Kamila Valieva: Anti-doping Case and Follow-ups

[saine]

They followed the procedures because it was shown that they had no obligation to retain the 7th to 9th tests that were apparently inconclusive.

As aliquots 7-9 are not the basis for the reported confirmation procedure result, they are not included in the Laboratory Documentation package. Aliquot 10 is the basis for the reported confirmation procedure result and therefore included in the Laboratory Documentation package.”

It has been explained to you many times how the lab followed the procedures and what is involved from users who have experience working in a lab. You can continue to search for ways to prove that the lab was to blame. But it will not exonerate Kamila Valieva from the positive result.

Kamila Valieva accepted the results were positive after failing to prove any wrong doing on the part of the lab.

The lab is not to blame for her ban.

 

[Skating91]

It has been explained to you many times how the lab followed the procedures and what is involved from users who have experience working in a lab. You can continue to search for ways to prove that the lab was to blame. But it will not exonerate Kamila Valieva from the positive result.

Kamila Valieva accepted the results were positive after failing to prove any wrong doing on the part of the lab.

The lab is not to blame for her ban.

Yes, they followed the procedures. The results from the 7th-9th tests did not need to be retained and no longer exist. The procedure does not compel the lab to retain them.

 

[4everchan]

Yes, they followed the procedures. The results from the 7th-9th tests did not need to be retained and no longer exist. The procedure does not compel the lab to retain them.

As aliquots 7-9 are not the basis for the reported confirmation procedure result, they are not included in the Laboratory Documentation package.

You are making conclusions on your own. The aliquots 7-9 were not included in the documentation doesn't mean they no longer exists. It simply means that they are not useful to the proof presented by the lab. Again, there is no discussion to be had on the lab, the samples, anything like that. Kamila has tested positive and accepted the results. She presented a defence that was not conclusive. She got a 4 year ban and her results are stripped. Nothing will be changed here.

At this point, the only discussion to be had is whether or not ROC and /or Canada will appeal. It seems likely. But they are not appealing on anthing Kamila. Just on "recalculating points"

ROC will not get the gold medal. I am curious to see what kind of arguments they will bring up.

Canada may have a stronger case. They have explained what rule they are disputing.

This will take some more time. The ISU could have avoided that by making a more sensible decision. Now, the athletes from USA and Japan will still have to wait and wait and wait.

 

[Skating91]

As aliquots 7-9 are not the basis for the reported confirmation procedure result, they are not included in the Laboratory Documentation package.

You are making conclusions on your own. The aliquots 7-9 were not included in the documentation doesn't mean they no longer exists. It simply means that they are not useful to the proof presented by the lab. Again, there is no discussion to be had on the lab, the samples, anything like that. Kamila has tested positive and accepted the results. She presented a defence that was not conclusive. She got a 4 year ban and her results are stripped. Nothing will be changed here.

At this point, the only discussion to be had is whether or not ROC and /or Canada will appeal. It seems likely. But they are not appealing on anthing Kamila. Just on "recalculating points"

ROC will not get the gold medal. I am curious to see what kind of arguments they will bring up.

Canada may have a stronger case. They have explained what rule they are disputing.

This will take some more time. The ISU could have avoided that by making a more sensible decision. Now, the athletes from USA and Japan will still have to wait and wait and wait.

I'm saying there's gap in the rules were they don't have to include those previous results in the package they submit. There should be complete transparency when playing God with peoples careers. The more evidence, the most information the better right?

She didn't have to present a conclusive case to get less than a 4 year ban, other child athletes have received reprimands for multiple performance enhancing drugs and were able to blame contamination or sabotage. A 22 year old American swimmer was able to escape with a 2 year ban with her best explanation being a crazy tap water defense (how is any of this conclusive and this is an adult how can WADA accept this?). Recidivist steroid doper Jon Jones escaped with a 1 year 3 month ban by USADA. This is an adult with multiple doping offenses. WADA found all of this acceptable. Yet they were gunning for 4 years for a child before the investigation had concluded. It seems almost discriminatory to target Kamila like this. I think it is highly unethical of WADA to target a child like this when have been very lenient in other similar cases with seemingly far fetched unproven theories produced by athletes.

