Kamila Valieva: Anti-doping Case and Follow-ups

[Mathman]

I don't think that the question of who gets the bronze is worth all this debate. Do the Russians really want it, or do they just say, "We won gold on the ice, screw the stupid bronze"? Will the Canadians say, we didn't win but we deserve a prize for putting in the hard work and not doing drugs"?

 

[4everchan]

I don't think that the question of who gets the bronze is worth all this debate. Do the Russians really want it, or do they just say, "We won gold on the ice, screw the stupid bronze"? Will the Canadians say, we didn't win but we deserve a prize for putting in the hard work and not doing drugs"?

Tell the athletes a bronze is not worth a debate...

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

WADA is massively underfunded. It’s why it largely outsources testing to national level anti-doping organizations and expects them to do the right thing and only really directly tests maybe top 50 athletes/possible international medal winners in individual sporting events and gets involved at that level.

The IOC on the other hand, they’ve got the dollars/euros/swiss francs to do a testing sweep of confirmed and likely entrants with a month to go before the opening ceremony. If anyone’s got the budget to test all 1,000 athletes at, say, the USA Swimming Olympic selection meet, it’s the IOC.

Yeah, maybe it’s a few fewer nights in five star hotels for ‘the suits’ as Craig Lord like to call them, but they should be willing to move down to the Novotel for the integrity of the Olympic movement.

Honestly it doesn’t cost anything to send an email or make a phone call saying someone has an outstanding/potentially positive test for a banned substance. And to be even more truthful I find that money often causes more corruption than not. Again just my opinion.

After all the scandals and dramas our little sport has brought the IOC over all these years I’m beginning to think they actually enjoy it. They probably grew up watching all the daytime soap operas that don’t really exist anymore and find us to be a suitable replacement.

The IOC is our Cricket and we’re one of her many albeit older BF’s

 

[JeanA]

I don't think that the question of who gets the bronze is worth all this debate. Do the Russians really want it, or do they just say, "We won gold on the ice, screw the stupid bronze"? Will the Canadians say, we didn't win but we deserve a prize for putting in the hard work and not doing drugs"?

That is why I really don't have an opinion (or even care) about the decision. It would have been 'nice' for the Russian team to have known about Valieva's final result of her Nationals drug test before THE DAY OF the competition. That would have given them time to reappoint Shcherbakova or Trusova (or both, preferably) to the Team Event. It was unfair to the Russian team to not be given that courtesy. The situation was just bad all around. If it was my child who was a Canadian skater on the team, I would be fighting tooth and nail for that medal. But it isn't, so I'll just let the lawyers make their cases, and may the best lawyer win.

 

[Mathman]

Tell the athletes a bronze is not worth a debate...

What could it possibly mean to a Candaian skater who knows that the Canadian team did not skate swell, but somehow ended up with a participation medal for finishing 4th out of 5 in the free skate?

There are no winners here. When a sporting event ends with the crowd buzzing about disqualifications and controversial calls by the officials, instead of the great athletic performances that thay saw, that event has failed.

For me, I'll just move on and hope for happier times ahead.

 

[4everchan]

What could it possibly mean to a Candaian skater who knows that the Canadian team did not skate swell, but somehow ended up with a participation medal for finishing 4th out of 5 in the free skate?

There are no winners here. When a sporting event ends with the crowd buzzing about disqualifications and controversial calls by the officials, instead of the great athletic performances that thay saw, that event has failed.

For me, I'll just move on and hope for happier times ahead.

One skater underperformed.

What a wrong statement to make to say that the team didn't skate well.

Also, it really doesn't matter. Kolyada didn't perform well in 2018. Does that mean ROC didn't deserve their silver? What if a Canadian skater got DQ and ROC promoted to gold... You think they wouldn't take it?

Did all members of the American team promoted to gold now skate well enough to get gold?

Seriously. I find it dismissive to say that the athletes do not deserve it.

 

[Mathman]

What if a Canadian skater got DQ and ROC promoted to gold (in 2018)... You think they wouldn't take it?

They would take it, but in their hearts they would not be as proud of it as if they had won under different circumstances.

Did all members of the American team promoted to gold now skate well enough to get gold.

No. They skated well enough to get silver. If they end up with gold, it is not for anything that they did on the ice.

 

[4everchan]

They would take it, but in their hearts they would not be as proud of it as if they had won under different circumstances.

No. They skated well enough to get silver. If they end up with gold, it is not for anything that they did on the ice.

I think our perception is essentially very different.
Happy to leave it there

 

[el henry]

The American team skated well enough for gold because an opponent who presumably finished "higher" cheated.

