Kamila Valieva: Anti-doping Case and Follow-ups

[icewhite]

Well, I'm not saying Kamila shouldnt be banned from competing, because the fact of the matter is that it is banned. But people here talk about clean sport like Valieva committed a mortal sin corrupting some system of virtuous athletes which is extremely not true. I also dont think she should be banned from just training and going where she grew up.

If you are asking about my idea of what the rules should be moving forward in general for sport, I dont know. I dont have the required specific information to know if doping being allowed and open would benefit the world. But anybody who says they are 100% sure it wouldnt, probably has no clue what theyre talking about.

I agree that there is a high degree of naivité or even pretending - I am well aware of wide spread doping in sports.
However there is only so much that anti doping fighters can do. There are many factors playing against them, funding, associations and people actively working against them, laws that favour the athletes and feds in questions of doubt - there is usually a much higher amount of substance required to be proven in the system than is extremely suspect, contamination is often a possibility etc. Most of all the doping methods are always ahead, and anti doping has to catch up. Yet and especially because of all these problems I support every effort that is made and I am 100% convinced that allowing doping is not a possibility or any kind of solution in a humane society: There are power imbalances all around. Not just the dopers profit from doping, but also for instance their coaches, their feds, their sponsors... And if you allow doping it will lead to some people becoming totally unhinged. So the others can only leave the sport or play the game of death, and I mean literally death. I want to see sport, not gladiators torn apart by lions, so as a viewer I would find that deeply disgusting - there also is responsibility by the organizations which are often funded with public money to not put the health of humans at unnecessary risk, and there are also the cases of simply dependend athletes who cannot be allowed to be played with even if they are adults. I have dealt academically with doping in history, and if you read up on for instance doping in the GDR you need to have a heart of stone to not feel that this was inhumane.

My hope would be that doping in figure skating, because it is such a technical sport and with less money behind it, is actually not as wide spread as in many other sports, but honestly, I have no clue. I just know that there needs to be anti doping and that when there is a positive test it cannot be let slipped.

Like I said I suppose Kamila could have gotten a lesser punishment had they gone for a better line of defense.

 

[RafaelAstro]

After reading many Russian comments from all kinds of skaters, coaches, fed people about this I don't know how Russia could be allowed back even if they were for other reasons. They don't even show any interest in cleaning up the whole thing. It's all just bad ISU, bad Americans, bad IOC, bad international organizations, we will show them.
Only they use much more vulgar terms.
Showing. no. interest. in. anti-doping. whatsoever.

And for that reason and many others I enjoy more the competitions without russians, it is now more friendly

 

[Mathematician]

I agree that there is a high degree of naivité or even pretending - I am well aware of wide spread doping in sports.
However there is only so much that anti doping fighters can do. There are many factors playing against them, funding, associations and people actively working against them, laws that favour the athletes and feds in questions of doubt - there is usually a much higher amount of substance required to be proven in the system than is extremely suspect, contamination is often a possibility etc. Most of all the doping methods are always ahead, and anti doping has to catch up. Yet and especially because of all these problems I support every effort that is made and I am 100% convinced that allowing doping is not a possibility or any kind of solution in a humane society: There are power imbalances all around. Not just the dopers profit from doping, but also for instance their coaches, their feds, their sponsors... And if you allow doping it will lead to some people becoming totally unhinged. So the others can only leave the sport or play the game of death, and I mean literally death. I want to see sport, not gladiators torn apart by lions, so as a viewer I would find that deeply disgusting - there also is responsibility by the organizations which are often funded with public money to not put the health of humans at unnecessary risk, and there are also the cases of simply dependend athletes who cannot be allowed to be played with even if they are adults. I have dealt academically with doping in history, and if you read up on for instance doping in the GDR you need to have a heart of stone to not feel that this was inhumane.

My hope would be that doping in figure skating, because it is such a technical sport and with less money behind it, is actually not as wide spread as in many other sports, but honestly, I have no clue. I just know that there needs to be anti doping and that when there is a positive test it cannot be let slipped.

Like I said I suppose Kamila could have gotten a lesser punishment had they gone for a better line of defense.