They did make a sensible decision, the alternative opens up a can of worms we could have teams stripped of medals in team events through no fault of their own 10 years down the line. You were hoping Russia would miss out on a medal, and like many people had used erroneous logic that benefited Canada to recalculate the standings.

ISU's job is to APPLY THE DISQUALIFICATION. That means putting a line through Kamila's result making HER RESULT null and void. That means the first places and 20 points are null and void, and removed from the team points. Also, top 4 of the short program went through to the free skate, therefore Germany should have been in the free skate not ROC. We cannot go back in time and let Germany have a free skate now.

 

[4everchan]

I'm saying there's gap in the rules were they don't have to include those previous results in the package they submit. There should be complete transparency when playing God with peoples careers. The more evidence, the most information the better right?

There is no gap. They are being transparent. The evidence is provided. Read the report again.

For the rest, I am not interested in discussing how Kamila is a victim of WADA, ISU or CAS. Or how her case is treated differently from any other random athlete. Her lawyers did all they could with the information provided to them. That's all there is to say. That verdict is not going to get overturned. Sooner or later, Kamila's fans will have to accept it. In any case, she's already been serving 2 years of her suspension and still managed to compete during that time... In my opinion, she got a good deal not being provisionally suspended until the hearing.. That would really have meant 4 years without skating.. now, only what 22 months to go? She's very lucky.

For the ISU recalculation, funny how suddenly I, and many others according to you, are all illogical... yet the Canadian Olympic Committee and Skate Canada have already provided intelligence in how they will argue the case.

If you have read my posts from a long time ago, I often suggested that the decision would be to DQ the whole team otherwise it may get messy as recalculating is not traditionally done. If you have read my posts more recently, I have carefully explained how ROC keeps 2 points from Kamila even once DQed. In the end, as a very strong advocate for clean sport, I am not hiding that my wish was that the entire ROC team got DQed, despite my affection for a certain Russian skater ISU said otherwise.... but unfortunately for them, they are really bad at math and did open a can of worms. If anyone here is lacking logic, it's the ISU. Not surprising considering how the IJS is built So I am just going to let the COC/Skate Canada lawyers do their jobs. They do have a serious case. Much more serious than ROC gunning for gold. They may win or not. It won't change my life. Time for me to move on until there are future developments.

I came here today to post the news about the COC's reaction to the ISU statement... until there is anything new, I won't be back... especially if it is to discuss aliquots, strawberries and young swimmers.


Here is the updated article (in English this time) from the CBC, about the COC's position.

Enjoy !

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/winter/figure-skating/canadian-olympic-committee-appeal-russian-figure-skating-bronze-1.7111049

 

[beachmouse]

At some point in the future we will get a similar case, to an adult not a child, to an American not a Russian, and we'll see if WADA starts saying they will automatically appeal and seek four years before the investigation has even been completed.

And if they come up with an excuse such as my tap water was contaminated with a drug no-one uses in America and give less than four years, then I expect it to be a very easy ruling when it goes to CAS. And this will be adult, not a 15 year old child.

I expect nothing less than every athlete shown no mercy by CAS, no matter the amount, the effectiveness, the circumstances.

You mean how like USADA asked for and was allowed to give a four year suspension to Kyoko Ina when she refused a drug test? It was an out of competition test, and USADA was in good standing at the time so the Americans were allowed to handle it internally.

Ina suspended four years for drug test mishap

Three-time Olympic pairs figure skater Kyoko Ina was suspended for four years Friday for refusing to take a drug test.

www.espn.com

 

[Skating91]

You mean how like USADA asked for and was allowed to give a four year suspension to Kyoko Ina when she refused a drug test? It was an out of competition test, and USADA was in good standing at the time so the Americans were allowed to handle it internally.