The Japanese team skated well enough for silver because an opponent who presumably finished "higher" cheated.

The Canadian team skated well enough for bronze because an opponent who presumably finished "higher" cheated.

Personally, I find arguments to the contrary illogical. Mr. Spock would not be pleased.

 

[readernick]

In any team event, some will skate very well, others won't. You win or lose as a team. I think most of the US team did skate well enough for the Gold. There were just two skaters who noticeability underperformed, but they were part of the team and deserve the gold, too.

The same is true for the Canadians. Maybe, a few skaters did underperform but Maddie certainly didn't. The ice dancers did well. You win or lose as a team.

Most importantly, at least they weren't doping!

I thought the ISU had reached a nice compromise with their original decision. But, after receiving this extremely fair / overgenerous decision, Russia decided to appeal. Talk about never being willing to admit fault, it's ridiculous. So now, I say, give the Canadians their bronze .

 

[Mathman]

Personally, I find arguments to the contrary illogical. Mr. Spock would not be pleased.

I don't know. All the king's logicians can't put Humpty-Dumpty back together again. Nor are they especially adroit at the game of, "if this hadn't happened, then that probably would have happened instead, but since this did happen, then here's what should happen now.

I have no ax to grind. Give everybody their medals. I guess I am just projecting how I would feeel if I were in the position of these Olympic athletes. (Naw, if I were in their position I would say, gimme everything I got coming to me!)

 

[jorge2912]

Is fair because the problem is that a doping that was ignored with a purpose. I think that never will be allowed again and this final decision is a clear message for some that does such bad practice even countries that promote anti sport practice for get a medal on stay in the podium even for political reasons.

 

[skatingguy]

I know that drug testing, if it even existed, was not as sophisticated forty or fifty years ago, but I can't find anything (just using Google) to say if any East German Olympic athletes were ever disqualified retrospectively, after it became known that their state system was forcibly feeding steroids to athletes as young as small children, in the guise of "vitamin pills"? The few who refused to take the pills were then dropped from the country's training program, but what about the many others who won medals in multiple sports while drugged?

This is tangential to the topic of Kamila, I'm just curious about what happened to all those East German medals and records -- or was the idea of so many disqualifications just too big a problem to cope with, too late, and any such idea was dropped?

No, because the East Germans had, for the the time, a very sophisticated testing program to make sure that their athletes never failed a test at an international competition, and by the time the systemic doping was revealed enough time had passed that the medals weren't reallocated.

 

[skatingguy]

It was the lab's fault that Valieva skated in the team event. Had the result been returned 30 hours earlier then of course Russia could have put any top 15 female skater from Russian championships in her place and secured gold. The medal debacle is 100% the fault of lab, not RUSADA or ROC or Valieva as I have said all along. However, now we are learning that Russian skaters were forced to corner WADA officials at the European championships in order to beg for their test results to be returned. From what I've read, it's quite normal for the results to be updated in ADAMS 5-10 days after the lab receives the sample, but they are obligated to have the test completed and ADAMS updated with 21 days.

This is not the skater's responsibility, it is the responsibility of WADA's lab 100%. The children can't be held responsible for EVERYTHING and EVERYONE.

The lab was responsible for the testing, and they completed that testing as soon as they were able to because of the circumstances at the time including being short staffed, and an increase in samples due to the pandemic. The lab is not a WADA lab because WADA doesn't run labs. WADA is a regulatory agency. They accredit labs that can perform testing, and they right the regulations which athletes, labs, and anyone involved in high level sports have to comply with.

 

[skatingguy]

I'm glad you mentioned this, because I have been wracking my brain wondering exactly WHY in 2000 the women's gymnastics team from Romania was able to keep their Team Gold after Andrea Raducan was stripped of her All-Around title for having taken Benadryl (or whatever). This helps me understand that. Thank you.

The other difference with the Raducan case is that we know that the Benadryl was administered after the team event, and prior to the All-Around.

 

[beachmouse]

Not sure if this has been brought up yet, but I find it interesting and pertinent to the discussion. At the 2000 Olympic Games in Sydney, Marion Jones was part of the team that won the gold medal in the 4 X 400 m relay. She was disqualified for doping and was stripped of her gold medal along with everyone else on the team. However, after the other 7 women on the team (those who competed in the prelims and finals) filed an appeal to the CAS, their gold medals were restored. At the time, this was the reasoning of the CAS:

"The panel found that at the time of the Sydney Olympic Games there was no express IOC or IAAF rule in force that clearly allowed the IOC to annul the relay team results if one team member was found to have committed a doping offense," CAS said.