Maybe you are right about doping, I dont know. Its not a strong belief of mine either way.

And its not specifically about Kamila getting a lesser punishment but the punishment rules in themselves. If someone lives skating why should they be banned from training? They impeded on competition and they get banned from competition, anything extra is just vengeance not justice. Its just sad to see people in here are rage-baiting about how she made her choice and deserves some extreme suffering because some athletes didnt get their medals - there is zero equivalence. They didnt get their medals because she impeded on competition, so they got their medals and she gets punished in competition - thats justice. But people here are so full of wrath towards her and want her to suffer so much extra, mock her etc... its just a sad state of the world.

 

[TallyT]

BTW, wanna let you know that figure skating doesn't have world records (or any sort of records) since the scores are subjective. So anytime you call Valieva (or, say, Kostornaya before her, or Kim Yuna even before that) a world record holder, you are incorrect. You can check the official ISU documents regarding that issue. They officially call it "highest scores" or "season/personal best".

Except when it suits them and then they blazon the words all over the place.

 

[Arwen17]

Just need to get my emotions out here because if you aren't on the "hate kamila" train on another site, you'll just get downvoted to oblivion there.

I am really angry. I wasn't aware that bans meant you literally aren't allowed to train or do shows or anything. WTHHHH! That rule should have never existed. I'm now furious for any skater that has ever been banned.
Unless you you literally, physically attacked someone and need to be locked up for safety, bans should only affect competitions.

You can take all the drugs you want in ballet and other stuff and nobody will ban you for "stealing" roles from others in auditions because you took performance-enhancing drugs. But in sports it matters because it "steals" medals from "clean" athletes.

Practice ice and ice shows have no medals. They should not be banned from this. Especially since not being able to practice is CAREER-ENDING. You might as well hand out life-time bans instead of these "4 year bans".

I was expecting a 2-year ban (and in my mind that meant she was only banned from competitions, not practice ice and shows) or they would let her off with an even lighter sentence like 2 month ban because she's clearly not supplying herself with heart medicine at 15 years old. They've already raised the age limit. There was no reason to come down on her so hard considering there will never be someone that young in Seniors ever again.

This punishment is clearly a giant f *U to Russian Fed. Perhaps for stalling so long and making the trial take 2 years to resolve and for the Ukraine war that continues to this day.
Or some kind of under-the-table deal to protect the adults in charge by throwing the teenager under the bus instead.

I could care less about medals. Award them however you like according to whatever silly rules you like. But I like to see people skate, especially people who skate well. Banning them from skating in ANY TYPE OF VENUE whatsoever is what makes me so furious.

This decision may be to punish Russia as hard as possible, but it just makes Kamila more of a martyr and just makes it more likely Russia will form their own competitions and forget the West. I'm so angry on Kamila's behalf that I almost want them to do so. And I'm not even Russian or ever been there.

It's just so hypocritical that the "good guys" (as they call themselves) are heaping all of the punishment onto a 15-year-old girl while pretending they're more "humane" than Russia is. All I see is two sides trying to see who can be the most cruel to each other.

P.S. I would have given the other teams the silver and bronze medals with the promise to swap them out while Russia would have to wait since they were the only ones that had question marks ??? about the results.
Anyone who has clear, unquestioned results gets their medals right away (with potential future upgrade). Anyone who doesn't has to wait until its resolved.
That was a deliberate choice to withhold medals from all athletes so more people would be more furious with Russia.

 

[Arwen17]

Do you want to trust the system? Well then, first, look this system in the face:

It should be added that WADA committed gross violations against Valieva - she was interrogated without accompanying persons and without a lawyer, and information about a protected person was also disclosed, which led to a hysterical campaign in the media and attacks on Kamila on social networks. At the same time, WADA officials, instead of calling journalists to order, actually orchestrated this campaign, periodically making open accusations against Valieva, thereby putting pressure on the court.

This is how the “system” you propose to trust works. For one athlete - the law, punishment and, on top of punishment, also bullying in cyberspace, and for an athlete from a “good” country - kindness, understanding, leniency and forgiveness.