Ina suspended four years for drug test mishap

Three-time Olympic pairs figure skater Kyoko Ina was suspended for four years Friday for refusing to take a drug test.

www.espn.com

They should pursue 4 years for any adult with dope in their system, who evades testing (to avoid a positive result obviously).

USADA have been very weak on doping in recent years, as evidenced by the 15 year old swimmer who got caught multiple times but still competes, the soft approach on recidivists as I mentioned, allowing adult swimmers use the absurd tap water defense.

 

[lariko]

Smart statement, I have to give that to her. I don't believe her, but it's smart and well phrased.

Save for the 'no offence' given to two Olympic champions, let alone all other women who expressed on ice their very best and achieved much more clean, than Valieva did doped. Again, the black-is-white Russian think.

 

[SmileHappy34]

If u drop the Russian team's scores, this is how the short program total would come out without Russian in it (by moving skaters one place up after dq team)
USA -36
Japan- 34
Canada and Georgia tied for third with 28. Ñote Georgia didn't skate in the free portion in the Olympic team event

China 27 points to round out the top 5 teams.

6th Italy with 24 points.
7th Czechoslovakia with 21 points

Tied for 8th Germany and Ukraine with 13 points.
Do u want to reskate the team event because Georgia with dq didn't skate in free at Olympics?

 

[SmileHappy34]

They should pursue 4 years for any adult with dope in their system, who evades testing (to avoid a positive result obviously).

USADA have been very weak on doping in recent years, as evidenced by the 15 year old swimmer who got caught multiple times but still competes, the soft approach on recidivists as I mentioned, allowing adult swimmers use the absurd tap water defense.

While I agree not right to give an Automatic suspension on refusal of test, I think it goes to assume guilt. Why not take test if u are innocent. I don't agree with assume guilty just because they deny or refuse to take test.

 

[TallyT]

While I agree not right to give an Automatic suspension on refusal of test, I think it goes to assume guilt. Why not take test if u are innocent. I don't agree with assume guilty just because they deny or refuse to take test.

I'm not sure I understand you, are you saying if they refuse a test... they should all be presumed innocent and no action taken?

Refusing is a separate and equally serious violation in its own right. It's in the rules as such. They all know and choose to sign on for it by choosing to compete. Any athlete who does not want to follow this rule knows the possible consequences (me, I think it would be actually easier to take the test and then plead misadventure than refuse and then argue it was innocent because... what?)

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

If u drop the Russian team's scores, this is how the short program total would come out without Russian in it (by moving skaters one place up after dq team)
USA -36
Japan- 34
Canada and Georgia tied for third with 28. Ñote Georgia didn't skate in the free portion in the Olympic team event

China 27 points to round out the top 5 teams.

6th Italy with 24 points.
7th Czechoslovakia with 21 points

Tied for 8th Germany and Ukraine with 13 points.
Do u want to reskate the team event because Georgia with dq didn't skate in free at Olympics?

That’s not how DQs work. When people get caught doping and stripped of medals, everyone moves up a spot - they don’t re-run the races/heats/prelims/etc. certainly not years later. If someone gets DQ’ed with time still left to replace/add someone who didn’t make it through otherwise that might be accommodated but it wouldn’t make sense in this case. Georgia still ends up 6th (although personally I think they should be 5th, and ROC entirely DQed - or any nation whose team had someone who cheated).

 

[beachmouse]

They should pursue 4 years for any adult with dope in their system, who evades testing (to avoid a positive result obviously).

USADA have been very weak on doping in recent years, as evidenced by the 15 year old swimmer who got caught multiple times but still competes, the soft approach on recidivists as I mentioned, allowing adult swimmers use the absurd tap water defense.

USADA had zero involvement in the swimmer’s positive drug test- it occurred in an event at Barbados at an event where it doesn’t look like any USA athletes participated (Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands probably meet the geography requirements to send athletes if they wanted to but didn’t)

It was Jamaican anti-doping that opted not to sanction her, and the way the anti-doping system is set up is that each ADA has to honor what sanctions, if any, that a ‘home’ ADA has given.

