Scoring bias at the national level

[snowed]

In ice dance, we can see +5 quite often. Perhaps in some lifts in pairs but hot often to we see +5 for jumps or spins or steps ? I am curious about this.

There is a bullet for all elements in Singles/ Pairs "element matches the music". I would guess this is the one that is hard to achieve/ easily missed, because the skaters train the elements a lot without music, without being required to follow a pattern, add steps, or match their rhythm to the musical rhythm and phase. I don't know if you skate at all, I do single jumps, even those require that the speed, push into ice, free leg swing, arms etc work together on a certain "timing"/ rhythm, if something is off time, the jump doesn't work.

 

[4everchan]

There is a bullet for all elements in Singles/ Pairs "element matches the music". I would guess this is the one that is hard to achieve/ easily missed, because the skaters train the elements a lot without music, without being required to follow a pattern, add steps, or match their rhythm to the musical rhythm and phase. I don't know if you skate at all, I do single jumps, even those require that the speed, push into ice, free leg swing, arms etc work together on a certain "timing"/ rhythm, if something is off time, the jump doesn't work.

I don't figure skate. I am a musician though and I can confirm to you that many skaters are not well-timed in their music.

 

[snowed]

In some sport any fall = 0. Maybe that's where I come from.. A dive that is not "landed" head first is 0. In snowboard, if you don't land your trick = your run is over.
Look there are perks to being more strict about falls= invalid element = 0.
Skaters would aim for clean programs. I think it may be more enjoyable in the long run.

yup

give it a *

more flexibility is a double-edged sword

I know that.

I didn't watch Euros but layback spins is perhaps an element more conducive to +5. Yuma's quad salchow is stellar.

I don't have a problem with + 5 on some elements. I have more of a problem in ice dance or pairs lift... where we may see "too many + 5"

I tend to have more of an issue with 10.0 components as soon as there is a bobble, a small mistake, some moment of hesitation or lack of flow or synch, why should there be any + 10.0 ? I don't agree with that. I am still not over judges giving Chock and Bates the PCS they got for a program with a fall at worlds... If I had been a judge there, I would have been an outlier So this raises the question : do judges feel they can give a 8.75-9 for world champions in ice dance when they have a major mistake like a fall and some small imperfections ... because, if normally the program could gather 9.5.... with a fall, it could easily be a 9.0... but who did that? Who felt like they had the freedom to do so? I don't recall the protocols by heart but if I am not mistaken, there were a lot more mid 9s than low 9s let alone high 8s. At least if judges still want to reward the composition and the skating skills, they should have the freedom to give a low mark for a fall in an a free dance.

I'm trying very hard to understand components and in my understanding it comes to complexity, difficulty and quality of execution ALL together. So an outstanding skater showed more complexity, difficulty and quality of execution than a good skater, even with a fall, that outstanding skater is still better... You compared with diving and snowboarding, but there they have several runs, here is just one performance.

 

[4everchan]

I'm trying very hard to understand components and in my understanding it comes to complexity, difficulty and quality of execution ALL together. So an outstanding skater showed more complexity, difficulty and quality of execution than a good skater, even with a fall, that outstanding skater is still better... You compared with diving and snowboarding, but there they have several runs, here is just one performance.

I am not implying that a skater should get more than one run BTW divers do not get several runs. They have a number of dives (5 or 6). If they miss one and get a 0 on it, buhhhhbye... there is no redoing. Snowboard, they often have 2 or 3 runs indeed... but they need to land a clean run to have a chance at a top ranking.
I am not suggesting that one mistake would mean =game over for a figure skater. I am just saying that fall should be really penalized especially when a pop is marked invalid or a tripled quad can get the zayak treatment....

Think of it this way... skater X lands a triple toe at the end of a combo but that creates a zayak... the element is invalid... the casual fan doesn't get it... even some fans in competition threads do not always get it in real time. The combo was stellar... but the rules SAY NO.

Skater Y shows up, falls on his quad toe and gets more points I don't think it makes much sense. The Zayak rule is important and should stay IMHO... but falls should be more penalized. I prefer seeing a doubled lutz or a doubled axel than a fall on a quad.

 

[gkelly]

I am not suggesting that one mistake would mean =game over for a figure skater. I am just saying that fall should be really penalized especially when a pop is marked invalid or a tripled quad can get the zayak treatment....

Is this because falls are more obvious mistakes to casual viewers, even if skaters themselves understand that a fall on a rotated jump represents a higher skill level than popping or standing up on a downgraded jump?

Think of it this way... skater X lands a triple toe at the end of a combo but that creates a zayak... the element is invalid...

In 2005 the whole element was invalid and got no points.

Then the rules were changed so that only the extra repeated jump is invalidated and the jump that was within the rule gets full base value. In a free skate (which is where the Zayak rule applies), judges would award GOE based on the quality of the whole element.

the casual fan doesn't get it... even some fans in competition threads do not always get it in real time. The combo was stellar... but the rules SAY NO.

Then the casual fan needs to be educated.

Which they might not want to be if they want their fandom to remain casual. But that doesn't mean that deliberate ignorance should drive the rules by which the expert skaters compete and expert evaluators score them.