Simply put, CAS allowed for stripping of medals of all relay squad members if one tested positive if the rulebook explicitly stated that and the rules changed for events after the 2004 Olympics.

So Usain Bolt lost one of his Olympic gold medals from the 2008 Olympics because 4x100 teammate Nesta Carter’s sample tested positive in retesting.

Usain Bolt loses Olympic relay gold medal due to teammate's doping

“It’s heartbreaking because over the years you’ve worked hard to accumulate gold medals and work hard to be a champion."

www.nbcsports.com

“The Jamaican team is disqualified from the men’s 4x100m relay event,” the IOC said Wednesday. “The corresponding medals, medalist pins and diplomas are withdrawn and shall be returned.”

Carter, part of winning 4x100m relay teams with Bolt in 2008 and 2012, failed retests of Beijing Olympic doping samples for a banned stimulant in 2016. The prohibited substance was the stimulant methylhexaneamine.

In the same press release, the IOC also stripped Russian long jumper and triple jumper Tatyana Lebedeva of her 2008 medals because of a doping positive discovered during 2016 retesting.

 

[skatesofgold]

The other difference with the Raducan case is that we know that the Benadryl was administered after the team event, and prior to the All-Around.

Yeah, some other things to note about that case is that Raducan wasn't the only gymnast who had a cold and was given the same medication on their team. So were Amanar and Olaru. The drug just wasn't detected for them because they weighed more than Raducan.

 

[Skating91]

And, in fact, even the Jamaican swimmer was provisionally suspended from October 2022 until mid-July 2023, when she was let off with a reprimand. Why it took from April (first positive test) until October for her to be temporarily suspended, only God knows.

Mackenzie Headley

Windsor, CT

www.swimcloud.com

No, she competed all throughout that time.

I'll get to all the replies, but someone said there's nuance between the cases of the 15 year old swimmers being caught multiple times with multiple drugs in her system yet receiving a reprimand and continuing to compete against honest athletes in USADA's backyard (obviously USADA don't really care about clean sports especially on their own soil), meanwhile the case of the 15 year old skater with a trace amount of one drug in her system had WADA and USADA demanding a 4 year suspension when they didn't have the facts and the initial investigation was ongoing.

Not to mention there was the case of an adult swimmer using a tap water defense and received two years with the approval of WADA.

There are no logical arguments for such a disparity in punishments.

No wonder there are juries that find people like OJ Simpson not guilty.

 

[beachmouse]

Mackenzie Headley

Windsor, CT

www.swimcloud.com

No, she competed all throughout that time.

I'll get to all the replies, but someone said there's nuance between the cases of the 15 year old swimmers being caught multiple times with multiple drugs in her system yet receiving a reprimand and continuing to compete against honest athletes in USADA's backyard (obviously USADA don't really care about clean sports especially on their own soil), meanwhile the case of the 15 year old skater with a trace amount of one drug in her system had WADA and USADA demanding a 4 year suspension when they didn't have the facts and the initial investigation was ongoing.

USADA cares about clean athletes who are good enough to have the potential to medal at the national level and represent the USA in international competition, or who are competing for prize money above a certain threshold. The Jamaican wouldn’t have ranked in the top 100 Americans in her best events and since she’s not American and not an elite athlete by their standards, she wasn’t part of the USADA anti-doping out of competition testing pool. Her only USADA contact would have been a random test at Winter Junior Nationals.

Why should USADA be responsible for testing an athlete who, while definitely above average, isn’t an elite athlete by their metrics and is never going to represent Team USA in international competition?

Really, if USADA was responsible for testing every foreign national training in the USA who represented their home country in international competition under ‘universailty’ competition invitations, they’d go broke.

 

[Skating91]

USADA cares about clean athletes who are good enough to have the potential to medal at the national level and represent the USA in international competition, or who are competing for prize money above a certain threshold. The Jamaican wouldn’t have ranked in the top 100 Americans in her best events and since she’s not American and not an elite athlete by their standards, she wasn’t part of the USADA anti-doping out of competition testing pool. Her only USADA contact would have been a random test at Winter Junior Nationals.

Why should USADA be responsible for testing an athlete who, while definitely above average, isn’t an elite athlete by their metrics and is never going to represent Team USA in international competition?

USADA don't care about clean sports and the athletes who have to compete against them. How do the swimmers missing out on medals to her now feel about USADA's position that dirty sport is allowed to exist below the national level. It's giving athletes a green light to dope.

This means RUSADA shouldn't care about skaters doping if they aren't medalling at a national level? Is this what you're saying?