USADA isn’t allowed to say that Jamaica got it wrong and that she should have been given more. The Russians don’t get to say that Justin Gatlin should have been banned for life after his second doping positive. (Though many American track fans also think that would have been a good idea) The Australians don’t get to say that Sun Yang should have to serve the full eight year ban he was given for a second offense.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

It’s actually possible to get a TUE for certain steroid classes. Prednisolone, a steroid, is one of the most effective treatments for a Crohn’s disease flare-up. However you do need to have extremely well-documented Crohn’s disease- think a binder full of medical records rather than simple doctor’s note because of the risk of a flare up right before a competition where drug testers will be present.

They would never give TUE to Russian athletes in a current situation, to be fair... And TUE system is a mess. If you need TUE to compete, better not to compete at all, because that only means that competing at that level is not good for your health. TUE should not exist at all, that is the major thing ruining athletes health by allowing them to compete on medicines, as they are "doped", instead to help treating athletes health properly... I mean, do you know what medicine Simone Biles is taking in order to compete, that is a really strong medicine who can screw your general health, as your psychological and social wellbeing in the future... Simple solution is if you are not feeling well, just dont compete at the highest level at that moment, but tell that to Kamilas or Simones or many other athletes authorities and organizations who have profit from them...

 

[jorge2912]

We've seen skaters of a particular origin consistently lowballed for no valid reason, Russian skaters have not been able to participate for nearly two years, still people think there's some kind of ISU conspiracy to favor Russia.

that's due to a no sense war and a country that begins a war nobody will supports it neither are Olympics or sports values .

will focus on Valieva case for keep the harmony.

The ROC must face any kind of sanction like a fine against the directors or directorate. like the Russian argument was "Swedish lab sent the results late" , the most logical is wait that results and not take risk signing up skaters to OG without test results or try another test in other lab authorized by WADA that can be able to sends ASAP the results and in that way takes decisions and fulfill the dates . if Valieva is facing consequences. why ROC doesn't face any consequences for that case in particular? is unfair that all the sanction weight be just for her and ROC "as clean" as blue skies.

 

[4everchan]

They would never give TUE to Russian athletes, to be fair... And TUE system is a mess. If you need TUE to compete, better not to compete at all, because that only means that competing at that level is not good for your health. TUE should not exist at all, that is the major thing ruining athletes health by allowing them to compete on medicines, as they are "doped", instead to help treating athletes health properly... I mean, do you know what medicine Simone Biles is taking in order to compete, that is a really strong medicine who can screw your general health, as your psychological and social wellbeing in the future... Simple solutions is if you are not feeling well, just dont compete at the highest level, do something else, but tell that to Kamilas or Simones or many other athletes authorities and organizations who have profit from them...

I think it's time to kill the TUE myth in this thread.

A diabetic who receives a TUE doesn't do that to enhance performance but to live. It's pretty difficult for a normal (aka not an elite athlete) diabetic person to control their blood sugar with insulin already. You don't take these drugs if you don't need them, unless you are a doper

Same with many other drugs. TUEs are there when an athlete has a diagnosed medical condition requiring treatment to live. They are not there to get away with PEDs. I won't discuss anyone's TUEs because doing so is being unfair : we do not have access to their medical files.

However, here is the kicker, Kamila's athlete heart doesn't need treatment. So there is no way she would have been given a TUE.

I came here to make clear that TUEs are very regulated and do not give an advantage to some athletes. They will most likely take these drugs outside of their sportive career, for life.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I think it's time to kill the TUE myth in this thread.

A diabetic who receives a TUE doesn't do that to enhance performance but to live. It's pretty difficult for a normal (aka not an elite athlete) diabetic person to control they blood sugar with insulin already. You don't take these drugs if you don't need them, unless you are a doper

Same with many other drugs. TUEs are there when an athlete has a diagnosed medical condition requiring treatment to live. They are not there to get away with PEDs. I won't discuss anyone's TUEs because doing so is being unfair : we do not have access to their medical files.