 

[4everchan]

Is this because falls are more obvious mistakes to casual viewers, even if skaters themselves understand that a fall on a rotated jump represents a higher skill level than popping or standing up on a downgraded jump?

yes and because to me, any fall is very disruptive. I am often catching myself less engaged as soon as there is a fall in a program.

In 2005 the whole element was invalid and got no points.

Then the rules were changed so that only the extra repeated jump is invalidated and the jump that was within the rule gets full base value. In a free skate (which is where the Zayak rule applies), judges would award GOE based on the quality of the whole element.

i know that. In a SP, the Zayak is still applied... Skater does 3t instead of quad toe... then 4s-3t... and the element the 3t is also invalidated.

Then the casual fan needs to be educated.

How ?

Which they might not want to be if they want their fandom to remain casual. But that doesn't mean that deliberate ignorance should drive the rules by which the expert skaters compete and expert evaluators score them.

I agree about that. What I am suggesting is that some rules make less sense than others.

And my point then, is that some of the national bias claims may be based in rules being too difficult to really apply logically. Just the positive versus negative bullets can lead to judging errors.

 

[gkelly]

yes and because to me, any fall is very disruptive. I am often catching myself less engaged as soon as there is a fall in a program.

So should programs be scored primarily on the "how engaged is 4everchan" metric?

i know that. In a SP, the Zayak is still applied... Skater does 3t instead of quad toe... then 4s-3t... and the element the 3t is also invalidated.

According to the technical panel handbook: "A repeated jump of the same name with the same number of revolutions will be deleted, no value given, no GOE, but will occupy a jumping box; If the same jump is executed twice as a solo jump and as a part of the jump combination, the second execution will not be counted (if this repetition is in a jump combination, only the individual jump which is not according to the above requirements will not be counted)."

The "element" is the jump combination. The jump that was disallowed is only part of the element.

The skater does get some points for the element, based on the other jump that was not a repeat.

How ?

Casual fans usually gain their knowledge of the rules through broadcasts. Some broadcasters do a better job of explaining the rules than others. The ISU can't control that.

Maybe the ISU could produce some brief videos aimed at educating fans and make them available to broadcasters to slip into their broadcasts during warmups, resurfaces, etc.

Or at least have a website full of helpful videos and other explanatory graphics, etc., and encourage broadcasters to mention it and show the URL every now and then, at least once per broadcast.

And my point then, is that some of the national bias claims may be based in rules being too difficult to really apply logically. Just the positive versus negative bullets can lead to judging errors.

Or judging discrepancies, which are sometimes just differences of opinion and not actual errors.

 

[4everchan]

So should programs be scored primarily on the "how engaged is 4everchan" metric?

Lol. That's not what I am saying at all. But here's a thought... If someone who likes skating as much as I do disengage after a fall, there is a chance some others do too.

According to the technical panel handbook: "A repeated jump of the same name with the same number of revolutions will be deleted, no value given, no GOE, but will occupy a jumping box; If the same jump is executed twice as a solo jump and as a part of the jump combination, the second execution will not be counted (if this repetition is in a jump combination, only the individual jump which is not according to the above requirements will not be counted)."

The "element" is the jump combination. The jump that was disallowed is only part of the element.

The skater does get some points for the element, based on the other jump that was not a repeat.

Yes. I know all of this. It doesn't change the fact that a beautiful combo is impacted severely while a fall will get more points in the example I have given

Casual fans usually gain their knowledge of the rules through broadcasts. Some broadcasters do a better job of explaining the rules than others. The ISU can't control that.

The ISU can simplify the rule book. GS fans, including myself, praise you for your extensive knowledge. Why? Because even among serious fans, the rules handbook is too stiff to be masteredm

Maybe the ISU could produce some brief videos aimed at educating fans and make them available to broadcasters to slip into their broadcasts during warmups, resurfaces, etc.

Or at least have a website full of helpful videos and other explanatory graphics, etc., and encourage broadcasters to mention it and show the URL every now and then, at least once per broadcast.


Or judging discrepancies, which are sometimes just differences of opinion and not actual errors.

 

[gkelly]

The ISU can simplify the rule book. GS fans, including myself, praise you for your extensive knowledge. Why? Because even among serious fans, the rules handbook is too stiff to be masteredm

It used to be very simple under 6.0.

The skaters didn't have much of an idea what they were being rewarded or penalized for.

The system changed to give them detailed feedback on each element and several areas of the whole performance.

They still have questions, but a lot of their questions can be answered just by looking at the protocol.

Simplifying the rulebook so that casual fans can understand will, for the most part, make the system less responsive to the skaters' needs.

 

[4everchan]

It used to be very simple under 6.0.

The skaters didn't have much of an idea what they were being rewarded or penalized for.

The system changed to give them detailed feedback on each element and several areas of the whole performance.

They still have questions, but a lot of their questions can be answered just be looking at the protocol.

Simplifying the rulebook so that casual fans can understand will, for the most part, make the system less responsive to the skaters' needs.

Fair enough. Skaters first. Anyway, this is getting off topic. We've probably had a thread discussing this issue in the past right?

 

[gkelly]

Fair enough. Skaters first. Anyway, this is getting off topic. We've probably had a thread discussing this issue in the past right?

I'm sure we have discussed before.