This is Gold and highlights exactly why I'm so angry about the ridiculousness of the punishment.

 

[throw_triple_flip]

Keep speculating bud, I go by numbers not guesses. ISU says she has the record. Medals corrode but numbers are forever.

No one remembers scores. They remember medals. Many people know Usain Bolt is the fastest man ever, but most don't know his actual record time.

World records mean something in sports that can be measured relatively objectively (who ran the fastest, who threw the furthest, etc). In judged sports? Not so much.

Figure skating records are merely a statement of the opinion of twelve people. Not fact.

 

[Mathematician]

No one remembers scores. They remember medals.

World records mean something in sports that can be measured relatively objectively (who ran the fastest, who threw the furthest, etc). In judged sports? Not so much.

I can barely name euro or world medalists in order. Theres hundreds of gold medals, it means nothing at this point. People can call it the highest score, the record, the whatever they want. Point is people remember the highest number that popped up on their screen, semantics wont stop that.

Many people know Usain Bolt is the fastest man ever, but most don't know his actual record time.

Exactly I dont even know what number she got, but I know it was the biggest! People do and will always remember this. Sorry.

 

[lariko]

If I didn’t see it here, I wouldn't believe that someone could stoop as low as to condemn all the figure skaters, everywhere, wholesale rather than forego attachment to one specific athlete who cheated. But, people are weird.

 

[Mathematician]

If I didn’t see it here, I wouldn't believe that someone could stoop as low as to condemn all the figure skaters, everywhere, wholesale rather than forego attachment to one specific athlete who cheated. But, people are weird.

I havent seen anybody do that in this thread

And you always go silent then start something else when your actual points get nuked btw, its hilarious.

 

[lariko]

I havent seen anybody do that in this thread

And you always go silent then start something else when your actual points get nuked btw, its hilarious.

Lol.

I do admire on some level the change of tune of 'poor child never cheated' to 'they all cheat! Don't ya know it?' but I only have so much time for the irrational. I am happy that justice was done, despite doubting that RusFed will abide by the decision of the court of law. If people chose to accuse every Russian skaters of cheating, well, that's their business. I see test results, go by those results and consider the decision a validation of those skaters in Russia who skated clean despite the pressure and the injustice unfolding before them. Those skaters, I admire them, and hope they will benefit from this decision.

 

[Mathematician]

Lol.

I do admire on some level the change of tune of 'poor child never cheated' to 'they all cheat! Don't ya know it?' but I only have so much time for the irrational. I am happy that justice was done, despite doubting that RusFed will abide by the decision of the court of law. If people chose to accuse every Russian skaters of cheating, well, that's their business. I see test results, go by those results and consider the decision a validation of those skaters in Russia who skated clean despite the pressure and the injustice unfolding before them.

I have never once said she didnt cheat... not once. Every single post I said she should be banned from competing. You have no counter point. Like I said she should be banned from competition, thats justice, but you wish for vengeance due to unrest in your heart.

 

[Rebecca Moose]

Her peak skill was the best and probably wont be matched ever.

if that turgid danny g choreographed Bolero is the peak of figure skating, lord honey, we have major problems

 

[Mathematician]

if that turgid danny g choreographed Bolero is the peak of figure skating, lord honey, we have major problems

 

[throw_triple_flip]

The reaction from some of Kamila Valieva's fans on here is sadly predictable but extremely frustrating. Inventing wild conspiracies, instead of facing the simple and obvious truth. And while they're at it, showing a completely selfish disregard for the other skaters affected by this.

If you are a fan of her skating, if you care about her, why aren't you upset that she was doped? She's a CHILD. What's wrong in the sporting culture in that country- why is sporting 'success' so important that they would resort to that?
Why wasn't taken home as soon as the story broke, but abandoned by the people who should have protected her?

 

[lariko]

I have never once said she didnt cheat... not once. Every single post I said she should be banned from competing. You have no counter point. Like I said she should be banned from competition, thats justice, but you wish for vengeance due to unrest in your heart.