And those people shouldnt be involved in a professional sport, in order to preserve their health

 

[beachmouse]

They would never give TUE to Russian athletes in current situation, to be fair... And TUE system is a mess. If you need TUE to compete, better not to compete at all, because that only means that competing at that level is not good for your health. TUE should not exist at all, that is the major thing ruining athletes health by allowing them to compete on medicines, as they are "doped",

There are any number of medical conditions that are just incredibly unpleasant and uncomfortable but not dangerous. And which often have no relation to athletic performance. Take hemorrhoids- French swimmer Fred Bosquet was suffering from them- they are something that should be treated in many cases but are not a barrier to competing at a high or even recreational level. He served a minor doping suspension because he grabbed a tube of cream to treat the condition while he was on training camp in Italy and hadn’t realized that even it was sold as the same brand and type that he had previously used to treat his condition back home, the Italian formula of the cream had a WADA-controlled substance in it while the French-sold version did not.

So for a regularly Italy-based athlete who had the same condition as Bosquet, shouldn’t they be able to apply for a waiver use an over the counter version of the cream sold in any Italian pharmacy?

Myself, I use steroids for about three weeks every spring. The pine pollen here is horrendous, it’s common to develop a strong allergy to it, and without the steroid eye drops to control inflammation, my vision can blur enough that I can’t read the pages of a book. Weaker over the counter eye drops don’t work on my blurred vision- I’ve tried them all- so I use the drops my ophthalmologist recommends. It’s not an inherently dangerous condition; it’s just one that can leave it unsafe for me to drive to practice if I was still swimming with a team.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

There are any number of medical conditions that are just incredibly unpleasant and uncomfortable but not dangerous. And which often have no relation to athletic performance. Take hemorrhoids- French swimmer Fred Bosquet was suffering from them- they are something that should be treated in many cases but are not a barrier to competing at a high or even recreational level. He served a minor doping suspension because he grabbed a tube of cream to treat the condition while he was on training camp in Italy and hadn’t realized that even it was sold as the same brand and type that he had previously used to treat his condition back home, the Italian formula of the cream had a WADA-controlled substance in it while the French-sold version did not.

So for a regularly Italy-based athlete who had the same condition as Bosquet, shouldn’t they be able to apply for a waiver use an over the counter version of the cream sold in any Italian pharmacy?

Myself, I use steroids for about three weeks every spring. The pine pollen here is horrendous, it’s common to develop a strong allergy to it, and without the steroid eye drops to control inflammation, my vision can blur enough that I can’t read the pages of a book. Weaker over the counter eye drops don’t work on my blurred vision- I’ve tried them all- so I use the drops my ophthalmologist recommends. It’s not an inherently dangerous condition; it’s just one that can leave it unsafe for me to drive to practice if I was still swimming with a team.

My point is that is different when we common people are using those medicines in our every day life and in a very different settings, comparing to what life of proffesional athletes is today. You used your medicines and stayed home treating yourself, how the athletes are treating the same condition with a obligation to train every day is completely different...

 

[4everchan]

And those people shouldnt be involved in a professional sport, in order to preserve their health

really?
Let's say i am a diabetic practicing archery or even a sport like high jump or shot put. Should I be told that I am not allowed to compete ?
Diabetics can definitely practice many sports and be very healthy doing so. Some can even practice sports like swimming and long distance running.. Each case is different and that's why it's not easy getting a TUE. The whole point of sport is about fair play. TUEs provide a fair chance to those who need some drugs to live. If some cheaters want to mess with the system, it's up to them. I was a swimmer, not elite.. just good enough for regionals when I didn't grow up to be 6'5'' like some others. Even at that level, fair play was so important. It was ingrained in us. Coaches would teach us these values. Unfortunate how this is not as widespread, isn't it ? Sport can be such a wonderful experience.