0.79 and 0.93.

Despite her marked improvement and all the praises about her new steps, she is earning merely 0.6 points more in total. That's a shame.

 

[jennylovskt]

I love to see well exectuted jumps, but spins like Lambiel's or Jeff's footwork are the wow in skating IMO. ... An even bigger wow factor is landing the triples within complex choreo with good spins and footwork.

I agree. I am no way liking a jumping bean contest. Not sure if Evan Lysacek's idea will be attractive to me. I will decide when I actually see it. In general, I like artistic skaters, such as Kurt Browning, Brian Boitano, Johnny Weir, Jeffrey Buttle, Alexandar Abt, Alexei Urmenov... . If artistic skaters are with quad jumps, it will be perfect, such as Alexei Yagudin, Evgeni Plushenko, and Stephane Lambiel. (Of course, Kurt was the first one excuted a quad.) Because not many people have all around abilities, it makes them even more special.

 

[Buttercup]

I'm not against people trying the quad, but other things in skating give it the wow factor as well. I love to see well exectuted jumps, but spins like Lambiel's or Jeff's footwork are the wow in skating IMO.

I agree about really good steps and spins being a true wow factor in a performance (e.g. Yagudin's steps in Winter, Lambiel's programs). I'm not sure I'd have used Jeffrey as an example because while his steps are intricate and beautiful, he's not inclined towards showmanship so to me the experience is one of admiration rather than "wow".

But it is subjective, what we find most important and who we find most appealing. And I think pushing the envelope with the jump content is also important - and by this I mean both doing more difficult jumps/combos and the quality of said jumps.

I think steps and spins are so much under-valued not because everyone can do it, but just because their base values are so low.

Bennett, I think the problem is not the low base values so much as the lack of real differentiation in scoring between the levels. When people were writing that Jeffrey won it in part on spins and footwork, it was obvious to me he did not (and not just because he and Joubert had almost identical step sequence marks). Unless a competition is really close, there's no way higher spin levels would be the difference. Possibly if the GOEs where really high, but only then.

I really think the ISU needs to go back to the drawing board because there are a lot of elements - jump and non-jump - that are not marked in a way that reflects their difficulty and their importance for a well-rounded program. Not to mention the specific features required for high levels have led to ugly spins and step sequences (and don't even get me started on the ice dance lifts ).

 

[merrybari]

I really think the ISU needs to go back to the drawing board because there are a lot of elements - jump and non-jump - that are not marked in a way that reflects their difficulty and their importance for a well-rounded program. Not to mention the specific features required for high levels have led to ugly spins and step sequences (and don't even get me started on the ice dance lifts ).

You said a mouthful. I couldn't agree more.

 

[Kasey]

Another positive step would be using the PCS marks as they are meant to be used. There is the possibility that someone could earn an 8 for skating skills and a 5.75 for choreography and interpretation....far too few judges are scoring in that manner though.