It's the rules. Grassl abides by them, the Spanish pair abides by them, other skaters abide by them, it's the same for everyone. There was a case against a woman who took diuretics' after she stopped competing when I just started watching FS in 2018, and she couldn't coach for duration of the 2 year ban.

The rules are put in place specifically as a disincentive to cheat (duh). Otherwise, there isn't much to lose, if one can just go pro for a couple of years, then return to competition.

The judgment is lenient on Valieva. The ban won't be applied correctly already, as outlined in the rulebooks, because RusFed had already bent the rules for 2 seasons, punishing clean athletes--Trusova, Tuktamysheva, Murav'eva and Sinitsina--who didn't get to stand on the podium and receive the medals they had honestly earned.

I expect that they would be mistreated by the Russian press when Valieva's medals will be transferred--if RusFed has enough integrity to do so. If they don't, these women will continue to be mistreated by their own fed. This chain of injustice will run all the way down to the 25th girl who didn't get her chance at Nats.

What's worse, RusFed officials and the coaching stuff has not been investigated and appropriately penalized for the gross mismanagement of the athletes and undermining the faith in the essential principle of playing fair.

There is enough unfairness in FS judging as is, if they start covering up for doping and glamorizing the users, then it would really be pointless.

 

[Mathematician]

The reaction from some of Kamila Valieva's fans on here is sadly predictable but extremely frustrating. Inventing wild conspiracies, instead of facing the simple and obvious truth. And while they're at it, showing a completely selfish disregard for the other skaters affected by this.

If you are a fan of her skating, if you care about her, why aren't you upset that she was doped? She's a CHILD. What's wrong in the sporting culture in that country- why is sporting 'success' so important that they would resort to that?
Why wasn't taken home as soon as the story broke, but abandoned by the people who should have protected her?

Easy: We are upset she was doped, and we have made it clear the adults in her life are psychopaths and using her. She also deserves to get banned from competition for provably breaking the rules, zero conspiracies as to how the rules were broken are relevant. You are making counterarguments to points that noboey made. Still doesnt answer the question of how anything beyond competitive ban and medals being given to the deserving athletes is necessary for justice.

 

[throw_triple_flip]

I havent seen anybody do that in this thread

And you always go silent then start something else when your actual points get nuked btw, its hilarious.

Is this situation really something to joke about? For heaven's sake.

Point scoring over a doped kid is just callous. Sport is NOT worth this. If this is the cost of sporting '"success" then the price is too high.

 

[Mathematician]

It's the rules. Grassl abides by them, the Spanish pair abides by them, other skaters abide by them, it's the same for everyone. There was a case against a woman who took diuretics' after she stopped competing when I just started watching FS in 2018, and she couldn't coach for duration of the 2 year ban.

The rules are put in place specifically as a disincentive to cheat (duh). Otherwise, there isn't much of a risk for being caught, if one can just go pro for a couple of years, then return to competition.

The ban won't be applied correctly, as outlined in the rulebook because RusFed had already bent the rules for 2 seasons, punishing clean athletes--Trusova, Tuktamysheva, Murav'eva and Sinitsina--who didn't get to stand on the podium and receive the medals they had honestly earned. I expect that they would be mistreated by the Russian press when Valieva's medals will be transferred--if RusFed has enough integrity to do so. If they don't, these women will continue to be mistreated by their own fed. That chain of injustice will run all the way to the 25th girl who didn't get her chance at Nats.

Moreover, RusFed officials and the coaching stuff has not been investigated and appropriately penalized for the gross mismanagement of the athletes and undermining the faith in the essential principle of playing fair.

There is enough unfairness in FS judging as is, if they start covering up for doping, then it would really be pointless.

Yea so I'm not asking for her special treatment I'm questioning the justice in the rules themselves. Ive already made this clear. Why do the rules ban from personal training when its their life? Nobody should go through this. Competition ban, give medals: justice.

 

[Mathematician]

Is this situation really something to joke about? For heaven's sake.

Point scoring over a doped kid is just callous. If you really cared about her you wouldn't do that.

What joke? I just deconstructed your strawman of "valieva fans" go ahead and respond instead of crutching on red herrings taking my other posts out of context